Sports England

Discussion in 'Ricoh Row / Politics / SISU Section' started by oldskyblue58, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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  2. bradwellskyblues

    bradwellskyblues Member

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    you have to ask the question when will the people of coventry wake up to the fact that very shortly they wont have a professional football club in the city blame who you like but that is fast becoming the reality
     
  3. stupot07

    stupot07 Well-Known Member

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    Wankers

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
     
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  4. Rodders1

    Rodders1 Active Member

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    Unbelievable
     
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  5. Evo1883

    Evo1883 Well-Known Member

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    If sisu purchased the Ricoh upon arrival in 07 , this wouldn't be happening .
    It's all sisus fault ....fact .
    Council , sports England are wankers , but sisu are a fucking disgrace
     
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  6. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    If people stood back and looked at the regulations that actually applied then not sure how you would expect a different outcome - and that is not me being happy with said outcome far from it. It should never have got to this

    The situation regarding the Academy was always operational, and Sport England would look at the overall sporting picture for the City of Coventry not focus primarily on the needs of Coventry City Academy or indeed any one group.

    Certainly hasn't strengthened CCFC hand for the proposed meetings week beginning 19/09. Also is there any point in Sport England being part of that? Crunch time for the Academy
     
  7. bradwellskyblues

    bradwellskyblues Member

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    i am no longer taking any stance other than caring for ccfc,evo 1883 post is pretty near the money in my view. But i have a feeling of dread regards ccfc unless all parties change their stance and i cant see it happening
     
  8. Gosford Green

    Gosford Green Active Member

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    I have that feeling the owners of CCFC are not that arsed about the academy as why did they not secure it on a long term deal before all this came about.
     
  9. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    But when I look at it from that point of view I find it difficult to see how this meets any criteria. Higgs Centre was built on municipal land that only got the go ahead in the first place on the basis of it being a facility for the public.

    There seems to me to be a huge net loss in facilities. Wasps themselves have said the vast majority of facilities will be specialist and not open to the public.
    And don't forget we only have an academy there, they will have first team and academy meaning the facilities availability for public use will be massively restricted.

    Hopefully the information that was requested by Sports England and the response supplied to satisfy them will be made available publicly. Think it could be an interesting read.
    Is there even any point having the meeting now? Between this and the swimming pool getting the thumbs up what is left at Higgs for us? All I can see if a single football pitch and a kicking barn we can hire for a few hours when Wasps don't need it.
     
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  10. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    The existing indoor pitch appears not used during weekdays.
    We had to get them to open it yesterday at 5 so we could play on it.
    People (and Sisu) are looking for problems not answers.
     
  11. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    I am still of a mind that there is a deal to be done that involves using the AHC to retain Cat 2 status. Also pretty sure neither CSF nor Wasps will do us any great favours on any deal on offer. Any arrangement will have to be over at least two sites - assuming such site availability is there then it will ultimately end up with CCFC having to decide it is viable or choosing to close the Cat 2 Academy. We have known for some time that split sites are acceptable to FL

    Net loss of facilities. If you look purely from the Academy perspective then yes it is obvious it has been at least part displaced. However the pitches bar the one are still there but will be used differently so no sporting facility has changed. There has to be public use because of the disposition of the site under the lease etc. So from an overall general sports provision what is lost? Which is how Sports England have looked at it

    Wasps have said that the specialist gyms etc will not be available but the kicking barn will be. This is apparently twice the size of the current in door pitch. The club requires 12 hours use per week it is being offered/suggested 15 hours is available per week. Does twice the size mean double the number of CCFC trainees could use it at any one time? The site it is being built on was never available to the public and was exclusive use for the CCFC Academy. So does that mean more hours available, better use of a restricted area. Are there other ways to timetable usage?

    Is there a huge loss in facilities in a general sporting sense for the City of Coventry - not sure I see it. For CCFC Academy there is potential for a loss certainly but is it a certainty or is it only a certainty at AHC

    What other sites are available. Well there is potential at Warwick Uni it would seem and you would expect those facilities to be up to the required standard. There are Cov Uni grass pitches close by that I know are reasonable standard (for example were used by Cov Ladies as was I believe). There is also the possibility of using Ryton more for matches, they did it before when they moved out.

    Still of a mind that there are solutions to retain Cat 2, that there are no problems that can not be overcome. Not how I would want it to be but I see no real option now than to take a flexible approach and to safeguard the future of the Academy and the talent stream in to the first team. The sticking points I see is the will to do it differently and the will to pay for it.

    Whats more important the Academy or being inflexible given this is happening and out of CCFC hands?
     
  12. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    The fact they opened it would indicate it is available for use wouldn't it, and that is the point. If CSF aren't running the facility properly is not really a consideration in calculating the available usage.
    There's 5 pitches currently, Wasps have stated previously that they will be taking all but 1 for their use. How is that not a net loss of facilities? Even Wasps own assessment states there will be a huge loss in terms of available hours and that's based on a vague mention of potential availability.
    The point here is the calculation provided by Wasps that results in an increase in available hours in order to meet Sport Englands requirements includes the existing indoor pitch which we all know is being removed. Again if you use Wasps own figures once you remove that facility there is again a net loss.
    Warwick and Ryton would not count as part of the cities sporting provision as they are not in the city.
     
  13. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Not sure I made it clear enough - the bit about Warwick Uni etc was about finding a solution to keeping the academy not about the Sports England assessment

    Sports England . As far as I know there is no appeals procedure so we are stuck with this and finding a solution that works irrespective of whether you think sports facilities are lost or not

    The physical facilities as in pitches (except 1 pitch) do not disappear but change sporting use. It goes from one professional sports club with an academy to another professional sports club with an academy.

    Again it comes back to Sports England taking the information provided and factoring the other sports provision in the city (including swimming pools) and assessing if the changes in general provision to the public & community results in a down grading of such provision. In their judgement, including what Wasps have said, the City of Coventry general sporting provision in total to the community is not diminished. Should they investigate further probably but they wont. Is there loss of facility specific to CCFC at AHC yes

    Reality is whether we like this or not we have to work with it - the alternative is no Cat 2 Academy and that's not something I would want or support
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  14. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Lets break it down. The application was assessed by Sport England against provision E5 which is basically that the benefit of the proposed development outweighs the detriment caused.

    So lets compare the two.

    Now: Netball courts
    Plans: Wasps car park

    Now: Outdoor pitches
    Plans: Wasps Pitch Usage Analysis shows that the plans would result in a loss of capacity of 12 matches per week

    Now: Indoor pitch. Wasps Pitch Usage Analysis shows current usage of 2,354 hours. CCC's Playing Pitch Strategy shows a shortage of this type of facility
    Plans: Wasps Pitch Usage Analysis shows the plans would result in a loss of usage of 200 hours

    I'm failing to see how that meets the E5 provision. That's before you even factor in that all mentions of availability after Wasps move in are vague at best, there is nothing to ensure Wasps and CSF provide even the lower level of facilities.

    But what most certainly would meet the E5 provision would be if Wasps had stayed at the temporary facility permanent, or developed by the Ricoh, or developed land adjacent to Higgs.
     
  15. stupot07

    stupot07 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still not sure where WAPS academy are going to be based of the RFU do change thr boundaries. The proposed usage and facilities Wasps is just for wasps first team squad isn't it?

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  16. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Academy is moving to Cov as well. There was a lot of talk of at least one other local team taking legal action but they have now come to an agreement with Wasps, make of that what you will.
     
  17. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    All well and good CD but the decision has been made, and I can see no mechanism to challenge the Sports England decision. Neither of us are specialists in planning regulation and you would have to assume that Sports England and Secretary of State have no bias and are not working in collusion to prejudice CCFC. Given the contentious nature although the investigation might not have been in great depth it doesn't mean there was no investigation

    There doesn't seem to be any grounds to challenge the Secretary of State and CCC planning decisions either. Nor any way it seems to me that is likely to be successful of challenging the decisions of CAWAT, CSF, AEHC, Wasps etc. In those circumstances surely we have to look for solutions going forward that retains the Cat 2 status of the CCFC Academy. All the above parties have repeatedly said that the location of CCFC Academy is a logistical not planning issue - it is the club, understandably, that has sought to make it a planning issue and failed to make even a basic case. We need to concentrate now on solutions.

    That said a few points. We as CCFC fans look at it from a CCFC perspective, rightly - Sports England have to take a much broader view and apply that to the E5 criteria. They will also have had to consider not just the effect at AHC but also the Effect in more general terms City wide. Sports England have to consider all sporting usage not just Football use

    Netball courts - as I understand it the reason the courts stopped being used 7 years ago is because the surface did not meet the governing body regulations and therefore could not be used for Netball. Not fit for purpose. The Sports England criteria clearly refers to usage in the last 5 years. There hasn't been any. Therefore in their considerations the loss of the netball courts will carry little weight because it ceased 7 years ago and are not suitable for use

    Pitch analysis. The Sports England email 29 July 2016 states of the 5 pitches that 4 were exclusive to CCFC Academy with 1 as community use. Based on the usage agreement then that means CCFC had first call on booking those pitches. That gives the total capacity for football at 20 matches (4 per pitch). The actual football usage was 12.75 matches per week so the pitches were not being used to capacity. What will be left for football is potentially 2 pitches that can be used for football (8 matches). However the capacity on the site will be 16 sports matches because the other two pitches will be used for Rugby - that might be exclusive to Wasps but the current situation is the pitches are exclusive to CCFC (should they want them). Football requires on average 12.75 matches per week and therefore there is a shortfall that will require finding two other pitches to use (see previous comments re Warwick Uni/ Ryton etc for potential solutions to that). The change from Football to rugby is not a planning issue, and any usage by CCFC can only be referred to as potential because as yet CCFC only have rights to be there after 30/06/17

    We are of course assuming that the 12.75 hours relates to usage by CCFC, which I am not sure is the case having coached several amateur teams that have played there

    Indoor pitch - At the time of the letter there was an intention but no planning permission for the pool so Sports England have assessed on what is plus the project they were asked to comment on. Frankly that's the bit that is wrong because it is the new pool that threatens the Academy more than anything else. Not sure how the two projects can be regarded as separate. That said on their chosen basis there is a net increase in hours for indoor sports of all kinds of 2088 hours if both indoor facilities retained. Ah but the current indoor space will be lost to the pool and there is a potential shortfall of 192 hours if that happens - correct if current indoor space not used/developed and that shortfall will if CCFC stay come out of the community use I suspect. But what the assessment fails to account for is the sports usage hours that replaces the current indoor space ie the pool. So over all sports is there a net loss of usage hours on the site once all development is done? The building of the kicking barn provides the scope to build the pool and increase total sports hours at the site and overall sports usage is what is important to Sports England and enables them to reach the opinion stated. It also provides a required facility in the City and part of a solution to Cat 2

    Looking at the Wasps development alone then the actual loss caused by it is the lost capacity of 4 sports matches per week. Looking at the whole project when developed then there is for the site a net increase in usage hours across all sports once the pool is built. Looking at it from CCFC point of view there is the loss of possibly 4.75 matches on site per week on average and the loss of perhaps some indoor facilities like offices etc that they currently access (should they accept using the kicking barn). CCFC can not be accommodated 100% on the AHC site, but split sites are acceptable for Cat 2 Academies

    Sports England clearly state that the issues surrounding CCFC Academy are not planning issues and that while they are keen to see those issues resolved and assist it does not form part of their evaluation

    Kicking Barn - apparently is twice the size of the current indoor facilities. I would think that the usage analysis refers to hours for the total unit. If it is twice the size does that mean that in actual fact CCFC could up the hours of indoor coaching across the age groups (eg instead of the just U9s using it at a set time could they share the space with say the U10's at the same time) Logistics and timetabling. CA stated the club needed 12 hours indoor per week, we have been potentially offered 15

    Obviously there are times when CCFC usage is more than average or less than, surely that comes back logistics and timetabling

    Not sure any of the above kills the Academy Cat 2 unless parties dig their heels in and are inflexible or decide to kill it off. Should know more week beginning 19th September I hope

    Got to start pressing all the parties to find solutions, we are stuck with the decisions whether we think they are right or not

    Time that SISU, CCFC, CSF, Wasps took and agreed actions to save our Academy. I can see potential areas where a solution can be found, is there the will though?

    We don't have to like it and I don't but it is what is

    Solutions
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  18. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    I believe the only route open to challenging approved planning decisions is judicial review. I think both OSB abd CD make valid points here, and my personal opinion is that whichever way Sport England went, there was room for challenge by the other side. Having thought about it in more general terms unrelated to the academy, I also think Sport England are pretty weak - they seem to look for ways to approve plans rather than stand against them, but perhaps that's their brief.

    One thing is for sure, if SISU think that there's even a chance of making some money out of this in court, then that's where we'll be heading again.

    I think the net result of this is that we don't keep the academy. SISU are looking to cut costs, and the Council, CSF and Wasps have given them the perfect reason to do so with regard to the academy. Again, the owners are entirely shambolic, but in the end I think it will be the actions of the Council and Wasps that finally drive the club out of the city (or worse).
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  19. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    I think that's a pretty fair summation duffer
     
  20. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

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    I concur. But remain hopeful SISU will be driven out eventually, unless they've a scheme to make big bucks out of the club.
     
  21. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    More and more, Cap'n, I can only think the end game is a big punt on getting damages from the various court cases. In the meantime I honestly don't think there's enough left now to interest any potential purchaser.

    I'd be delighted to proved wrong - one day SISU will bugger off, and assuming that the club is still alive I'll be opening the champagne. I guess we all will!
     
  22. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

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    Only people it would be worth something to now would be a Wasps related subsidiary, taking us out of administration on a penny for every pound debt or something silly like that.
     
  23. stupot07

    stupot07 Well-Known Member

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    Its not really worth it to wasps either, football clubs are money pits, and 'fluking to the PL' won't even come into their thinking.

    I can't see us ever getting to the PL again.

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  24. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. If it's running at nearly paying for itself.

    I Wasps give it the sort of PR that they do with everything else.

    For them they could get an additional 10,000 into the Ricoh every other week.
    They would have full access everything bar compass aswell.

    Plus if they had the future of the club secured that would smooth things a bit better on the sponsorship front.
     
  25. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    If it is nearly paying for itself then it will need additional funds every year - if they get promoted even more funds just to pay competitive salaries. They are not at self sufficiency, at least up until 2015 that is, even if you ignore interest.

    They might get bigger crowds for CCFC but Wasps would benefit possibly better by a sub lease and taking a cut of profits after costs from anything CCFC bring to the stadium. Tie CCFC to a lease, why do Wasps need to own them, why do they need to take the risk?

    What you appear to be suggesting is that funds currently 100% used to back Wasps would be split between Wasps & CCFC. Why would that make sense to Wasps? Then they will need capital on top to invest in players. Also think you need to check out how it works between the Wasps Holdings Group and Compass. Due to the money pit that football is and the parlous state of CCFC would it actually improve the lease covenant that has been charged to bond holders or .......?

    Do we actually know there is a problem relating to sponsorship that owning CCFC would help smooth over? Might be that they are waiting for the annual results to make announcement - we don't actually klnow
     
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  26. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    response by CCFC

    A Coventry City spokesperson said: “Coventry City FC are disappointed to learn of the news that planning application has been approved at the Alan Higgs site, without recourse to consideration of whether the category two status of the Coventry City Academy is under threat.

    “We do however look forward to an all-party meeting in the coming weeks to explore the possibility of the future use of the facilities by the club at the Higgs Centre.

    “Importantly, the club will be continuing to work to ensure that the Academy’s category two status is maintained in line with the criteria outlined by the Premier League"

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-disappointed-wasps-plans-11864010
     
  27. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

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    If the club is self funding or nearly self funding.
    Wasps have control of the additional revenue that we apparently need access to for the club to survive.
    If CCFC go under or somehow go elsewhere Wasps are left with a stadium that is used 50% less of the time.
    Wasps must be benefiting from CCFC been at the stadium.
    I am sure their model will include the possibility of CCFC not been there.
    However it would be better for them if CCFC are there.
    If somehow Wasps were able to get the club for a swan song. (Without the debts)
    If the club is paying for itself. Then why would Wasps need to inject a lot more cash into the club.
    By securing CCFC to the Ricoh long term would that not instantly increase the value of ACL?
    Do you not believe that sponsorship and advertising would increase for the Ricoh as a whole if the future of the football club was secure and tied in to the Ricoh a positive, if the uncertainty and negative publicity surrounding the club was gone. I am guessing that would also have a positive impact on sponsorship and marketing.
    If Wasps had ownership of the football club. They could reduce the costs of running it further by using a lot of their staff and facilities in order to run it. They could take on additional staff but they would already have the club shop and the ticket office within their costs for example. A marketing department. PR, Advertising.
    Sporting professionals such as psychologists, physios ect. What if the training ground could be adapted for fuel purpose?
    These costs are already part of the club's current costs but I am sure Wasps would be able to achieve some more cost cutting.

    I maybe wrong but if SISU are planning to leave and it is not done via a sale of the club. Then it will probably happen after costs have been cut again dramatically and possibly after a relegation. ( speculation of course)

    Wasps wouldn't necessarily need promotions. (Although personally that the only way for me that you make some real money)

    They would just need to keep the club ticking over and surely the benefits to them would outweigh the negatives?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  28. SkyBlue_Bear83

    SkyBlue_Bear83 Well-Known Member

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    We will be fortunate to be in the football league, between them CCC and SISU have destroyed the club. Wasps are just like vultures stripping a dead carcass.
     
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