Holding Wasps to Account (1 Viewer)

[torchomatic]

So Wasps made an offer but CCFC had to be made an offer ?

CCFC were never going to get the stadium no matter what they did. The dice was always loaded against them. As I said, you would think it would anger CCFC fans, but apparently not.

 

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[Captain Dart]

I dislike sisu with a passion, but my thinking at the time was that ccfc with at least a half share in the stadium would have been a much more saleable asset.
It may well be that sisu could possibly have gone by now.
As we all know now , wasps wanted 100% and that's what they got, even though they basically re-mortgaged to finance it.
I might be wrong but was that not the main reason ccc didn't want sisu to own any part of it ?

Weren’t SISU asked time and time again for a business plan which they never produced, the council always needed to shift Arena liabilities to someone else, SISU were not going to take those debts on. I think it was clear all SISU wanted to do was let someone else take a hit on the debt, acquire the asset, flip it at a profit and bugger off.

On the other hand Wasps wanted to move in, embed and invest and they had what appeared to be a credible plan. Also as Wasps have paid off all Council debts should they fail then there is no liability on the tax payers, the bond holders get stuffed & if they do I for one shall not lose any sleep.

 

[italiahorse]

CCFC were never going to get the stadium no matter what they did. The dice was always loaded against them. As I said, you would think it would anger CCFC fans, but apparently not.

CCFC were never going to get the stadium. Sisu would have got it. Big difference.

 

[oldskyblue58]

But Wasps are refusing to talk to the club, aren't they? They say because of legals but no legals involve Wasps, so why are they delaying negotiations?

its called brinksmanship designed to put as much pressure on the other side as possible by leaving it to the last minute. All sides have used this tactic regularly including SISU

From the Wasps perspective there is no great need to get it done now, when it runs out in 19 months time. CCFC have no immediate alternative. Wasps would say they are honouring the contract in place that was basically agreed before they bought ACL. Their argument would be they are providing exactly what has been agreed and have taken no action to break those agreements and damage CCFC. You (the global "you" that is) don't have to agree with that of course. There may be legal stuff in the background but I doubt it is the real reason, it is just them playing a longer game with a convenient excuse to hide behind.

From the CCFC point of view they need something sorted a bit sooner than that because of signing off two years of accounts as going concerns before the lease is up. If there is nothing in place then can the future of CCFC be assured 12 months from date of signing? So the pressure is a little more on CCFC/Otium/SISU to get something somewhere sorted

There is of course the simple recourse to the status quo that exists now, neither side will really see that as the best option I would guess

 

[chiefdave]

we know they are grateful for the new pitch

Bet they aren't now, pitch is not in a good state at all.

 

[AJB1983]

Yes, I don't think that's in dispute. It just shows the lack of goodwill on the part of Wasps towards CCFC and its supporters.

Never mind though, I am sure CCFC fans can understand the hard-nosed way Wasps are approaching this!

Who says they haven't been going over and above before now?

Like when ACL still allowed them to play there despite not paying rent?

 

[torchomatic]

CCFC were never going to get the stadium. Sisu would have got it. Big difference.

True. Wasps don't own the Ricoh, a Maltese hedge fund does, but I don't see you complaining about that. As I have said many times CCFC will never own their own stadium again no matter who owns us. I have also pointed to other stadiums, Man Utd no longer own Old Trafford for example, so really it's a weak argument. As long as the club get the full 365 revenue then I don't care who does.

 

[chiefdave]

its called brinksmanship designed to put as much pressure on the other side as possible by leaving it to the last minute. All sides have used this tactic regularly including SISU

But that's the problem. SISU use those tactics and people go mad branding them a disgrace. Wasps do the same and its hailed as good business.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Bet they aren't now, pitch is not in a good state at all.

In fairness we don't know what the reason for that is.

I don't think Wasps would let the maintenance schedule slip to undermine CCFC, is there another reason (in the same way that they are cutting costs in relation to food and drink)?

 

[torchomatic]

its called brinksmanship designed to put as much pressure on the other side as possible by leaving it to the last minute. All sides have used this tactic regularly including SISU

And only one side gets blamed for it.

 

[hutch1972]

CCFC were never going to get the stadium no matter what they did. The dice was always loaded against them. As I said, you would think it would anger CCFC fans, but apparently not.

Don't think that's true Torch, the vast majority were and still are angry about the sale.
The biggest problem we had was the people who could have made a difference and who were closest to the main players just stood by and let AL and her minnions destroy any real hope we had.
Maybe its just our councillors have the spine of a jellyfish and we're more worried about upsetting our great former leader.
If you could talk off the record to some I'm sure a fair few would have had huge reservations about it , but like I say, self preservation kicked in.

 

[Grendel]

No. I left them out as along with one or two other individuals they actually knew what they were doing, purchased players that were capable of getting us promoted and actually ran the business quite well. Gates were relatively high, corporate revenue was too. It all started to fall apart when they realised what Onye was doing, did their best to change it but realised they couldn't so they all left one after the other. He was the problem, not them.

Maybe I could've said the Ranson miss-lead Elliott and that lead to Elliott misleading the fans but I personally think Ray was miss-lead in the first place by Onye. Ray and Joe both encouraged fans to sign over their shares. I did. I got duped too just they they both did. Does that mean like the rest of the fans that did do so, I am at fault too? They both got taken on a ride by him, even Joy did for the first couple of years. He was and probably still is a complete lunatic with both his actions in the Coventry City board room and elsewhere. Remember who it was that suggested that Sky Blue Sam was too fat and who the two individuals were that sat their in disbelief? It was like that for months, every meeting!

This statement is why the Trust should be let near the club.

 

[Captain Dart]

From the CCFC point of view they need something sorted a bit sooner than that because of signing off two years of accounts as going concerns before the lease is up. I

Good point, that never crossed my mind. It will be interesting if the situation is addressed in the next set of accounts due out in a couple of months.

 

[torchomatic]

This statement is why the Trust should be let near the club.

Yes, worrying that JE is held in such high regard and gets away pretty much scot free.

 

[Nick]

Yes, worrying that JE is held in such high regard and gets away pretty much scot free.

Simple.

 

[italiahorse]

Bet they aren't now, pitch is not in a good state at all.

I despair !!

 

[trevelfarandwide]

Why?

If I were Wasps I'd be bloody delighted if the football club bogged off to Bogota (or Balsall Common).

Gosford Green still looks spacious:

gosford green coventry - Google Search

Haven't seen it for years, mind. Still, a few deck chairs, a few torches, bish bash bosh, Timmy and Joy have a 'new stadium'.

 

[hutch1972]

Weren’t SISU asked time and time again for a business plan which they never produced, the council always needed to shift Arena liabilities to someone else, SISU were not going to take those debts on. I think it was clear all SISU wanted to do was let someone else take a hit on the debt, acquire the asset, flip it at a profit and bugger off.

On the other hand Wasps wanted to move in, embed and invest and they had what appeared to be a credible plan. Also as Wasps have paid off all Council debts should they fail then there is no liability on the tax payers, the bond holders get stuffed & if they do I for one shall not lose any sleep.

But they re-paid the debt by using borrowed money from the bond scheme.
Looking at it now it is no different to the Glazers at Manchester United, they took over by borrowing the money.
I also noted the wasps owner made sure he had his money back 1st off.
Did the viable business plan that Wasps put forward mention the fact they would borrow 30 odd million within weeks.

 

[Nick]

But they re-paid the debt by using borrowed money from the bond scheme.
Looking at it now it is no different to the Glazers at Manchester United, they took over by borrowing the money.
I also noted the wasps owner made sure he had his money back 1st off.
Did the viable business plan that Wasps put forward mention the fact they would borrow 30 odd million within weeks.

Imagine if joy did it and paid herself back a few mill...

 

[Grendel]

But they re-paid the debt by using borrowed money from the bond scheme.
Looking at it now it is no different to the Glazers at Manchester United, they took over by borrowing the money.
I also noted the wasps owner made sure he had his money back 1st off.
Did the viable business plan that Wasps put forward mention the fact they would borrow 30 odd million within weeks.

He won't answer for a while. He needs to get hold of duggins to tell him how to respond.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just some comment on the F&B's

I think CA/TF referred to a particular year when stating they got 15% of the turnover - actually the calculation is I believe they get a 50:50 split of the net profit which equates for that year to 15% of turnover. CCFC are of course not directly responsible for any costs or risk.

Since then the crowds have reduced so you might expect the F&B turnover at CCFC matches to reduce also. There are fixed costs and certain costs that are semi fixed (eg the number of staff required for health and safety reasons in a concourse outlet). That could well mean that after deducting direct costs of stock sold, the labour element and utilities expenses the current share for CCFC of the net profit is much lower in total and %age terms

IEC Experience limited is the company responsible for the staffing, services & goods in the stadium relating to conferences & events. That company is owned 77% by ACL and 23% by Compass. IEC has no staff (per the 2015 accounts) - the staff (direct & back office) being provided by Compass, I assume on a recharge of hours basis. It doesn't look to me like Compass take a set 60% as claimed above.

Do ACL or IEC account for the CCFC F&B - it isn't clear. ACL do not have the staff to actually do it so i would assume that Compass do on the basis of time recharged to IEC/ACL not a set percentage. That recharge is then used to calculate the CCFC F&B figures and ultimately the share to CCFC

CCFC's contract is with ACL or IEC not Compass. Compass has a contract with ACL & IEC.

As for the £195m claim that equates to £13m pa over 15 years which is the total turnover of IEC per year. There are of course costs paid against that. Compass bought their shares for 4m - not ware of any deal to pay up front for the right to service the IEC total turnover for the next 15 years

IEC does not form part of the guarantee under pinning the bond issue

 

[italiahorse]

Imagine if joy did it and paid herself back a few mill...

Who would give a fukc if we were top of the PL ?

 

[torchomatic]

Who would give a fukc if we were top of the PL ?

You're not so easily bribed, are you? You want SISU gone at all costs, surely?

 

[Captain Dart]

But they re-paid the debt by using borrowed money from the bond scheme.
Looking at it now it is no different to the Glazers at Manchester United, they took over by borrowing the money.
I also noted the wasps owner made sure he had his money back 1st off.
Did the viable business plan that Wasps put forward mention the fact they would borrow 30 odd million within weeks.[/QUOTE]

I should think so, wasn't knowledge of the Wasps bond prospectus in the public domain for some time before ACL was sold to them?
I'm pretty sure the bonds were mentioned on this site well before it was formally issued. Can anyone remember when?

 

[italiahorse]

You're not so easily bribed, are you? You want SISU gone at all costs, surely?

Life's funny like that.
Last week I was not renewing but after the last game I'm optimistic and renewal is back on.
Similarly if Sisu do what we all want and start to move the club in the right direction all may be forgiven.
However my views on TF are unlikely to change.

 

[hutch1972]

I should think so, wasn't knowledge of the Wasps bond prospectus in the public domain for some time before ACL was sold to them?
I'm pretty sure the bonds were mentioned on this site well before it was formally issued. Can anyone remember when?

They may well have been captain , would that not make it worse considering members of ccc were convinced the football club would just lump debt onto it.

 

[Nick]

They may well have been captain , would that not make it worse considering members of ccc were convinced the football club would just lump debt onto it.

The same as that members of CCC are now shouting to the FL to make sure Coventry can't move away from the Ricoh?

 

[oldskyblue58]

But that's the problem. SISU use those tactics and people go mad branding them a disgrace. Wasps do the same and its hailed as good business.

no the problem is that there is no working relationship at senior level, no trust on any side. Games of brinksmanship are tactics, used by many organisations - there's nothing wrong in that - I doubt SISU or Wasps care how it is perceived from the outside. Sometimes it works other times it doesn't, depends how strong your hand is

 

[italiahorse]

Delaying any deal may play into Wasps hands.
In 18 months time they could be more established, more financially stable and CCFC may be insignificant in their future plans.
Or ?

 

[Warwickhunt]

Who would give a fukc if we were top of the PL ?

totally agree Italia!

 

[sky blue john]

CCFC were never going to get the stadium no matter what they did. The dice was always loaded against them. As I said, you would think it would anger CCFC fans, but apparently not.

It does anger me !
I do think if Sisu had tried early in their tenure they would now own the stadium.
please tell me at what point was the dice loaded against them ?
Was it when Joy said the stadium was worthless ?
Was it when they stopped paying the rent?
Was it when they tried to negotiate Acl's loan behind their back?
Was it when they moved the club to sixfields ?

 

[Nick]

It does anger me !
I do think if Sisu had tried early in their tenure they would now own the stadium.
please tell me at what point was the dice loaded against them ?
Was it when Joy said the stadium was worthless ?
Was it when they stopped paying the rent?
Was it when they tried to negotiate Acl's loan behind their back?
Was it when they moved the club to sixfields ?

The council were speaking to Wasps in 2012 and PWKH was being a ranty bitch in 2011.

Just need to match it up to the timeline.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Bet they aren't now, pitch is not in a good state at all.

Must have been the protesters fucking wankers.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Who would give a fukc if we were top of the PL ?

Those who set up FC United seemed to...

 

[skybluebeduff]

Simple.

That was a great day, even got on the tele with my son.