The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

More independent than the government site that takes their numbers from official figures but wants it to sound better than it is?

you do realise it gets heavily criticised by the left for skewing figures?

 

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[chiefdave]

Seems to be a problem with law enforcement. May talks about modern slavery, but it is very common and not just with EU migrants. The same goes for a lack of minimum wage enforcement. I cannot understand why these things are not top of the list of things to control.

This is the key here. If we can't enforce the current laws and regulations then leaving or remaining becomes irrelevant.

Increase the minimum wage to a true living wage and sort out workers rights such as how zero hours contracts are abused. That would also help get the benefits bill down. If you had a genuine living wage requirement for employers then in work benefits should drop massively, they're currently at a record high.

 

[Astute]

I thought you were on migration watch.

Just read this bit again. It was Clint who posted the link to migration watch and said it was less biased than the official government site which uses official numbers.

At least you can now see what I am up against here.

 

[Astute]

you do realise it gets heavily criticised by the left for skewing figures?

Yes the site you linked does get heavily criticised. Ask Mart

 

[Astute]

This is the key here. If we can't enforce the current laws and regulations then leaving or remaining becomes irrelevant.

Increase the minimum wage to a true living wage and sort out workers rights such as how zero hours contracts are abused. That would also help get the benefits bill down. If you had a genuine living wage requirement for employers then in work benefits should drop massively, they're currently at a record high.

We can't enforce present rules as Juncker and the rest of the gravy trainers have other rules that make sure you can't do what you want.

But I agree with the rest. Pay people a decent wage and there are always people willing to do a decent days work.

 

[Astute]

Just the emphasis is different. I see EU immigration as beneficial to a point and it is reciprocal. Non EU immigration- the unskilled and uneducated part - is a potential much greater problem because of the sheer numbers, and there is no reciprocal benefit ( in most cases we can't go there and use their facilities ). The refugees are a different case and hopefully the war will be over soon. For better or worse.

Yes it is beneficial to a point. But also detrimental to another. And we should always put those already here and nowhere to live before those that want to come here.

 

[clint van damme]

Just read this bit again. It was Clint who posted the link to migration watch and said it was less biased than the official government site which uses official numbers.

At least you can now see what I am up against here.

I never said it was less biased, It gets criticised for skewing it's figures to make the picture look worse. I purposely used this site rather than one with left wing leanings because I knew you'd dismiss that.
When I initially referenced that site you said it was a government site though to be fair I didn't link Migrant watch which would have made things clearer.

 

[martcov]

Yes the site you linked does get heavily criticised. Ask Mart

The criticism I referred to was from the Cameron camp.

 

[Astute]

I'm losing the will to live here.

So is the link I put up supposed to be left, right or centre?

Both Tories and Labour were in power. Both would have preferred the public to have thought that less people had come here. None of it was put together by the Tories or Labour. Lots of people work on keeping the national statistics together. Each census is as accurate as the people living here put on the census forms.

It isn't done by any mickey mouse organisations that would prefer us to be in or out of the EU.

So it is as accurate as we will get. But it doesn't include the very large amount of illegal immigrants that are here.

A census asks what nationality and much more. So would anyone like to suggest something more accurate?

 

[Astute]

The criticism I referred to was from the Cameron camp.

I have many criticisms of both Cameron and Bliar. But that is for another thread. This one is going all over the place as it is.

 

[clint van damme]

I'm losing the will to live here.

So is the link I put up supposed to be left, right or centre?

Both Tories and Labour were in power. Both would have preferred the public to have thought that less people had come here. None of it was put together by the Tories or Labour. Lots of people work on keeping the national statistics together. Each census is as accurate as the people living here put on the census forms.

It isn't done by any mickey mouse organisations that would prefer us to be in or out of the EU.

So it is as accurate as we will get. But it doesn't include the very large amount of illegal immigrants that are here.

A census asks what nationality and much more. So would anyone like to suggest something more accurate?

You keep mentioning illegals but as I said, how id Brexit going to sort that? That is a failure of the authorities under successive governments to tackle crime - I can't see how leaving the EU will help.
You haven't answered my questions regarding what will happen to industries that rely on immigration or whether you would give into Indias demands for more relaxed entry requirements into the UK for Indian citizens in return for a trade deal - genuinely interested to hear what you think.

 

[Grendel]

You keep mentioning illegals but as I said, how id Brexit going to sort that? That is a failure of the authorities under successive governments to tackle crime - I can't see how leaving the EU will help.
You haven't answered my questions regarding what will happen to industries that rely on immigration or whether you would give into Indias demands for more relaxed entry requirements into the UK for Indian citizens in return for a trade deal - genuinely interested to hear what you think.

What will happen is that the uk will control the migration flow to suit its needs which oddly is what the majority of countries do and seem to balance supply and demand well.

I've said many times I have no interest in immigration and don't see it as an issue - control is though. I don't see the EU offers advantages versus a controlled process which most countries work with. If we hadn't joined the eu I don't think we'd now be in a position where the service industries go bankrupt through lack of labour supply.

 

[clint van damme]

What will happen is that the uk will control the migration flow to suit its needs which oddly is what the majority of countries do and seem to balance supply and demand well.

I've said many times I have no interest in immigration and don't see it as an issue - control is though. I don't see the EU offers advantages versus a controlled process which most countries work with. If we hadn't joined the eu I don't think we'd now be in a position where the service industries go bankrupt through lack of labour supply.

I agree with much of the sentiment of that post but I would say that the EU has been a convenient scapegoat for immigration when there seems to have been a lack of will to enforce better control from successive Governments.

With regard to the service industry not going bust due to lack of labour supply, that may true but at what cost if UK nationals have to start serving coffee and cleaning hotel rooms? I don't think they'll want to do it for £7 an hour. I posted on this thread previously that the company I work for, (not the best payers for shop floor staff to be honest), literally can't recruit from the local population.

We had 5 ridiculously busy years where you could literally walk off the street and get a job starting within a day or two and we had a ludicrously low number of British people bother.

 

[clint van damme]

I have many criticisms of both Cameron and Bliar. But that is for another thread. This one is going all over the place as it is.

just browsing the other boards this thread is probably more on topic than nearly every other one on the whole fucking forum!! Place is barkin'!

 

[Astute]

You keep mentioning illegals but as I said, how id Brexit going to sort that? That is a failure of the authorities under successive governments to tackle crime - I can't see how leaving the EU will help.
You haven't answered my questions regarding what will happen to industries that rely on immigration or whether you would give into Indias demands for more relaxed entry requirements into the UK for Indian citizens in return for a trade deal - genuinely interested to hear what you think.

I think we will have to see what sort of deal is made. Then we can guess what will happen.

We have a better chance of sorting this mess out if we make the decisions and not Juncker.

We should pay a living wage for all jobs. Then they will find the workers.

I don't mind where the migrants come from as long as they have the right skills. The more that arrive with the wrong skills the more we need with the right skills.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm losing the will to live here.

This is something we can all agree on.

 

[Astute]

This is something we can all agree on.

It is simple. It is all out our hands. It is all down to the idiots that put us into this situation now.

If it all goes tits up in the UK I will retire and move to the EU :smuggrin:

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It is simple. It is all out our hands. It is all down to the idiots that put us into this situation now.

If it all goes tits up in the UK I will retire and move to the EU :smuggrin:

Do they have a City Arms there?

 

[Astute]

Do they have a City Arms there?

My sister has a pub in France. She was alsi born and dragged up in Coventry. Does that count?

 

[dutchman]

We had 5 ridiculously busy years where you could literally walk off the street and get a job starting within a day or two and we had a ludicrously low number of British people bother.

That's probably true of any western european nation though, not just Britain.

 

[martcov]

Do they have a City Arms there?

I have a decent little pub - more like the Nursery Tavern than The City Arms though. I do show City games when it is possible.

 

[martcov]

I agree with much of the sentiment of that post but I would say that the EU has been a convenient scapegoat for immigration when there seems to have been a lack of will to enforce better control from successive Governments.

With regard to the service industry not going bust due to lack of labour supply, that may true but at what cost if UK nationals have to start serving coffee and cleaning hotel rooms? I don't think they'll want to do it for £7 an hour. I posted on this thread previously that the company I work for, (not the best payers for shop floor staff to be honest), literally can't recruit from the local population.

We had 5 ridiculously busy years where you could literally walk off the street and get a job starting within a day or two and we had a ludicrously low number of British people bother.

The service industry is labour intensive. Take pubs and restaurants. Pubs are already suffering. It is hard to compete with supermarket prices. If we paid a higher wage it would further lessen demand. We cannot replace staff with machines. We can only reduce opening hours or raise prices to cover the increased wages. You also have to have the right attitude to work in the service industry. You can be highly qualified and/ or well paid, but if you cannot enjoy working with people and put up with anti social hours, you won't do the job anyway. It isn't just the money, it's the working times. People from poorer countries will take that to get a better living standard than at home .

 

[chiefdave]

Hmmm, May now proposing that we keep paying into the EU until we can work out what we want to do. What are the odds that the couple of years being proposed will be extended several times.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Hmmm, May now proposing that we keep paying into the EU until we can work out what we want to do. What are the odds that the couple of years being proposed will be extended several times.

The woman is not fit enough to lead the country. She's a clueless stumble-bum.

New balls please.

 

[Astute]

The woman is not fit enough to lead the country. She's a clueless stumble-bum.

New balls please.

Maggie might have done a lot of things wrong. But at least she had balls and wouldn't let the EU push her about. We still to this day get a rebate because of her.

 

[Kingokings204]

The woman is not fit enough to lead the country. She's a clueless stumble-bum.

New balls please.

Not what we voted for. Triggering article 50 mrs may is the 2 year transitional deal for brexit. No one on either side voted for a transitional deal. A victory for Westminster and the polical class who want us to remain in the EU. I am very angry about this but it was alaways going to happen so that's life.

 

[Grendel]

Maggie might have done a lot of things wrong. But at least she had balls and wouldn't let the EU push her about. We still to this day get a rebate because of her.

She was obsessed with Europe

 

[Sick Boy]

The woman is not fit enough to lead the country. She's a clueless stumble-bum.

New balls please.

You'd think that having had 40 years to prepare for this the Brexiteers would already know what to do. Undoing the intertwining of the economies will take decades, not a couple of years.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Not what we voted for.

Here we go, the bloke who's spoken to everyone in the country again.

Whoever thought it'd be easy to disentangle is, quite frankly, a mentalist.

Don't see the issue in smoothing a passage to exit, myself. Would rather that than the utter disaster if we just jump out without our life jackets.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Here we go, the bloke who's spoken to everyone in the country again.

Whoever thought it'd be easy to disentangle is, quite frankly, a mentalist.

Don't see the issue in smoothing a passage to exit, myself. Would rather that than the utter disaster if we just jump out without our life jackets.

I dunno a few years of mad max would be a laugh. The young could eat the old then ask the EU if we are allowed back in.

 

[Kingokings204]

Here we go, the bloke who's spoken to everyone in the country again.

Whoever thought it'd be easy to disentangle is, quite frankly, a mentalist.

Don't see the issue in smoothing a passage to exit, myself. Would rather that than the utter disaster if we just jump out without our life jackets.

I Didn't think it would take you long to reply as today is a great victory for you. I concede to you. Yes we get to remain in the EU for another 2 years after 2019 until at least 2021 and then it will be kicked into the long grass again and maybe 2025 2028? Who knows.

Congratulations on a successful day for you sir.

 

[Grendel]

You'd think that having had 40 years to prepare for this the Brexiteers would already know what to do. Undoing the intertwining of the economies will take decades, not a couple of years.

So you like being entwined in an organisation you can't extract yourself from. Good luck when the Greeks bail and there's no mechanism to escape the Euro

Your argument has all the depth of someone from primary school

 

[Sick Boy]

So you like being entwined in an organisation you can't extract yourself from. Good luck when the Greeks bail and there's no mechanism to escape the Euro

Your argument has all the depth of someone from primary school

An organisation that the British shaped? If you think that it can be undone within a couple of years you're even more deluded that I thought. After your predictions of the end of Labour, I'm not sure how mic credibility you have left.

 

[Grendel]

An organisation that the British shaped? If you think that it can be undone within a couple of years you're even more deluded that I thought. After your predictions of the end of Labour, I'm not sure how mic credibility you have left.

The British didn't shape it - a bewildering statement.

As for the end of labour the fact that they performed miles beyond expectations and still failed miserably in terms of forming a majority hardly is losing credibility.

We won't have a labour majority in parliament again

 

[westcountry_skyblue]

This is the key here. If we can't enforce the current laws and regulations then leaving or remaining becomes irrelevant.

Increase the minimum wage to a true living wage and sort out workers rights such as how zero hours contracts are abused. That would also help get the benefits bill down. If you had a genuine living wage requirement for employers then in work benefits should drop massively, they're currently at a record high.

I am sure Labour brought in the Zero hours contracts?