General Election (2 Viewers)

Grendel said:

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

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Actually he already announced that we were having a referendum and set the date before seeking reform of the EU. As usual you have your horse and cart the wrong way round. The referendum was happening with or without reform. You could argue that the result was an effect of the reform deal offered not going far enough but we certainly didn't have the referendum because the reform talks failed to secure what Cameron was after.

NorthernWisdom said:

Some of us who voted for remain would have quite happily gone for the second option there, too.

It's what's utterly ridiculous. There are the hardcore on either end of the extreme, but most people are not *that* moved by whether we're in Europe or not.

Personally I think we'll see a second referendum when negotiations to leave don't go as hoped. It'd be appropriate then, too. The only issue would be, whether there'd be a rebellious 'fuck 'em' vote which'd say for us to bog off regardless, leaving us in an even worse position!

I do think the mood of the country will change, however, when the detail becomes apparent, as opposed to the wishy-washy populist phrases.

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Agreed. I'd quite happily have voted to leave the EU and join the EEU (think that's correct) which is what Norway are a member of.

skybluetony176 said:

Agreed. I'd quite happily have voted to leave the EU and join the EEU (think that's correct) which is what Norway are a member of.

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Which is likely to be the final outcome.

Sick Boy said:

Which is likely to be the final outcome.

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Hopefully. Always thought leaving the EU and joining the EEU was a good idea years and years before brexit was even mentioned so we could take back control of things like fishing (because the EU regulations for fishing are completely mental and detrimental to fishing stocks rather than protect them like they're supposed to), farming etc. etc.

Grendel said:

Lol.

Are you seriously telling me that the prospect of a government committed to raising business taxes, mass capital expenditure, borrowing against a GDP that's borrowed out would have zero impact on business confidence and the exchange?

As for rising costs - that's odd - you keep blathering on about debt levels not mattering and labours borrowing record but ignore the impact it always has on inflation, interest rates and costs. Inflation rose 20% above wage growth the last time we had a real labour government.

You are clueless.

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why do you keep going on about what would have happened? It's all conjecture.
Look at what has happened? An absolute mess created by politicians putting their own careers before the national interest.

Uncertainty surrounds almost every facet of British life from well being in old age to the economy to national security.

At some point you're going to have to stop worrying about what might have happened under Corbyn and face up to the mess we're in and the charlatans and opportunists we unfortunately have to rely on to get us out of it.

clint van damme said:

Perhaps they don't count as much! I think we're starting to get a good idea of the sub text to this argument from certain people.

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But the job of the British Government is primarily to look after the interests of British Citizens wherever they may be in the world. So to protect the Brits living elsewhere in the EU - why would the Gov't throw away a bargaining chip like some gesture of goodwill which might come back to haunt them later in negotiations. You cannot give assurances o anyone for anything at this early stage without weakening your position. And you cannot negotiate if you have nothing to barter with!

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Grendel said:

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

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Nothing is impossible...everyone and everything has a price

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skybluetony176 said:

Hopefully. Always thought leaving the EU and joining the EEU was a good idea years and years before brexit was even mentioned so we could take back control of things like fishing (because the EU regulations for fishing are completely mental and detrimental to fishing stocks rather than protect them like they're supposed to), farming etc. etc.

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It would mean having no say whatsoever though, yet having to abide by rules and regulations. The fact that there still appears to be little to no idea of a plan for Brexit is disgraceful.

Grendel said:

interest rates and costs. Inflation rose 20% above wage growth the last time we had a real labour government.

.

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That was a single term administration that started life as a minority Government resulting
In a 2nd election being called, it was sandwiched between two Tory governments.
The country at that time was in a very precarious place, and rising inflation was one of the
Many hurdles for any government to try and negotiate.

clint van damme said:

why do you keep going on about what would have happened? It's all conjecture.
Look at what has happened? An absolute mess created by politicians putting their own careers before the national interest.

Uncertainty surrounds almost every facet of British life from well being in old age to the economy to national security.

At some point you're going to have to stop worrying about what might have happened under Corbyn and face up to the mess we're in and the charlatans and opportunists we unfortunately have to rely on to get us out of it.

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Do you and the others who are predominantly left wing believe in a proportional representation voting system or would rather have largest party leads?

Grendel said:

Do you and the others who are predominantly left wing believe in a proportional representation voting system or would rather have largest party leads?

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The current voting system is flawed - I think looking at the 2015 results illustrate it. Take the UKIP example... nearly 4m votes for 1 MP, and then the SNP had 56 MP's with only just over a third of that number.

That said the likelihood of moving to PR would mean hung parliament far more often.... but would you still have the idea of a FPTP type majortity going on?

SkyblueBazza said:

But the job of the British Government is primarily to look after the interests of British Citizens wherever they may be in the world. So to protect the Brits living elsewhere in the EU - why would the Gov't throw away a bargaining chip like some gesture of goodwill which might come back to haunt them later in negotiations. You cannot give assurances o anyone for anything at this early stage without weakening your position. And you cannot negotiate if you have nothing to barter with!

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so why expect the EU to do the same?

Grendel said:

Do you and the others who are predominantly left wing believe in a proportional representation voting system or would rather have largest party leads?

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I don't actually understand enough about it.
I did at one point read up on it, (was there once talk of a referendum), and wasn't it in someones manifesto? (think Lib dems).
As much as I dislike UKIP there return in terms of MPs for the share of the vote they got at the last election, (before last weeks), was unfair.

Sick Boy said:

If you move to Italy and haven't found employment, then you are not legally allowed to remain, I believe this is EU law for all states. However, due to Britain's own fault it has no way of knowing any of this due to not having residency cards. I had to get one in Italy and without that I wouldn't have been allowed access to free healthcare and other services.

Don't forget that I was the UK's own decision to allow such large migration from Eastern Europe when other countries enforced restrictions.

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Yes. Schröder got a delay of several years for freedom of movement for the poorest countries such as Romania.

Germany was to work with Britain to push for reforms to block benefits tourism. Britain is no longer involved in future legislation.

The position of the Tories and their voters on border controls and the moaning about lack of identity control, use of multiple identities by terrorists etc. is absurd. The first thing that Cameron did was to scrap the ID cards - which had been designed and were ready to go - which most EU countries and all Schengen countries have. It wouldn't be British etc..

It makes me angry when people talk about open borders and no one knowing who is in their country e.g. In Germany. ( although they were caught on the hop by the refugee crisis - catching up now ).

If I get in trouble without an ID I get remanded until my court case. E.g. Shoplifting takes about 6 weeks. If I have my ID I can go home and wait for the court case. ( remand happened to one of my staff, so I know what can happen).

In Britain the proof of ID in many places is utility bills. FFS. Some way of knowing who is in your country.

Plus - off topic - an Eygptian told me that the Muslim Brothers on the run in Eygpt prefer Qatar or England as they are the safest refuges for them.

Grendel said:

Do you and the others who are predominantly left wing believe in a proportional representation voting system or would rather have largest party leads?

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I am not left wing, or wasn't until Britain shifted to right wing whilst I was living abroad. Proportional representation with a 5% hurdle to keep the nuts out seems to be very fair. It means more coalitions. Depending on the country, coalitions can be good because more viewpoints are represented and deals can be done before parliament starts again. Our state has just agreed a CDU ( conservative), FDP ( liberal ) and Green coalition. Much more representative than a single party and many arguments have been settled in the coalition contract.

martcov said:

I am not left wing, or wasn't until Britain shifted to right wing whilst I was living abroad. Proportional representation with a 5% hurdle to keep the nuts out seems to be very fair. It means more coalitions. Depending on the country, coalitions can be good because more viewpoints are represented and deals can be done before parliament starts again. Our state has just agreed a CDU ( conservative), FDP ( liberal ) and Green coalition. Much more representative than a single party and many arguments have been settled in the coalition contract.

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I'm like you, I don't really consider myself that left wing.
I just believe that the wealth needs to be distributed a little more evenly than it is now and that we need the safety net of the welfare state to protect the vulnerable.
The OBR have actually said that they think austerity has stifled growth.
Personally I don't think austerity is an economic policy but an ideology to keep the wealth grab going by the small percent of mega rich.
How can austerity be justified when working people are using food banks - to think that's wrong isn't left wing, it just humane.

Strange how last week there was no magic money tree but this week May has said austerity to end. It's been bullshit all along.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

I do get it. I know Brexit has a danger to collapse and be a complete load of shit. The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way if it is done properly. You may say you are worried about the future of your children, but the way most (not all) remainers come across on here is that you are just determined to see the project fail. You don't believe in it. You think we should be ruled by the EU for eternity and anything else is not an option.

I for one do not agree with the current way things are being done, but I also think soft Brexit is nonsense. It's in or out, none of this 'seeing each other' or 'mildly flirting' horseshit.

I know it is in a lot of trouble, it always has been because so many people could not accept the result. That is the first hurdle, which by the looks of the election we are slowly getting over, has been a massive issue. Now we are leaving and there is nothing anyone can do about it, the best thing to do is unite and come together and try and get the best future for everyone as possible.

That does mean putting us first if we have to, although it would be better if all parties could be mature and adult and mutually sort it. We might actually get somewhere that way. That includes Merkel who has been exempt from any criticism from most on here, which is completely ridiculous. With that I am not saying May doesn't deserve any because she is a fucking nightmare too.

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Merkel was against Brexit, but has accepted it. Merkel wants the negotiations to go ahead to reduce the uncertainty. Merkel is mature and sensible- yes I know she allowed refugees from a war zone to seek refuge.

Neither Merkel nor the EU is calling the shots in the UK. We're leaving.

The Conservative party cancelled ID cards, called a referendum, the consequences of which no one has yet properly understood - although many amazingly believe they know what they voted for, and called a snap election to significantly increase their majority whilst claiming there is no money tree and wanting to bring back grammar schools and fox hunting......

May could have added compulsory long bow training as in the Middle Ages - so far behind in her thinking....

You have accused people of bashing Britain and letting Merkel off the hook. Merkel is the "baddy" for the right wing media along with Juncker and the EU in general.

If you put the Mail down for a minute, you will see that the Tory government of the last few years is largely responsible for the way the country is run. The Merkel is blocking our citizens' rights crap is a classic deflection. The article 50 had not been triggered and Merkel said no deals before the procedure has started.

She is the blocker. No. If you went to a pub before opening time, the gaffer would say no service until opening time. He is blocking you from getting a pint, but you should know better than to ask before the pub is open. Same with the Brexit negotiations.

clint van damme said:

I'm like you, I don't really consider myself that left wing.
I just believe that the wealth needs to be distributed a little more evenly than it is now and that we need the safety net of the welfare state to protect the vulnerable.
The OBR have actually said that they think austerity has stifled growth.
Personally I don't think austerity is an economic policy but an ideology to keep the wealth grab going by the small percent of mega rich.
How can austerity be justified when working people are using food banks - to think that's wrong isn't left wing, it just humane.

Strange how last week there was no magic money tree but this week May has said austerity to end. It's been bullshit all along.

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Fantastic post. :emoji_clap::emoji_clap::emoji_clap:

clint van damme said:

so why expect the EU to do the same?

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Personally I don't

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clint van damme said:

I'm like you, I don't really consider myself that left wing.
I just believe that the wealth needs to be distributed a little more evenly than it is now and that we need the safety net of the welfare state to protect the vulnerable.
The OBR have actually said that they think austerity has stifled growth.
Personally I don't think austerity is an economic policy but an ideology to keep the wealth grab going by the small percent of mega rich.
How can austerity be justified when working people are using food banks - to think that's wrong isn't left wing, it just humane.

Strange how last week there was no magic money tree but this week May has said austerity to end. It's been bullshit all along.

Click to expand...

Excellent post and highlights perfectly how far to the right the country has gone.

clint van damme said:

I'm like you, I don't really consider myself that left wing.
I just believe that the wealth needs to be distributed a little more evenly than it is now and that we need the safety net of the welfare state to protect the vulnerable.
The OBR have actually said that they think austerity has stifled growth.
Personally I don't think austerity is an economic policy but an ideology to keep the wealth grab going by the small percent of mega rich.
How can austerity be justified when working people are using food banks - to think that's wrong isn't left wing, it just humane.

Strange how last week there was no magic money tree but this week May has said austerity to end. It's been bullshit all along.

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What is mega-rich nowadays though?

When the well paid worker averages with overtime(/overall 45hrs worked a week) around £40k what what disposable income is left after tax etc? Not a lot! But then there is a big leap from the average worker (I'm including middle management there) to the bosses (£100k/yr?) & the captains of industry (£1m/yr?)

Most of us dream about having £1m - & many of these people are paid it annually even for mediocre successes or even failure!

But they aren't even anywhere near the super/maga-rich...they already have £10m+ stashed away probably (it's all lager undefinable)...& increasing rapidly imo.

Until proper perspective is regained & these myths about some of these guys needing big salaries (as this might turn out to be their last job - errrrrr that could be because they're shit at it!? So shouldn't they seek work in a position they can actually perform well in instead - on lower salary???) the gap will get bigger!


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Sick Boy said:

Excellent post and highlights perfectly how far to the right the country has gone.

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It's gone right due to the ridiculous policies and attitudes from the left.

A bit like turning yourself deliberately gay because you are sick of women.

martcov said:

Merkel was against Brexit, but has accepted it. Merkel wants the negotiations to go ahead to reduce the uncertainty. Merkel is mature and sensible- yes I know she allowed refugees from a war zone to seek refuge.

Neither Merkel nor the EU is calling the shots in the UK. We're leaving.

The Conservative party cancelled ID cards, called a referendum, the consequences of which no one has yet properly understood - although many amazingly believe they know what they voted for, and called a snap election to significantly increase their majority whilst claiming there is no money tree and wanting to bring back grammar schools and fox hunting......

May could have added compulsory long bow training as in the Middle Ages - so far behind in her thinking....

You have accused people of bashing Britain and letting Merkel off the hook. Merkel is the "baddy" for the right wing media along with Juncker and the EU in general.

If you put the Mail down for a minute, you will see that the Tory government of the last few years is largely responsible for the way the country is run. The Merkel is blocking our citizens' rights crap is a classic deflection. The article 50 had not been triggered and Merkel said no deals before the procedure has started.

She is the blocker. No. If you went to a pub before opening time, the gaffer would say no service until opening time. He is blocking you from getting a pint, but you should know better than to ask before the pub is open. Same with the Brexit negotiations.

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Merkel is sensible? You are having a laugh...

As I have said several times, the conservatives are a huge part of the problem here, but that isn't the point I am making. I am saying Merkel is making things worse, and she is.

If you want to use the analogy of the pub, you've got it all wrong. It is more like: Someone is waiting outside and says 'can I buy a pint when you open'. Everyone says it's fine and in their best interests, but one person, the manager of the bar (Merkel) says no. Not 'maybe when we open', a flat 'no'. Why is that? Because she is a fucking child, and even though it should be in her best interests to sell that beer and keep her bar running, she would rather refuse.

Also, I don't read the mail. None of that shit actually. You already know that though.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

It's gone right due to the ridiculous policies and attitudes from the left.

A bit like turning yourself deliberately gay because you are sick of women.

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It's the other way round, Thatcher came along in 1979 and immediately set about destroying
The trade unions, to accomplish this they would break the will of the working man.
Divide and Conquer, as a nation we quickly changed from a tolerant, compassionate, giving,
Community based society, to a selfish, uncaring, greedy, step on your neighbor society.
The Left no longer had an organised platform, this was her aim.

Her administration was based on fleecing the nation through privatisation, council house
Sales etc, to enable her to reward just enough people with tax cuts. This Country 'is now"
And will suffer her legacy for decades to come, for a start it convinced upcoming Tory
Politicians "and more importantly Tory Grandees" that the people at the bottom are so
Fragmented and weak you can treat them as you please.

What's changed is they got to greedy, the wealth grab has gone to far, we now live in a
Country where hard working families have to rely on working tax credits to pay their bills
And food banks to feed their kids. Basically people they once had convinced we're Part
of things, no longer feel the fruits of their labour, people are no longer convinced that
Large companies syphoning off all the profits, while leaving their employees on the
Breadline is "just the way it is.

Small to midsize companies 'that in many cases are struggling' to survive tend to pay fair
Wages and holiday and sickness packages, it's the large multinational corporations that
Do not, whilst amassing vast fortunes for billionaire and millionaire shareholders.
Banks were so deregulated they had free reign to do as they please, so they did and
Through their own greed almost bankrupt entire Countries.

People are waking up, people have had enough, it really does not have to be this way,
Hence the rise of the Left.
I'm sure a Left wing uprising in America isn't far away either, after all you can only push
People so far, the wealthiest country on earth with huge sections of its population living
In 3rd world conditions, something has to give.

Brylowes said:

It's the other way round, Thatcher came along in 1979 and immediately set about destroying
The trade unions, to accomplish this they would break the will of the working man.
Divide and Conquer, as a nation we quickly changed from a tolerant, compassionate, giving,
Community based society, to a selfish, uncaring, greedy, step on your neighbor society.
The Left no longer had an organised platform, this was her aim.

Her administration was based on fleecing the nation through privatisation, council house
Sales etc, to enable her to reward just enough people with tax cuts. This Country 'is now"
And will suffer her legacy for decades to come, for a start it convinced upcoming Tory
Politicians "and more importantly Tory Grandees" that the people at the bottom are so
Fragmented and weak you can treat them as you please.

What's changed is they got to greedy, the wealth grab has gone to far, we now live in a
Country where hard working families have to rely on working tax credits to pay their bills
And food banks to feed their kids. Basically people they once had convinced we're Part
of things, no longer feel the fruits of their labour, people are no longer convinced that
Large companies syphoning off all the profits, while leaving their employees on the
Breadline is "just the way it is.

Small to midsize companies 'that in many cases are struggling' to survive tend to pay fair
Wages and holiday and sickness packages, it's the large multinational corporations that
Do not, whilst amassing vast fortunes for billionaire and millionaire shareholders.
Banks were so deregulated they had free reign to do as they please, so they did and
Through their own greed almost bankrupt entire Countries.

People are waking up, people have had enough, it really does not have to be this way,
Hence the rise of the Left.
I'm sure a Left wing uprising in America isn't far away either, after all you can only push
People so far, the wealthiest country on earth with huge sections of its population living
In 3rd world conditions, something has to give.

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So you are saying society is going more left?

I think if you look at the election of Trump and Brexit. Macron and Wilders coming close too. Also, in Sweden the SD (Swedish Democrats) are at least the second favourite party now and they were absolutely nowhere before. This all proves otherwise.

Before people start shouting that it's the media's fault, Sweden for example have very little national media. Certainly nothing right wing whatsoever. It isn't a conspiracy, people are sick of some of the lunatic policies that have been implemented by leftists.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

So you are saying society is going more left?

I think if you look at the election of Trump and Brexit. Macron and Wilders coming close too. Also, in Sweden the SD (Swedish Democrats) are at least the second favourite party now and they were absolutely nowhere before. This all proves otherwise.

Before people start shouting that it's the media's fault, Sweden for example have very little national media. Certainly nothing right wing whatsoever. It isn't a conspiracy, people are sick of some of the lunatic policies that have been implemented by leftists.

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His whole distortion of history and facts is beyond belief to be honest.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

So you are saying society is going more left?

I think if you look at the election of Trump and Brexit. Macron and Wilders coming close too. Also, in Sweden the SD (Swedish Democrats) are at least the second favourite party now and they were absolutely nowhere before. This all proves otherwise.

Before people start shouting that it's the media's fault, Sweden for example have very little national media. Certainly nothing right wing whatsoever. It isn't a conspiracy, people are sick of some of the lunatic policies that have been implemented by leftists.

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Thing is, I don't think you can draw political lines with such a heavy pencil anymore,
Brexit is an odd one, some left wing people were remain and some leave, and the
Same on the right, I don't think political persuasion came into it that much.

Trump, although über capitalist and republican, found away of engaging the lower
Middle class and even the people at the bottom, whilst loosing a sizeable proportion
Of the grassroots Republican vote.

In Europe I think a lean to the right is down to mass migration, or more accurately
The fear of, they live within relatively stable borders surrounded by instability.

Politics is changing, many blurred lines.

Grendel said:

His whole distortion of history and facts is beyond belief to be honest.

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As is your elitist, poor hating, greed is good attitude to life.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

So you are saying society is going more left?

I think if you look at the election of Trump and Brexit. Macron and Wilders coming close too. Also, in Sweden the SD (Swedish Democrats) are at least the second favourite party now and they were absolutely nowhere before. This all proves otherwise.

Before people start shouting that it's the media's fault, Sweden for example have very little national media. Certainly nothing right wing whatsoever. It isn't a conspiracy, people are sick of some of the lunatic policies that have been implemented by leftists.

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Which why they voted against Le Pen, against May, against AFD,and will undoubetly try and stop Trump in his tracks. Oh... and bye bye UKIP....

martcov said:

Which why they voted against Le Pen, against May, against AFD,and will undoubetly try and stop Trump in his tracks. Oh... and bye bye UKIP....

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Totally wrong.

Le Pen got closer than she should have done and got a lot of leftists quaking, as did Wilders. May still won (not that she is that right wing anyway). AFD is not done yet. Trump still won, and just because a bunch of cry babies are smashing up coffee shops doesn't mean anything. He still got into power, unbelievably.

UKIP did their job and that was it really.

Put the The Independent down.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Totally wrong.

Le Pen got closer than she should have done and got a lot of leftists quaking, as did Wilders. May still won (not that she is that right wing anyway). AFD is not done yet. Trump still won, and just because a bunch of cry babies are smashing up coffee shops doesn't mean anything. He still got into power, unbelievably.

UKIP did their job and that was it really.

Put the The Independent down.

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Why would only "leftists" be worried about le pen getting into power. Surely that would be a concern for any right minded person.

martcov said:

Which why they voted against Le Pen, against May, against AFD,and will undoubetly try and stop Trump in his tracks. Oh... and bye bye UKIP....

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Don't agree with this at all. Le pen got into the last two of a french election and got a third of the vote. This was unthinkable before. 5 years of more EU might sway the french people more in 5 years time. Wilders shouldn't be even in a conversation in Dutch potlitcs but became a prominent figure. Why?

Trump won in Usa fair and square and if you ignore the press his voters actually like trump and what he is doing. The democrats need to name something and they seem blaming trump and Russia should do it.

As for Ukip, you say bye bye but they have single handedly got us an eu referendum and achieved a leave result. Of course they were going to have a come down. If they don't get the brexit we voted for Ukip will be bigger than it ever was before so it's best days may even lie ahead.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Totally wrong.

Le Pen got closer than she should have done and got a lot of leftists quaking, as did Wilders.

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The primary reason Le Pen got as close as she did to the presidency is that the left essentially split their vote between Melenchon and Hamon. If they had united for a common cause she would have never made it to the second round.

Ian1779 said:

The primary reason Le Pen got as close as she did to the presidency is that the left essentially split their vote between Melenchon and Hamon. If they had united for a common cause she would have never made it to the second round.

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That's a poor excuse really I think. Le Pen still got through to the last round, in a perfect world she wouldn't be anywhere near it.

Kingokings204 said:

Don't agree with this at all. Le pen got into the last two of a french election and got a third of the vote. This was unthinkable before. 5 years of more EU might sway the french people more in 5 years time. Wilders shouldn't be even in a conversation in Dutch potlitcs but became a prominent figure. Why?

Trump won in Usa fair and square and if you ignore the press his voters actually like trump and what he is doing. The democrats need to name something and they seem blaming trump and Russia should do it.

As for Ukip, you say bye bye but they have single handedly got us an eu referendum and achieved a leave result. Of course they were going to have a come down. If they don't get the brexit we voted for Ukip will be bigger than it ever was before so it's best days may even lie ahead.

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i was in the Sates in March and spoke to a few people who voted Trump and couldn't stand him, they did think he was still the better choice of the two though.
Be surprised if he sees out his full term and don't think he'll be bothered, I don't think he realised it was a proper job.