Income streams from the Ricoh (2 Viewers)

[Brylowes]

I think its a fairly solid assumption, and one that OSB has also made.

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It is, but then the £100.000 p/a rent we returned on has a hint of sweetness about it, what would
Be the going rate to rent such a stadium with some access to revenues.
We maybe should have taken advantage of the low rent we were paying by doing our upmost to
Attract more customers and thereby maximise profits.

 

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[NortonSkyBlue]

It is, but then the £100.000 p/a rent we returned on has a hint of sweetness about it, what would
Be the going rate to rent such a stadium with some access to revenues.
We maybe should have taken advantage of the low rent we were paying by doing our upmost to
Attract more customers and thereby maximise profits.

Its safe to say that even now with a different approach(as Nick has often pointed out) so much more could be achieved.
What has happened with sisu can't be undone for some but by reaching out and softening their stance and improving the communication with the fans and stakeholders a different outcome is possible.
Funnily enough I thought there was no way back for them after Northampton but they had a golden opportunity in the autumn of 2015 to nuture some goodwill when we were in a good position in the league table but that passed them by.
If I was in a position of power you wouldn't have to spend shitloads on sales staff as I would have been doing everything that Wasps have been doing in terms of sales and marketing, giving away free tickets, under tens free etc...... They have marched in to our city and basically taken it and we have tickled their tummies.
Invite season ticket holders to small intimate gatherings to thank them and listen to their concerns and address them. Invite former season ticket holders and disaffected fans to apologize-yes apologize-for the way things have turned out sweeten the deal to get them back( even a fiver for an empty seat is a better than nothing).
If you had told me 10 years ago that Wasps would be the owners of OUR stadium, would be the preferred choice for our city, I would have not believed it possible so anything can happen. Circumstances change.

 

[chiefdave]

At the moment 'it would seem" we can't sell enough to make it worthwhile switching on the oven.

Who might possibly stand to benefit if the CCFC corporate offering is seen to be deteriorating?

 

[chiefdave]

An important thing to consider when discussing rents and matchday costs is that its generally not comparing like with like.

For example to say we paid £1.2m and now only pay £100K doesn't take in to account things like the old deal allowing our office, shop and ticket outlet to be at the Ricoh.

Same with matchday costs. Under the old deal we got something like 700 parking spaces to either use or resell. Now we have to buy parking spaces the club requires. My understanding is that when we returned matchday costs were running at around £400K and have significantly increased yet. Its not the case that if we owned the Ricoh we would be paying the same as services are being sold on to us at a profit by ACL but we have no choice other than to use those services.

 

[Brylowes]

Who might possibly stand to benefit if the CCFC corporate offering is seen to be deteriorating?

But people who go corporate and come on here have said how there's hardly anyone
Turning up nowadays, I think that's more likely the problem.

 

[oldskyblue58]

the club used to get 900 spaces as part of the lease & licence.

What I was told was the total cost of being at the Ricoh ran at around 300k

We do not actually know that ACL are selling at a profit not a straight recharge. Its just a reasonable assumption.

If we owned the stadium the incomes would be more but so to the running costs, because it would be 365 days and being L1 would not cover it. Every one merrily points finger at the Wasps losses it would currently be different for CCFC because?

I think that the relationship between the current CCFC and Wasps is beginning to fail and CCFC are not very high up the priorities list for Wasps, financially or otherwise

 

[Captain Dart]

the club used to get 900 spaces as part of the lease & licence.

What I was told was the total cost of being at the Ricoh ran at around 300k

We do not actually know that ACL are selling at a profit not a straight recharge. Its just a reasonable assumption.

If we owned the stadium the incomes would be more but so to the running costs, because it would be 365 days and being L1 would not cover it. Every one merrily points finger at the Wasps losses it would currently be different for CCFC because?

I think that the relationship between the current CCFC and Wasps is beginning to fail and CCFC are not very high up the priorities list for Wasps, financially or otherwise

If Wasps/ACL % turnover from CCFC is so small and shrinking then all Fisher is doing is making the club less important to everyone and anyone,
its almost like SISU have a death wish, they're so bloody incompetent its criminal.

 

[Brylowes]

If Wasps/ACL % turnover from CCFC is so small and shrinking then all Fisher is doing is making the club less important to everyone and anyone,
its almost like SISU have a death wish, they're so bloody incompetent its criminal.

Everything they do, every decision they make, makes it more and more difficult For me not too believe
that liquidation isn't their ultimate goal. For what reason I do not know, but it's been on my mind for the
last 4 or 5 years, it seems Unthinkable that any organisation could be behind such a catalogue of errors
without actually meaning it.

Some very intelligent posters will be along to ask "why would they liquidate" but as I've said I don't know,
But it would be a lot easier to liquidate a club without too much fuss if it has a very small and shrinking
apathetic fanbase. Not to mention no stadium to play in, nowhere to train and no plan in place for the
Academy. They can pull the plug, point to their investment and how they tried their best, they can then
Point the finger at NOPM and blame the fans.

I maybe wide of the mark here but:
If they were to sell what's left now for 'say £5 million the debt that's leftover 'say £35 million would still be
Real wouldn't it and have to be accounted for, so investors would be aware.
Where as if they were to liquidate, would the companies involved just be wound up and disappear taking
The debt with them.
If so, surely they would be better off winding us up.

 

[italiahorse]

When they were loosing say £5M a year they could look at it and say 'If we just go we will save ourselves a loss of £5M every year'.
But now we are breaking even there is no such pressure.
Trouble is that to break even on a falling customer base (fans) you need to cut costs and that means players.
As we see, the drop in players/quality means we just get lower and lower in the league and loose more and more customers.
From TF point of view he just reports back to Sisu that its all going to plan and costing them nothing.
The question to ask him is 'How does CCFC reach the top of the market so they will sell?'

 

[Brylowes]

When they were loosing say £5M a year they could look at it and say 'If we just go we will save ourselves a loss of £5M every year'.
But now we are breaking even there is no such pressure.
Trouble is that to break even on a falling customer base (fans) you need to cut costs and that means players.
As we see, the drop in players/quality means we just get lower and lower in the league and loose more and more customers.
From TF point of view he just reports back to Sisu that its all going to plan and costing them nothing.
The question to ask him is 'How does CCFC reach the top of the market so they will sell?'

But I just don't buy the idea that they're happy to sit on us for ever, break even or not, it makes
No sense at all and goes against the ideology of a hedge fund.

 

[clint van damme]

But I just don't buy the idea that they're happy to sit on us for ever, break even or not, it makes
No sense at all and goes against the ideology of a hedge fund.

but doesn't turning round to your investors and saying we've made a right mess of this. we're going to write off x amount of millions also go against the grain.
Especially when it's a long established football club which will generate untold bad publicity.
Even if they gave the club away with the caveat of say, a 5 million lump sum on reaching the premiership and a million a year for the next 3 years if we survive in there, wouldn't that be better and give them some chance of a return?

 

[Brylowes]

but doesn't turning round to your investors and saying we've made a right mess of this. we're going to write off x amount of millions also go against the grain.
Especially when it's a long established football club which will generate untold bad publicity.
Even if they gave the club away with the caveat of say, a 5 million lump sum on reaching the premiership and a million a year for the next 3 years if we survive in there, wouldn't that be better and give them some chance of a return?

That makes perfect sense Clint, the trouble I have with it however, there isn't anything
They do that makes sense to me.

 

[clint van damme]

That makes perfect sense Clint, the trouble I have with it however, there isn't anything
They do that makes sense to me.

I agree that trying to second guess them is pretty much impossible. I honestly think that other than breaking even, they don't have any sort of plan whatsoever.

 

[Bridport_SBA]

I have been thinking a lot about this. If you step back a bit from the details, it is clearly madness for the Club to think about playing anywhere else but The Ricoh. TF has talked about the need for us to own our own stadium but, as I understand it, he is suggesting we start somewhere small. Building our own small stadium is an ideal way to cement ourselves as a small club - even in the off chance that it might happen. No; there is a stadium in the city fit for a Premiership side and that's where we should be aiming. If that were the position, it would be win-win for Cov and Wasps. Our problem is having to pay to use the stadium, but Wasps will have an empty stadium and no money at all if we don't use it. Coming to an equitable split on the appropriate payment should not be beyond the wit of man. A sensible negotiator would try to agree something which would flex as Cov climbed the leagues. Once we get back to the Prem, there are riches to be had, and we should be prepared to share a fair part of those with the Stadium owners when we get there. In the meantime, it should be in Wasps' interests to help us get there, or at least to start moving up, and increasing the crowds...

...the problem I think, is that Sisu don't do things like that - building bridges, identifying synergies - their game is hard ball, court actions, barrels and people over them, and the trouble is this game hasn't worked at all for them: many court cases lost, the Council beating them at their own game by jumping in as lender, and tucking them up by selling to Wasps...

There should be no reason why a sensible deal cannot be done in relation to the Stadium and anyone who wants to take this club forward (and make some money, if that's what they want) is going to have to do that.

 

[Brylowes]

I agree that trying to second guess them is pretty much impossible. I honestly think that other than breaking even, they don't have any sort of plan whatsoever.

I'm really not so sure, they seem to try and push the fans away at every turn, almost as though
They don't really want them, time will tell I suppose.

 

[clint van damme]

I have been thinking a lot about this. If you step back a bit from the details, it is clearly madness for the Club to think about playing anywhere else but The Ricoh. TF has talked about the need for us to own our own stadium but, as I understand it, he is suggesting we start somewhere small. Building our own small stadium is an ideal way to cement ourselves as a small club - even in the off chance that it might happen. No; there is a stadium in the city fit for a Premiership side and that's where we should be aiming. If that were the position, it would be win-win for Cov and Wasps. Our problem is having to pay to use the stadium, but Wasps will have an empty stadium and no money at all if we don't use it. Coming to an equitable split on the appropriate payment should not be beyond the wit of man. A sensible negotiator would try to agree something which would flex as Cov climbed the leagues. Once we get back to the Prem, there are riches to be had, and we should be prepared to share a fair part of those with the Stadium owners when we get there. In the meantime, it should be in Wasps' interests to help us get there, or at least to start moving up, and increasing the crowds...

...the problem I think, is that Sisu don't do things like that - building bridges, identifying synergies - their game is hard ball, court actions, barrels and people over them, and the trouble is this game hasn't worked at all for them: many court cases lost, the Council beating them at their own game by jumping in as lender, and tucking them up by selling to Wasps...

There should be no reason why a sensible deal cannot be done in relation to the Stadium and anyone who wants to take this club forward (and make some money, if that's what they want) is going to have to do that.

that's a good post, and as much as it pains me that wasps are here I think co-operation between them and CCFC, (no matter who the owners are), is the only way forward.
But a potential stumbling block on a flexible rental agreement based on league position maybe if wasps ask how sisu how they intend to propel the club into the Championship and then Premiership, because at the moment we're a million miles away from doing it.

 

[Bridport_SBA]

that's a good post, and as much as it pains me that wasps are here I think co-operation between them and CCFC, (no matter who the owners are), is the only way forward.
But a potential stumbling block on a flexible rental agreement based on league position maybe if wasps ask how sisu how they intend to propel the club into the Championship and then Premiership, because at the moment we're a million miles away from doing it.

I agree, but to be fair (not that I want to be fair to them!) they have appointed a manager who should keep us up, and then who knows. In the 50 odd years since Cov were promoted, other clubs seen to be able to manage it, and some of them on a shoestring. We live on the South Coast now and my boys both follow Saints (I didn't feel I could insist on them supporting Cov!) and it wasn't so many years ago they were in League 1. We watched them beat Inter Milan this year...

...the real reason for my post was to rubbish this idea that we somehow need to our own stadium. It's ridiculous, so many businesses rent the land they use. You have to pay rent, yes, but how much does it cost to build your own stadium?! A small one, that will only get used once a fortnight - brilliant idea, great use of the money. And if they really want other income streams, they can build themselves a concert venue somewhere else later - in Northampton, if they like...

Ever the optimist!

 

[chiefdave]

Would that not present a huge stumbling block in ever getting SISU out? On top of everything else you'd now be telling a prospective owner if they pumped in money and got us to the PL Wasps would be the beneficiaries.

 

[shmmeee]

If Wasps/ACL % turnover from CCFC is so small and shrinking then all Fisher is doing is making the club less important to everyone and anyone,
its almost like SISU have a death wish, they're so bloody incompetent its criminal.

This is what I mean about the rotting on the vine conspiracy theory becoming the most likely.

It's mental, but it's also the only theory that explains everything that's going on. What better revenge than telling us we've got to be self sufficient and letting us just slowly drop down the leagues while refusing to sell?

Honestly, can anyone think of another explanation that covers Sisu's current strategy? I mean even if you wanted self sufficiency long term, you'd be willing to throw a bit of cash short term to avoid relegation and the like.

I dunno, maybe it's too mental, maybe I just don't want to think about what it means if it were true.

 

[stupot07]

Would that not present a huge stumbling block in ever getting SISU out? On top of everything else you'd now be telling a prospective owner if they pumped in money and got us to the PL Wasps would be the beneficiaries.

We're also nearer to league 2 than the PL. The likelihood of getting back to the PL are slim, look at the likes of forest, leeds, etc. Wasps need cash now, whilst they will no doubt want to build in sliding rent scales, I don't think they will be considering giving us favours in order to reap rewards in 10-15-20 years time or potentially never.

We are stuck at the Ricoh at least for the next 10 years, but other than the 'its thr only option" still yet to see a compelling argument for staying long term.


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[shmmeee]

Would that not present a huge stumbling block in ever getting SISU out? On top of everything else you'd now be telling a prospective owner if they pumped in money and got us to the PL Wasps would be the beneficiaries.

Deal is up soon isn't it? We ain't going to get to the Prem before then.

Which puts any new owner in the same position as Sisu 4 years ago, they can try and sweet talk a better deal, put up the cash for a new ground, or lump it (or move us to Northampton in a naive attempt to bully organisations several times their size).

 

[stupot07]

Deal is up soon isn't it? We ain't going to get to the Prem before then.

Which puts any new owner in the same position as Sisu 4 years ago, they can try and sweet talk a better deal, put up the cash for a new ground, or lump it (or move us to Northampton in a naive attempt to bully organisations several times their size).

Not quite the same position there are now new factors in place, but the option are similar.

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[shmmeee]

Not quite the same position there are now new factors in place, but the option are similar.

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Different people to negotiate with different needs sure.

Let's be honest here, there's no deal that will make sense to house a team with sub 10k attendances in a 32k seater stadium.

 

[Bridport_SBA]

Would that not present a huge stumbling block in ever getting SISU out? On top of everything else you'd now be telling a prospective owner if they pumped in money and got us to the PL Wasps would be the beneficiaries.

It depends on the deal. A prospective buyer would have great stadium to play in, none of the liabilities of owning and running a stadium, they'd just have to pay rent instead of paying the costs directly themselves. As long as the deal was a fair one, I don't see the issue. Wasps own the ground, they (and the bondholders) have paid for it - they're entitled to a fair return and Cov should expect to pay a fair price. It's all about the negotiation, but sensible business people enter into mutually beneficial deals around the ownership and use of land all time, and where both sides benefit.

 

[stupot07]

Different people to negotiate with different needs sure.

Let's be honest here, there's no deal that will make sense to house a team with sub 10k attendances in a 32k seater stadium.

Very true on both counts.

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[Bridport_SBA]

Different people to negotiate with different needs sure.

Let's be honest here, there's no deal that will make sense to house a team with sub 10k attendances in a 32k seater stadium.

Again, I don't see why - what's the alternative for Wasps - get nothing. What's the alternative for us - build a stadium for 10K people - great. It's doable. I think Sisu just don't know how to do these sorts of deals. They are used to telling people what to do, not cooperating with them.

 

[clint van damme]

Different people to negotiate with different needs sure.

Let's be honest here, there's no deal that will make sense to house a team with sub 10k attendances in a 32k seater stadium.

fill the stadium. Easy to say I know, but it's the one big income stream we have available yet currently it's not being exploited.
I'd love to be away from the Ricoh, away from wasps, but let's be honest, it's not going to happen any time soon.
We need to start making the best of what we've got if we're going to get out of this mess.

 

[shmmeee]

Again, I don't see why - what's the alternative for Wasps - get nothing. What's the alternative for us - build a stadium for 10K people - great. It's doable. I think Sisu just don't know how to do these sorts of deals. They are used to telling people what to do, not cooperating with them.

Get nothing and pay nothing though. If it costs more to open up and/or they lose their own money if their games are on Sundays (I have no idea if this is true, don't know the first thing about rugby). It may literally cost more to open than it's worth for us to play there. That seems to be the message coming from all sides the last few years.

 

[shmmeee]

fill the stadium. Easy to say I know, but it's the one big income stream we have available yet currently it's not being exploited.
I'd love to be away from the Ricoh, away from wasps, but let's be honest, it's not going to happen any time soon.
We need to start making the best of what we've got if we're going to get out of this mess.

There's a hole in my bucket.

"Fill the ground" is as much a solution as "win the lottery". i.e. not a serious option.

 

[stupot07]

Get nothing and pay nothing though. If it costs more to open up and/or they lose their own money if their games are on Sundays (I have no idea if this is true, don't know the first thing about rugby). It may literally cost more to open than it's worth for us to play there. That seems to be the message coming from all sides the last few years.

Yep, also if we're forced to move out and go to sixfields they could blame it on Sisu, and mop up some more fans or casuals attending more wasps games. That would probably bring in more money than the current £100k pa rent, plus they would get an even bigger share of corporate and potential sponsors. You've only got to see how sponsors dropped us like a stone on moving to sixfields, wasps will just hoover them up.

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[stupot07]

There's a hole in my bucket.

"Fill the ground" is as much a solution as "win the lottery". i.e. not a serious option.

Likewise full boycott.

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[Bridport_SBA]

Get nothing and pay nothing though. If it costs more to open up and/or they lose their own money if their games are on Sundays (I have no idea if this is true, don't know the first thing about rugby). It may literally cost more to open than it's worth for us to play there. That seems to be the message coming from all sides the last few years.

You may be right but, at present we don't have two sides who trust each other, so we can't know what sensible people could sort out. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat - and a dead horse!

 

[clint van damme]

There's a hole in my bucket.

"Fill the ground" is as much a solution as "win the lottery". i.e. not a serious option.

Can sisu negotiate a new F&B deal - no.
Have sisu got access to non matchday revenue - no.
Have sisu got a realistic plan to move the club to a new stadium - no.
Have sisu got 24,000 unsold seats every home game - yes.

So how do they sell them, admittedly with great difficulty, but it's a more realistic option than any of the above.
And when I say sell them, I don't expect all 24,000 to be sold but I'm talking about a concerted effort to increase crowds from their current level.

It would take a massive amount of bridge building and more than a few olive branches but surely it's better than alienating the support at every turn as they seem to be doing.

 

[Captain Dart]

There's a hole in my bucket.

"Fill the ground" is as much a solution as "win the lottery". i.e. not a serious option.

Don't say that about my early retirement strategy! :emoji_sob:

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

People keep saying the rent will probably go up substantially not so sure our one bargaining chip surely is they need us to get a good deal on the naming right of the stadium if only we could get rid of SUSI things would get 100 of % better .I do not think they are so bad as some make out if they were we would be sitting in yellow and black seats now. I think the perfect situation for them would be to have 2 successful sides playing in 1 stadium .As for SUSI the way their alienating the fans next season all they will afford is to play on the park pitches so they had better not upset the CCC anymore.