Rent (1 Viewer)

chiefdave said:

But that's not all we generate. What about naming rights, what about advertising (do you think we get paid for all those Wasps adverts around the pitch?). what about the advertising sites in the concourse (again do you think we get paid for all the Wasps adverts down there?).

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We get all match day advertising thst we bring in.
Thing is you don't get much from smiths skips or the local spas look around at the next March.
Right in front of block 16 there are 2 boards advertising the phone number for CCFC for you to put an ad up they have been empty all season, why?
How much was the shirt sponsorship?
We are fourth division not a lot of money being paid out that low down I'm afraid.
How much was the Ricoh deal?
We are not that good of a pull unfortunately.

stupot07 said:

We pay match day costs which contribute towards maintenance, cleaning, etc.

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How much?

We love SISU. They pay our rent.

Houdi said:

Some fair points there, but for a club that's only been here just over 2 years to get crowds over 30,000 is pretty impressive, or maybe worrying is a better word. It doesn't appear that they will be struggling team wise in the near future, so probably they are going to be a successful for years to come. As each year goes by, they will inevitably become more embedded in the community. Looking at the pictures on Saturday there looked to be a lot of young fans there, and for them they will just see them as a Coventry team.
Everybody I've spoken to who has gone to a game,and I hate to say this ,all talk of an enjoyable match day experience,some of these are CCFC fans as well.
I'm not sure of their match prices but if the £36 adult price is right for their next game,and they sell near 33,000 tickets,and you add on TV broadcasting, huge corporate sales, food sales, beer sales car parking sales, perimeter advertising sales, merchandising sales,programme? sales,that will a huge profit for them. They are guaranteed huge crowds each season from games against Leicester/Northampton and probably even Worcester.
Oh and yes agreed CCC are not innocent in our current mess. Just feel we are sleepwalking to an irrelevance,if the current situation carries on much longer, and our owners simply couldn't care less.

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Houdi, some fair points from you too.

There are undoubtedly many things that Wasps do very well, not least the matchday experience which I hear is excellent and well managed. They've actually figured out that when people go to games they'll want to be welcomed and probably want to spend money on food and drink whilst they are there! I would that our owners had figured that out...

Again, and this isn't intended to be provocative, the fact is that Wasps currently aren't profitable and they've got a £35m bond floating over them. Putting aside all opinions regarding them being here, the point I'd make is that I don't think that's a particularly solid business model.

In many ways, I can draw a parallel with what's happening with Premiership Rugby at the moment and what happened to FL football at the time of ITV Digital. In essence BT are pumping money into something that isn't a global brand, and that actually attracts quite small levels of viewing figures (around 150,000 when compared to Premier League Football, 1,500,000+). When ITV Digital went under it also buried a number of clubs who had banked on that TV money. If BT Sport ever pulls the plug then it's bound to have an impact on rugby in the same way, and it's always the most leveraged clubs that go first. At £35m, Wasps are hugely leveraged.

The other thing is that even if the bandwagon keeps rolling, we've seen that top-level football clubs can still manage to blow it all trying to keep up (Portsmouth, Leeds, etc). As wages start to spiral in Rugby, I'm not sure that the lesson has been learned - and the gap from top-flight rugby to the other divisions is even bigger than it is in football, so the fall is even harder. Example: London Welsh established 1885, relegated from the top-flight in 2015, liquidated in 2016.

Anyway mate, just a long-winded way of saying that however well Wasps appear to be doing, and completely regardless of the rights and wrongs of them being here, I politely differ on the financial side. In absolutely honesty I wouldn't be putting money into the club as an investment vehicle, which I think is always the acid test for these things.

SimonGilbert said:

Chinese whispers = Attributable quotes which are contradictory.

We've reported exactly what was said. Up to you to decide who is telling the truth... Or if it lies somewhere in the middle.

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A one liner can be turned into a front page story by a good journalist.
Now a great journalist like yourself .........


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Grendel said:

He was on an initial month loan which I assume was to do with transfer regulations. Either way Mowbray was going to not renew and the only reason he signed him till the end of the season was because he failed to get Sam Ricketts from Swindon in March.

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Fiction can be fun. I think we failed to get Ricketts from Wolves didn't we? He went to Swindon. Anyway to suggest that he didn't want him only to go on and sign him permanently in the same window when he actually did sign the player he did apparently want instead just goes to show how spurious your post is. In fact Mowbray went on to sign both players twice. Stokes was very lucky considering Mowbray didn't want him.

Is there literally nothing that you will either rewrite or make up.

stupot07 said:

We pay match day costs which contribute towards maintenance, cleaning, etc.

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I understand matchday to mean matchday - not stadium, repainting, repair etc..we would pay matchday plus stadium maintenance, depreciation costs if we owned our own anyway. So matchday is the same either way and "not taking a hit".

yeah does always seem to be a reason why something that happened that you didnt think or want to happen happened.

e.g bigi will accept peanuts, mowbray only won 4/5 end of season because no one else interested,robins only won with this squad because oppoistion nothing to play for etc

caveat king

duffer said:

Houdi, some fair points from you too.

There are undoubtedly many things that Wasps do very well, not least the matchday experience which I hear is excellent and well managed. They've actually figured out that when people go to games they'll want to be welcomed and probably want to spend money on food and drink whilst they are there! I would that our owners had figured that out...

Again, and this isn't intended to be provocative, the fact is that Wasps currently aren't profitable and they've got a £35m bond floating over them. Putting aside all opinions regarding them being here, the point I'd make is that I don't think that's a particularly solid business model.

In many ways, I can draw a parallel with what's happening with Premiership Rugby at the moment and what happened to FL football at the time of ITV Digital. In essence BT are pumping money into something that isn't a global brand, and that actually attracts quite small levels of viewing figures (around 150,000 when compared to Premier League Football, 1,500,000+). When ITV Digital went under it also buried a number of clubs who had banked on that TV money. If BT Sport ever pulls the plug then it's bound to have an impact on rugby in the same way, and it's always the most leveraged clubs that go first. At £35m, Wasps are hugely leveraged.

The other thing is that even if the bandwagon keeps rolling, we've seen that top-level football clubs can still manage to blow it all trying to keep up (Portsmouth, Leeds, etc). As wages start to spiral in Rugby, I'm not sure that the lesson has been learned - and the gap from top-flight rugby to the other divisions is even bigger than it is in football, so the fall is even harder. Example: London Welsh established 1885, relegated from the top-flight in 2015, liquidated in 2016.

Anyway mate, just a long-winded way of saying that however well Wasps appear to be doing, and completely regardless of the rights and wrongs of them being here, I politely differ on the financial side. In absolutely honesty I wouldn't be putting money into the club as an investment vehicle, which I think is always the acid test for these things.

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Fingers crossed they go the way of London Welsh.

duffer said:

Houdi, some fair points from you too.

There are undoubtedly many things that Wasps do very well, not least the matchday experience which I hear is excellent and well managed. They've actually figured out that when people go to games they'll want to be welcomed and probably want to spend money on food and drink whilst they are there! I would that our owners had figured that out...

Again, and this isn't intended to be provocative, the fact is that Wasps currently aren't profitable and they've got a £35m bond floating over them. Putting aside all opinions regarding them being here, the point I'd make is that I don't think that's a particularly solid business model.

In many ways, I can draw a parallel with what's happening with Premiership Rugby at the moment and what happened to FL football at the time of ITV Digital. In essence BT are pumping money into something that isn't a global brand, and that actually attracts quite small levels of viewing figures (around 150,000 when compared to Premier League Football, 1,500,000+). When ITV Digital went under it also buried a number of clubs who had banked on that TV money. If BT Sport ever pulls the plug then it's bound to have an impact on rugby in the same way, and it's always the most leveraged clubs that go first. At £35m, Wasps are hugely leveraged.

The other thing is that even if the bandwagon keeps rolling, we've seen that top-level football clubs can still manage to blow it all trying to keep up (Portsmouth, Leeds, etc). As wages start to spiral in Rugby, I'm not sure that the lesson has been learned - and the gap from top-flight rugby to the other divisions is even bigger than it is in football, so the fall is even harder. Example: London Welsh established 1885, relegated from the top-flight in 2015, liquidated in 2016.

Anyway mate, just a long-winded way of saying that however well Wasps appear to be doing, and completely regardless of the rights and wrongs of them being here, I politely differ on the financial side. In absolutely honesty I wouldn't be putting money into the club as an investment vehicle, which I think is always the acid test for these things.

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You wouldn't be, but the real test is what others do. What is the price of the bonds if you were to buy them? Also, as we discussed on a different thread ( if city fans would put money in to back Hoffmann's bid through shares ), there maybe wealthy supporters who are not only there for the investment, but who want them to succeed.

Grendel said:

We know Mr Eastwood struggles with geography. He went on record to assure fans at Wycombe that the club remained committed to the south west area of London. Then he claimed that the move to Coventry reduced the travel time for many fans.

This was odd as he then stated 92% of fans were of a CV postcode. Perhaps maths also isn't a strong point.

We know see that he has recollection problems as well.

Poor chap

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Well he certainly knew where there was an empty purpose built stadium with everything needed attached
going for a song, got the deal done and as a consequence seem to be going from strength to strength.
Tim on the other hand was brushing up on his geography by seeing how the land lies in Northamptonshire,
Whilst practicing his "maths for beginners " by counting the crowds entering Sixfields.:emoji_mortar_board::emoji_scream:

fernandopartridge said:

Fingers crossed they go the way of London Welsh.

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You do know we couldn't afford to run the stadium from L2?

italiahorse said:

You do know we couldn't afford to run the stadium from L2?

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We couldn't afford to run it from the Cayman Islands.:emoji_smirk:

italiahorse said:

You do know we couldn't afford to run the stadium from L2?

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How did Portsmouth manage running a big stadium in L2?

chiefdave said:

How did Portsmouth manage running a big stadium in L2?

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Big crowds and already own it ?
It's delusional to think we can run it.? Even Fisher says we can't afford it.
Best we can do is piggy back on Wasps until the situation improves.

chiefdave said:

How did Portsmouth manage running a big stadium in L2?

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Because its fan owned, I think they all take a dustpan and brush to the game with them
And clean up afterwards.

letsallsingtogether said:

How much?

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It was £10k per game on the old deal, IIRC when they initially tried to renogoatiate prior to sixfields they wanted to put it up to £12k pa no idea what we pay on this deal, but we will be paying something and that money goes towards maintenance, etc. Just think its disingenuous to make out we only pay rent and nothing else.

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chiefdave said:

How did Portsmouth manage running a big stadium in L2?

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Took them ages to open it fully didn't it? Plus how many do they get every home game? Under SISU's stewardship we wouldn't get anywhere near that in league 2, even if someone at SISU did work out how to put a bid in to buy the Ricoh.

martcov said:

You wouldn't be, but the real test is what others do. What is the price of the bonds if you were to buy them? Also, as we discussed on a different thread ( if city fans would put money in to back Hoffmann's bid through shares ), there maybe wealthy supporters who are not only there for the investment, but who want them to succeed.

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Bond price currently is about 105, which I think is 5% above where they started out. There's been fluctuation up and down but from what I can see this isn't a share typically bought to trade in any case - some will be sitting on it for the 5% return, some (as you point out) will simply be emotional investors doing it for the good of the club. Where there have been large trading volumes post-release, it seems to me that the price has typically fallen - that indicates to me that there may not be a long queue to take this on.

Regardless,I don't think that takes away from any of the things that I've said. This is a business which has been running at an operational loss despite doing very well on the pitch, which is highly geared, and which is running on a model (sports team, with TV money as a key revenue stream, with ever increasing salaries for talent) that has clearly failed and failed badly for other businesses.

The security on the bond is, if I'm correct, the value of the lease on the Ricoh. The logic of that still escapes me in truth- what's the true value of the Ricoh lease if Wasps go bust?

martcov said:

Are we taking a financial hit though? We pay 100000 rent and get over 70000 back from the 50% profits on F&B. We have no responsibility for stadium maintenance etc..

The present rent deal is not really 'taking a hit'. We played about 26 games at a net rent cost of a bit more than 1000,00 a game. About 12 pence per spectator per game.

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I maybe wrong but I'm sure it's 10% on f&b

duffer said:

Bond price currently is about 105, which I think is 5% above where they started out. There's been fluctuation up and down but from what I can see this isn't a share typically bought to trade in any case - some will be sitting on it for the 5% return, some (as you point out) will simply be emotional investors doing it for the good of the club. Where there have been large trading volumes post-release, it seems to me that the price has typically fallen - that indicates to me that there may not be a long queue to take this on.

Regardless,I don't think that takes away from any of the things that I've said. This is a business which has been running at an operational loss despite doing very well on the pitch, which is highly geared, and which is running on a model (sports team, with TV money as a key revenue stream, with ever increasing salaries for talent) that has clearly failed and failed badly for other businesses.

The security on the bond is, if I'm correct, the value of the lease on the Ricoh. The logic of that still escapes me in truth- what's the true value of the Ricoh lease if Wasps go bust?

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I agree. The bond price is not that reliable due to the low liquidity. The next set of accounts will be interesting to see if the on field success has moved them from a loss to a profit. Maybe it has? We don't really know yet. But if they have a couple of bad seasons they could really be struggling.

Speng said:

I maybe wrong but I'm sure it's 10% on f&b

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Think it's 50% of profits after. Compass /IEC levy their charges.
Think we used to take around £900k at Highfield Road with around £300K profit twenty years ago similarly with Compass operating the catering there.

I really don't think the catering is worth much for a club in L2 or even L1. It's just a distraction by Fisher to hide his incompetence.

singers_pore said:

I really don't think the catering is worth much for a club in L2 or even L1. It's just a distraction by Fisher to hide his incompetence.

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It must be a truly Gigantic slice of catering if it hides Tim Fishers incompetence.:emoji_cake:

stupot07 said:

It was £10k per game on the old deal, IIRC when they initially tried to renogoatiate prior to sixfields they wanted to put it up to £12k pa no idea what we pay on this deal, but we will be paying something and that money goes towards maintenance, etc. Just think its disingenuous to make out we only pay rent and nothing else.

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Who said they only paid rent and nothing else?

You are crying about us having to pay something without knowing how much or little we pay.
I know the matchday costs go towards stewards policing etc and it has been quite high lately.

Brylowes said:

It must be a truly Gigantic slice of catering if it hides Tim Fishers incompetence.:emoji_cake:

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Beat me to it... I was thinking of something like this...

letsallsingtogether said:

Who said they only paid rent and nothing else?

You are crying about us having to pay something without knowing how much or little we pay.
I know the matchday costs go towards stewards policing etc and it has been quite high lately.

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Who's crying? I was just pointing out we don't just pay £100k, and that an element of the matchday costs will include wear and tear towards maintenance, along with cleaning, utilities etc. We pay stewards and police direct, not through ACL.


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stupot07 said:

Who's crying? I was just pointing out we don't just pay £100k, and that an element of the matchday costs will include wear and tear towards maintenance, along with cleaning, utilities etc. We pay stewards and police direct, not through ACL.


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Rent usually includes wear and tear. Matchday costs will always be there. So how are we taking a hit at 100000 - 70000 F&B? = 12p per person per game?

italiahorse said:

You do know we couldn't afford to run the stadium from L2?

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No doubt we'd get a cheap interim deal until the council dragged in a new club from Delhi or something.

#CityofKabbadi

dongonzalos said:

Nick Eastwood is replacing David Armstrong as Wasps CEO in June.
So he did an interview.
In he said he was open to talks with club regarding rent. That he was surprised the club haven't been in touch yet.
He also said Wasps haven't been asked to take part in mediation with anyone.
The CET asked the MP if he had asked Wasps. The MP said he sent them a letter.
Some on here are taking that to mean Nick Eastwood is being economical with the truth.
Others are saying who just sends a letter and leaves it at that.
Anyway at least now the club can ask Wasps for talks and the MP can pick up the phone and ask Wasps if they will mediate.

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Defence shields on again. How do you know the club haven't been talking and they are lying about that as well?

Thought those old legals had to be dropped first?

Grendel said:

Defence shields on again. How do you know the club haven't been talking and they are lying about that as well?

Thought those old legals had to be dropped first?

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That would involve the club (or to be more precise, those tasked with running it) being proactive not reactive and we all know that isn't something they do. You yourself came up with the theory that the only reason we don't own the Ricoh is because the council didn't go running to SISU and say this is what Wasps have offered, will you match it. So you should be more aware than anyone of that. Or is it a case of they can be proactive when suits?

skybluetony176 said:

That would involve the club (or to be more precise, those tasked with running it) being proactive not reactive and we all know that isn't something they do. You yourself came up with the theory that the only reason we don't own the Ricoh is because the council didn't go running to SISU and say this is what Wasps have offered, will you match it. So you should be more aware than anyone of that. Or is it a case of they can be proactive when suits?

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Who is the club? We are supposed to be getting a CEO, Technical Director and Ops Director ( was advertised) and Tim is "swamped" because of his own business. There is nothing much there. Who would have the authority or time to negotiate?

martcov said:

Who is the club? We are supposed to be getting a CEO, Technical Director and Ops Director ( was advertised) and Tim is "swamped" because of his own business. There is nothing much there. Who would have the authority or time to negotiate?

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Yeah but Tim has found time to be in negotiations all along. Grendull said so, so it must be true.