London fire (1 Viewer)

Brylowes

Well-Known Member
Because in the 7 years of austerity implemented by your glorious Torys, we've seenHome
ownership at a new low, lack of social housing meaning people have to rentfrom Often
unscrupulous landlords.
A large number of the Tory MPs that voted against this particular bill, happen to be just such
landlords, 72 in fact including Nick Hurd Theresa Mays new Fire & Police Minister.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Because in the 7 years of austerity implemented by your glorious Torys, we've seenHome
ownership at a new low, lack of social housing meaning people have to rentfrom Often
unscrupulous landlords.
A large number of the Tory MPs that voted against this particular bill, happen to be just such
landlords, 72 in fact including Nick Hurd Theresa Mays new Fire & Police Minister.

So sprinkler systems aren't needed then?
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
The majority of the 're-furb' was for aesthetic purposes. One of the things the fire service said is they couldn't get water above a certain level.... so why the fuck weren't there sprinklers?
Because like most things in the modern world...its all about perception. 'We are refurbishing' is likely a cheaper option than 'we are upgrading safety systems'.

Just like airport security checks make the majority if us 'feel' or perceive we are safer to fly.

Fire safety inspector I heard this morning was saying he fully expects at this stage that everything was in order & complied with the regulations.
What we have had is a rude awakening that regulations are generally made with a balance in mind between what is the ideal at the time they're set - and how affordable the ideal actually is.

Bit like my ideal all-round car to suit my needs would most definitely be well beyond my budget.

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Just seen on TV apparently it would cost 44 million to fit every block in the country With
sprinkler systems, have to say that sounds very low, thought it would be much more.
But whatever the cost, it has to be done, to avoid the cost to human life.
But the powers that be try to strike a balance. A bit like the H&S stuff we all rant about...'can't play conkers unless you wear safety googles' type stuff. We rant because people have played conkers for a very long time with a miniscule percentage of blindness resulting through a flying piece of conker. Blocks of flats on a par with Grenfell Tower have been lived in by many people in many countries for many years without any problem.
This refurbishment may have had an energy efficient theme (hence the cladding & insulation) so maybe priorities & complacency played a part...but fire safety geezer on the radio said this has confounded all what we though we knew & expected would happen in the event of such a fire.

That to me indicates an 'Oh shit! Back to the drawing board' kind of thought process, which is no consolation to those affected

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Probably because it's a bit like going to bed on a night after one too many glasses of Port, & forgetting to lock the back door. As a one off incident you're unlikely to have an outcome beyond a sore head due to the Port & a red face due the not locking the door. If you leave the door unlocked EVERY night, eventually you'll wake up & find your Port has been pinched!

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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Blocks of flats on a par with Grenfell Tower have been lived in by many people in many countries for many years without any problem.
What about the Lakanal House fire in 2009. There was a coroners enquiry which would the building didn't provide the required fire resistance and insufficient fire risk assessments had been made. This was followed by a cross party committee being setup who delivered their recommendations in 2013.

The recommendations were ignored. For example sprinkler systems were recommended but the then housing minister, Brandon Lewis, said:

“We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”
“The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building – something we want to encourage – so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has.”

When he was replaced by Gavin Barwell, now May's chief of staff, calls were again made for regulation and ignored.

Residents of Grenfell and other similar blocks have been asking for fire safety improvements for years and highlighting the issues. I have a friend who lives in a similar block close by and he has been given the brush off time after time. The local council even threatened legal action against residents who published their concerns online!

Of course at this stage nobody knows if any of the recommendations would have saved lives but it certainly doesn't look good when such a disaster has been predicted for years and concerns ignored. Or when you have footage of Boris Johnson, during his time as Mayor of London, telling Andrew Dismore, who raised fire safety concerns in the London Assembly, to get stuffed. Or when a bill to improve tenants conditions and rights is voted down by the Government, many of whom are landlords.
 

dutchman

Well-Known Member
We don't have an endless pot of money and refitting a block of flats with sprinklers is a huge and expensive task, would require things like false ceilings to be installed.

But Whitefriars DID have the money to tart up the OUTSIDE of their tower blocks with blue and white tiles, spotlights, uPVC window frames, etc. The total cost of purely cosmetic improvements (inside and out) was between £3m and £6m per block.

High life to reach new level in Sky Blue City – WM Housing
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
Listen to the accounts of those that live there and their repeated protestations about safety prior to the incident.
Ah you're swayed by that...I sympathise with their protestations. They haven't been proven as founded or unfounded yet though have they? Knee-jerk reactions & speculationsfrom the like of us isn't going to help the dead, injured or directly affected in any way though. Maybe it makes you feel better?

I will keep an open mind & wait until the expert investigators put their findings & conclusions forward myself

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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
I will keep an open mind & wait until the expert investigators put their findings & conclusions forward myself
As they did after the Lakanal House fire only for all their recommendations to be ignored. Will this time be any different or after 3 or 4 years of an enquiry costing millions will the recommendations be ignored again?
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Ah you're swayed by that...I sympathise with their protestations. They haven't been proven as founded or unfounded yet though have they? Knee-jerk reactions & speculationsfrom the like of us isn't going to help the dead, injured or directly affected in any way though. Maybe it makes you feel better?

I will keep an open mind & wait until the expert investigators put their findings & conclusions forward myself

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I think I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the views of the people that had to live in that environment day in day out.
 

Brylowes

Well-Known Member
The refurbishment of blocks such as this, are usually carried out for aesthetic reasons, More to improve
the view for those looking at it, rather than improve the living conditions for those looking out of it.
 

Marty

Well-Known Member
But Whitefriars DID have the money to tart up the OUTSIDE of their tower blocks with blue and white tiles, spotlights, uPVC window frames, etc. The total cost of purely cosmetic improvements (inside and out) was between £3m and £6m per block.

High life to reach new level in Sky Blue City – WM Housing

They aren't totally cosmetic. Upvc Windows u value (heat loss) are far superior to the alternatives. I don't know if the cladding is insulation stuff. They are irrelevant minor points anyway.

Their just isn't the space in most cases to have these sort of systems. Plus all the residents would need to be rehoused while the works are carried out as i'm guessing most of the high-rise flats contain asbestos. A compromise may be to replace all doors with fire doors and a ventilation system in stairwells, so people can at least get out.

Like I said in my original post. In most cases it's just quicker, easier and cheaper to rebuild.
 

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
The refurbishment of blocks such as this, are usually carried out for aesthetic reasons, More to improve
the view for those looking at it, rather than improve the living conditions for those looking out of it.

You're obviously employed in a senior position within the building industry to be able to make such a confident assertion.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
I don't know if the cladding is insulation stuff. They are irrelevant minor points anyway.
From what was being said by 'experts' on the TV the cladding is aesthetic. However when it is put on there is a gap between the cladding and the original exterior which can be filled with insulation however, at least in this instance, it seems that was not fire retardant. That type of insulation is more expensive.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Just caught the back end of an article on midlands today about it with local councils rushing to assure tennants in high-rise accommodation and they were speaking to one councillor (didn't catch which council) and he was assuring their tennants that any properties that had been clad by them had been done so in completely different materials that are fire resistant and he said he was flabbergasted that the material used on the tower in London is allowed to be used on residential buildings.

Sounds like the issues start with the building regulations themselves.
 

Marty

Well-Known Member
Building regs are largely considered a best practice guide, with some stuff like ceiling height, stairs height/layout set in stone.
 

SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
As they did after the Lakanal House fire only for all their recommendations to be ignored. Will this time be any different or after 3 or 4 years of an enquiry costing millions will the recommendations be ignored again?
Remains to be seen I guess, sadly

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
I think I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the views of the people that had to live in that environment day in day out.
I've dissmissive none of their views. They expressed concerns.
They were ignored.

All I am saying is we have to wait to see where the buck stops. Some twit might blame the alleged exploding fridge manufacturers for faulty design or workmanship (but I doubt it) before deciding how to progress.

They ought to throw all resources to find out all they can & then piece all the learning points together. For this type of thing though maybe a formal independent body to monitor implementation is needed. Restricting 'refurbishments' to be only a part of safety improvements. Had that been done there may well have been good sprinklers installed rather than cladding to look nicer

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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
The buck won't stop anywhere. An official inquiry will conclude after many years that it was all due to an 'unfortunate series of coincidences which no one could possibly have foreseen' just like every other disaster inquiry we've had over the years.
That's it then...might as well save a shed load of time & money & carry on as usual?!

It is owed to those who lost their lives, we're injured, their homes & all their families & friends to go through it.

I do agree though that our processes to apportion responsibility for anything are sadly lacking, because the depths people have to go to to find who made a decision & then only find they took bits of advice from many sources mean that ultimately nobody actually IS officially responsible despite many getting paid lots more tan most to actually hold the position of responsibility in the first place!

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Rich

Moderator
insulation however, at least in this instance, it seems that was not fire retardant. That type of insulation is more expensive.

That's wrong. The insulation used is fire retardant, so it shows how hot it must've been. It was specifically designed for this use.
Celotex RS5000 PIR insulation solution

http://www.densol.biz/downloads/catlogues/BS 476 Part 6.pdf

http://www.densol.biz/downloads/catlogues/BS 476 Part 7.pdf

Yet again it's a load of Journos not knowing what they're talking about, spreading rumours.

Yesterday I read that the guy who's fridge it was, was a White Briton who packed a bag before knocking on his pregnant muslim neighbours door.

Turns out that White Briton is a Black Ethiopian so not much difference.
 

Nick

Administrator
Have seen the bloke who's fridge it was named and shamed, the bloke who's company did the work named and shamed. Anybody who can be named and shamed is being when nobody knows if they were at fault.
 

Rich

Moderator
Besides that lad on TV who said it was started deliberately so they can get the poor people out of Kensington, I've not seen any locals or survivors laying blame with people. Everyone wants to know what happened and why.

This for instance is unfair. The luxurious lifestyle of the cladding firm couple | Daily Mail Online

They've fitted a system, which meets all regulations at the moment and more than likely as specified and signed off by the owners of the building (the local council).

Just a massive witch hunt at the moment. I'm sure anyone involved is distraught at the moment without needing to be targeted as they are.
 

Rich

Moderator
It seems they are now saying the Alloy cladding itself contained the flammable plastic and it wasn't the insulation. That would make more sense, I suppose with the insulation being fire retardant the detail is passed off as the fire can't get through the materials and would be contained externally.

The big oversight is obviously openings, such as windows where there wouldn't be such a firestop.
 

Rich

Moderator
Here's a real worrying snippet from the cladding manufacturer:

"Reynobond aluminium composite panels are perfectly adapted to inside as well as outside applications thanks to their excellent weather protection. The fields of applications for aluminium composite panels are Architecture, Corporate ID, Sign & Display, Industry and Transport."

Would I bollocks want that stuff inside, with the way it goes up.
 

Rich

Moderator
This image shows that the Insulation has actually stood up quite well having just charred and not ignited.

nintchdbpict000331990140.jpg
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Here's a real worrying snippet from the cladding manufacturer:
They've also said its not allowed in other countries, including the US, "because of the fire and smoke spread". Seems the also make a fire resistant version but that's £2 per square metre more expensive.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
King’s College hospital is to lodge a complaint with the press watchdog over a journalist who allegedly impersonated a friend of a victim of the Grenfell Tower fire in order to get an interview with him.

The hospital is to file a complaint with the Independent Press Standards Organisation (Ipso) about the behaviour of the Sun reporter. It has also written to News UK, the publisher of the Sun, Times and Sunday Times, about the incident.

“Following an incident at King’s College hospital, we have formally written to the Sun and will be informing the Independent Press Standards Organisation,” said a spokeswoman for King’s College hospita NHS foundation trust. “We are unable to comment on the specifics until our complaint has been investigated.”

It is understood that the Sun was trying to get an interview with Mario Gomes, a resident on the 21st floor who has been hailed as a hero after racing back into the building to find his 12-year-old daughter.

Sources say a Sun journalist has been accused of attempting to impersonate a friend of Gomes to hospital staff in order to interview him.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
They've also said its not allowed in other countries, including the US, "because of the fire and smoke spread". Seems the also make a fire resistant version but that's £2 per square metre more expensive.

I work with someone whose GF is from Slovakia.
Lots of people there live in tower blocks.
He said even though it's a poor country this would never have happened over there because they are shit hot on H&S regarding this type of accommodation.
Appalling that we can't say the same after this incident.
 

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