WASPS Interim Accounts

Discussion in 'Wasps' started by oldfiver, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. oldfiver

    oldfiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    311
  2. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    Interesting analysis of the spend at the Arena. Although not clear whether it is accounting for just the Wasps share of F&B income or the lot:

    F&B Spend Per Head Rugby at year end 2015: £6.80
    F&B Spend Her Head Football at year end 2015: £1.93 (even it it was only the Wasps share, it's considerably lower)

    Naming rights at the Ricoh extended

    Presumably Wasps Finance PLC is the vehicle through which the bonds were issued?

    Property plan and equipment valued at £54m!

    £38m of debt, the bond repayable in 2022 at a variable rate, not disclosed. £7.9m to Richardson at a rate 4% above the Barclays Base Rate, interested waived for the accounting period.

    Operating loss for 2015, mention of non-recurrent costs contributing to this.
     
  3. CJ_covblaze

    CJ_covblaze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,994
    Likes Received:
    732
    Location:
    Coventry
    Would the property include their training facilities?
     
  4. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,059
    Likes Received:
    10,622
    Location:
    Coventry
    For how long and how much?
     
  5. CJ_covblaze

    CJ_covblaze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,994
    Likes Received:
    732
    Location:
    Coventry
    I believe it was extended until a new sponsor could be found.
     
  6. tisza

    tisza Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    858
    Likes Received:
    190
    fisher had said previously (SCG minutes c. 2012/13) that football f&b spend was less than 2 pound a head.
     
  7. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,059
    Likes Received:
    10,622
    Location:
    Coventry
    The difference between football and rugby is about the price of a pint at the Ricoh. Given that you can drink in your seat at the rugby and Wasps have the bars open, and entertainment provided, for hours before and after matches I'm surprised the difference isn't greater.
     
  8. Covstu

    Covstu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    9,078
    Likes Received:
    938
    Location:
    Costa del Cov
    whats the difference out of interest as the football beer prices are extortionate!
     
  9. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,900
    Likes Received:
    1,965
  10. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    11,305
    Location:
    Coventry
    All the information on various Wasps accounts are on the LSE website

    http://www.londonstockexchange.com/...ny-news.html?fourWayKey=XS1221940510ZZGBPUKCP

    Figures have to be produced every 6 months under terms of the bond and published within 4 months of the accounts date

    Main points are as above. I would think given the increase in turnover there must be some disappointment that there is no profit shown. But not necessarily so it may well be what is planned at this stage. However the bond price indicates the market is happy with the news.

    Very simplistic I know but double the turnovers and that gives the group around £30m income for the year. That's pretty healthy for a white elephant owned by a failing rugby team. The costs I would think will have included some one offs but not sure how much so a straight doubling probably doesn't work. Annual results I would expect to be better than last year but still showing a loss

    Need to get past this lease "no way its worth that much" - professional valuers say it is and they are far better placed to put a value on it than anyone here. The increase is the capitalisation of the works done for the hotel & atrium.

    They still haven't drawn down all the bond money but have repaid more the Richardson so reducing overall debt. Don't get hung up on the repayment of the bond either - repayment doesn't have to be in cash

    I would think they (Wasps) would say all is at least on target. Unfortunately I think that's bad news for CCFC because if it continues Wasps get stronger financially and we still have no financial asset base to build from, not even a small one and have committed nothing to anything long term whatever the option
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2016
  11. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    It states the bond is repayable by a lump sum in 2022. Would you mind explaining a bit further?
     
  12. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    11,305
    Location:
    Coventry
    well they could issue bond no 2 for example . or go for a full flotation of the shares and repay with the proceeds. it isn't necessarily about saving up the cash out of profits
     
  13. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    Ah, no different from what I understood anyway.
     
  14. ranstone

    ranstone Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting to read your insight OSB ... thanks
     
  15. ranstone

    ranstone Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to the CT its been extended for a fixed short term which has not been disclosed, its not for a rolling period.
     
  16. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,900
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    I would hazard a guess that the short term period is tied to the presence of CCFC at the arena. They have just signed up for 2 more years.
    Till there is a longer agreement with CCFC then it will be more difficult to attract sponsors for a longer period.
     
  17. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    11,305
    Location:
    Coventry
    article in CT is here http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/wasps-rfc-confirm-ricoh-arena-11022072

    Apparently the f&B per head for football is before CCFC take their cut. 18 games so far for CCFC 231720 attendance total - total F&B before split between Wasps and CCFC is £456,488. If costs taken out then I would bet on CCFC share being far less than £200k

    What this does give is an indication of F&B at any potential new stadium where CCFC would get 100% of the income but also 100% of the costs.

    Wasps earnt 5.84 per head from 6 matches with attendances of 91986 = 537,198. Far fewer feet through the door but a much better return
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  18. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    On a 10 year deal it would be nice to see who will be at the stadium during that period.
     
  19. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    18,476
    Likes Received:
    5,161
    Does this mean Wasps are not going to be running at a loss for the foreseeable and people can forget about waiting till they break.
    Can we get signed up long term now and for some kind of a partnership. Remove all this uncertainty from our football club? Maybe also get that breakeven point down to the 8000 fan mark?
     
  20. stupot07

    stupot07 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    22,380
    Likes Received:
    6,873
    Does wasps include the pre/post match entertainment? Also football kiosks pretty much close after half time, so Wasps will have higher costs as staff will be working longer.

    And also, the ACL QnA suggested that profit margin on f&b's was only 11%. So although revenues look good, actual useable revenues are poor.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  21. ranstone

    ranstone Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2015
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another guess from me would be that its been extended until JLR sort everything out and are ready to buy in to the sponsorship
     
  22. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    Yet CCFC have no right to any of that sponsorship income.
     
  23. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    Yes OSB, the margin on F&B isn't as good as you'd expect either, think the costs were in the region of £390k for a £456k return.
     
  24. albatross

    albatross Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    179
    Even if CCFC's share of the £456k is much less that £200K it will probably still cover the rent of the stadium and some of the match day costs.
     
  25. stupot07

    stupot07 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    22,380
    Likes Received:
    6,873
    From the Q&A

    12: £100,000 has been publicised as the value of food and beverage income – is this 50% of the profits i.e. ACL’s half from the EIC joint venture?

    ACL: In principle – we have all accepted that more work is needed on the detail of this, and it needs to be agreed with ACL’s contracted partner Compass, so it is not simply in ACL’s gift. Of course match-day income is also influenced by attendances, these we have seen drop from an average of 13,126 in 11/12 to a current year to date average of 9,259

    Match-day F&B Turnover in 11/12 season was £1,010,992, with Nett Profit of £119,903.

    ACL would be willing to give CCFC full details of the F & B accounts and were prepared to go open book and even allow CCFC to use the revenue figures in the clubs FFP calculations


    http://www.skybluetrust.co.uk/index...le?id=227:full-version-of-qaa-to-acl-and-ccfc

    The profit margin is about 11%, so if it's £450k before the the 50:50 split, then that's £225k. There's only a 11% profit margin so after costs that equates to about £25k to the club.

    In fact even though wasps customers spend more after costs it's only £60k profit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
     
  26. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    11,305
    Location:
    Coventry
    Sorry stupot but there is no point quoting the Trust Q&A's the whole basis of supply etc has changed since Wasps came in - those percentages no longer apply.

    That said there is little in it for the club

    Wasps in the interims quote

    F&B income as 3.193m in total (including the matches both sports I assume)
    F&B cost as 2.062m
    but don't quantify the wages costs associated
     
  27. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    4,900
    Likes Received:
    1,965
    Yes because they didn't buy the Area lease & let somebody else gazump them. Another strategic error down to SISU.
     
  28. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,070
    Likes Received:
    6,723
    Not really about the lease ownership, if CCFC have a material effect on the value of the sponsorship deal they should receive a cut of it. It doesn't have to be connected to ownership or otherwise of the property.
     
  29. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    Your right . But it can also have a negative effect if there is a court battle or chance of relegation to L2.
     
  30. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    4,877
    Likes Received:
    3,906
    Location:
    Deepest Warwickshire
    Not sure how court battle is that negative on Ricoh. It puts their name in the papers more, and most people couldnt give a flying fig apart from us loacls.
     
  31. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    4,777
    Hmm.

    What I'm taking from this is a company that despite being gifted a stadium isn't yet turning a profit, with an obligation to pay over £2.3 million in interest on a £35 million loan which will also need to be paid back in 2022. I'm not saying that Wasps will fail anytime soon - but as headline news that doesn't look overly healthy to me.

    Profit margins look pretty low, and they've been heavily discounting a key part of the product too (tickets), which also isn't a great mix from what I can recall of my limited financial knowledge. Evidence doesn't suggest that they're gaining much traction in terms of increased attendances, in fact I think it's the opposite for most games.

    I take OSB's very legitimate point that the market still considers the bonds to be worth around the original value, but I do see some smoke and mirrors in terms of the security for them (a stadium that they don't own the freehold on, which loses a lot of value if Wasps aren't there, which they won't be if they're going bust and the bonds can't be repaid!).

    I'm not challenging OSB's analysis here by the way - it's as honest and detailed as ever, but I don't quite see it the same way.

    Regardless, they're still a franchise, they still don't have Coventry in their name or their heritage, and they're still in the way of the football club getting what they need. Personally, as a CCFC/CRFC fan I can see no reason to support them.
     
  32. Jack Griffin

    Jack Griffin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    7,382
    Likes Received:
    2
    CCFC are in a much worse hole, their figures are substantially worse, compare them.

    CCFC operating loss was £1.9M on an annual turnover of £4.7M, they owe £10.5M to ARVO.
    Wasps operating lost was £0.2M on a 6 month turnover of £15.5M, they owe £30.7M to Wasps Finance.

    Which company looks the most healthy?

    PS I will never go to a Rugby match, I don't follow Rugby & never will. I prefer to watch paint dry.
     
  33. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    4,777
    All fair enough, but CCFC are 8th in the third division of football. Wasps are 4th/5th in the top division of Rugby. We've got plenty of room for improvement and the potential to one day access the richest league in the world. Where do Wasps go from here?

    As for Rugby v Football, it's like Beatles v Stones - it's just a matter of taste. Go with what you like.
     
  34. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    11,931
    Likes Received:
    3,511
    I suppose Wasps improvements will be a expanding fan base and developments at the Ricoh.

    No doubt though that CCFC are a sleeping giant and the potential from where we are is huge.
    It's just how we get there is the problem.
     
  35. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    18,476
    Likes Received:
    5,161
    Regarding your last paragraph. I have no interest in Rugby and do not support Wasps.
    However I can see the only sensible option for CCFC is to try and get the best partnership with them as we can possibly get that gives us the most access to revenues and more importantly long term stability.
    There are some who refuse to accept this, purely based on their hate for Wasps. I couldnt give a stuff about them really.
    I just see holding out till they break or building a new stadium as non options and we just tread in this abyss whilst blindly following this path.
    Unfortunately even though it would be best for the football club I am unsure if it would be best for SISU as a business in terms of recouping its investment.
    So hopefully the legal action somehow dies that and will allow decisions to me made purely on what is best for the long term future of the club.
     

Share This Page