Why are we in such a financial mess relative to other clubs our size? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter OyJimmy
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Ernie Machin
New Member
Nick has this covered.
Bryan Richardson = No stadium. No stadium = no income. No income = No players. No players = no success. No success = No fans in stadium.
Let's keep it positive. PUSB!
Bryan Richardson = No stadium. No stadium = no income. No income = No players. No players = no success. No success = No fans in stadium.
Let's keep it positive. PUSB!
CovKingChris
Facebook User
If I'm not mistaken, Norwich were in a poorer financial position than us the season just passed, obviously their promotion has taken them out of it.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
and 9 years later it is still all his fault is it ? Its that simple is it ? :facepalm:
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Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
Gambling in the first season! We should have probably gone into admin before rules came out after BR pissed off! But we tryed to do the right thing!
johnniericoh
Member
Just look at the last ten seasons - 10 managers, several chairmen, umpteen directors, scores of players.
How about that for stability, progress and success.
We must, on the playing side, have patience and confidence with the incumbent manager - once a year changeover = turmoil and upheaval.
We must have areliable benefactor even with modest investment.
We must give our fanbase hope and vision to stick with the club.
Simples Innit ??
PUSB
How about that for stability, progress and success.
We must, on the playing side, have patience and confidence with the incumbent manager - once a year changeover = turmoil and upheaval.
We must have areliable benefactor even with modest investment.
We must give our fanbase hope and vision to stick with the club.
Simples Innit ??
PUSB
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Yes.
It was on his watch that the City were relegated, put £60m in debt, and sold our home.
That is a crippled ship. Even when we cut costs to the bone in the McGinnity/McAllister era, we were still running at a loss. Can you think of any plan to make the club profitable that doesn't involve substantial outside investment?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
yes I can .... its called actually living within the means of the club........... year to 31/05/10 we paid 111% of turnover as wages year before was 118% and thats before any other overheads! ...... that is unsustainable and has nothing at all to do with Richardson. Check out the new proposed rules for financial control, they go to the real heart of the matter.
Yes i understand what that might mean for the quality of player we might get and our league prospects.......... but whats more important a season or two of half chance (most likely 18th position) or a secure and long term future ?
Could we have stayed at HR, yes but I doubt the current position would have been any different because we would have mortgaged it to the hilt to just keep going (with crippling finance costs), maybe even had to sell and rent back. Was the Ricoh a good idea i think so, because it has great potential if they get it right, you would not have got the other income sources it develops at HR. No we dont own it, but we have the possibility of doing so in the future, and without the sale of HR we would have been in the nightmare financial meltdown long ago
I also doubt if you check , that the £60m debt was all attributable to Richardsons tenure, we have been losing money for decades. Had we not sold the ground we would have been bust 10 years ago. At the time I reckon there were not many fans complaining about the money being spent on players, we were still living beyond our means though werent we. Plus there were others on the Board who could and should have done better..... its called joint and several liability. Also the current debt of the club doesnt actually cost the club anything because SISU &co own most of it and charge no interest ... it doesnt look good on the balance sheet but it is not what is making the situation worse it doesnt increase the annual losses.
Think you will also find that a big chunk of those £60m debts were written off when SISU took over or deferred with little prospect of ever being paid.
The criticism I might have is that as a Board we didnt have the balls back then to do what our M69 neighbours did and go into administration whilst we actually had some assets.... rise from the ashes at a time it was easier to do so ..... but then do/did i really want the club in administration ? Oh and from memory Festers administration caused delays and added millions to our new stadium, even added millions to our annual losses due to finance costs, pity we didnt get in first.
I am no fan of Richardson but I am at least more realistic than some. So before folk go blaming one particular member of a board of directors for all our woes lets have some facts supported by real evidence, not just expressions of opinion that are asserted as fact. If those proper facts prove the case then I will accept it is all Richardsons fault but somehow I think people are being naiive in their financial assessment. You cannot write off the last 9 years or the many and various contributions of others.
Not one Board of Directors (maybe SISU & co do) and very few fans have embraced the fact that we live beyond the means of the club and its unsustainable!
Yes i understand what that might mean for the quality of player we might get and our league prospects.......... but whats more important a season or two of half chance (most likely 18th position) or a secure and long term future ?
Could we have stayed at HR, yes but I doubt the current position would have been any different because we would have mortgaged it to the hilt to just keep going (with crippling finance costs), maybe even had to sell and rent back. Was the Ricoh a good idea i think so, because it has great potential if they get it right, you would not have got the other income sources it develops at HR. No we dont own it, but we have the possibility of doing so in the future, and without the sale of HR we would have been in the nightmare financial meltdown long ago
I also doubt if you check , that the £60m debt was all attributable to Richardsons tenure, we have been losing money for decades. Had we not sold the ground we would have been bust 10 years ago. At the time I reckon there were not many fans complaining about the money being spent on players, we were still living beyond our means though werent we. Plus there were others on the Board who could and should have done better..... its called joint and several liability. Also the current debt of the club doesnt actually cost the club anything because SISU &co own most of it and charge no interest ... it doesnt look good on the balance sheet but it is not what is making the situation worse it doesnt increase the annual losses.
Think you will also find that a big chunk of those £60m debts were written off when SISU took over or deferred with little prospect of ever being paid.
The criticism I might have is that as a Board we didnt have the balls back then to do what our M69 neighbours did and go into administration whilst we actually had some assets.... rise from the ashes at a time it was easier to do so ..... but then do/did i really want the club in administration ? Oh and from memory Festers administration caused delays and added millions to our new stadium, even added millions to our annual losses due to finance costs, pity we didnt get in first.
I am no fan of Richardson but I am at least more realistic than some. So before folk go blaming one particular member of a board of directors for all our woes lets have some facts supported by real evidence, not just expressions of opinion that are asserted as fact. If those proper facts prove the case then I will accept it is all Richardsons fault but somehow I think people are being naiive in their financial assessment. You cannot write off the last 9 years or the many and various contributions of others.
Not one Board of Directors (maybe SISU & co do) and very few fans have embraced the fact that we live beyond the means of the club and its unsustainable!
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torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Yes you can trace problems back to richardson and his greed. Selling HR was the biggest cockup in CCFC history. We are still paying for his mismanagement and will continue to do so fir a long time to come.
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Oldskyblue: you can't say "lets have some facts supported by real evidence, not just expressions of opinion that are asserted as fact" when that is pretty much what you did throughout a long post.
* maybe we'd have sold and rented back Highfield Road (no data to support that argument)
* Yes i understand what that might mean for the quality of player we might get and our league prospects (no elaboration on the strong possibility of relegations, dwindling crowds, further downsizing etc)
* without the sale of HR we would have been in the nightmare financial meltdown long ago (no data to support that argument)
*I also doubt if you check , that the £60m debt was all attributable to Richardsons tenure, we have been losing money for decades (no accounting data; how much debt was accumulated under Richardson's tenure?)
*Had we not sold the ground we would have been bust 10 years ago (lack of data; who was primarily at fault for putting the club into that position if that was the case?)
Etc. They strike me as being the "[evidence-absent] expressions of opinion that are stated as fact" that you so dislike in the posts of others.
Where I do agree with you: the club has lived beyond its means, the 90s board as a whole has to take some responsibility for not keeping Richardson in check, and SISU are certainly not as villainous as some would make out.
If you really want to paint a fair picture, then publish the facts about where the club stood before Richardson became chairman, and where it stood after he left. Higher debts, lower turnover, fewer assets, owner-to-tenant, diminished status etc.
* maybe we'd have sold and rented back Highfield Road (no data to support that argument)
* Yes i understand what that might mean for the quality of player we might get and our league prospects (no elaboration on the strong possibility of relegations, dwindling crowds, further downsizing etc)
* without the sale of HR we would have been in the nightmare financial meltdown long ago (no data to support that argument)
*I also doubt if you check , that the £60m debt was all attributable to Richardsons tenure, we have been losing money for decades (no accounting data; how much debt was accumulated under Richardson's tenure?)
*Had we not sold the ground we would have been bust 10 years ago (lack of data; who was primarily at fault for putting the club into that position if that was the case?)
Etc. They strike me as being the "[evidence-absent] expressions of opinion that are stated as fact" that you so dislike in the posts of others.
Where I do agree with you: the club has lived beyond its means, the 90s board as a whole has to take some responsibility for not keeping Richardson in check, and SISU are certainly not as villainous as some would make out.
If you really want to paint a fair picture, then publish the facts about where the club stood before Richardson became chairman, and where it stood after he left. Higher debts, lower turnover, fewer assets, owner-to-tenant, diminished status etc.
Ernie Machin
New Member
Amen. Sugar was hated by Totts fans because he refused to buckle to demands to spend money they didn't have. I don't like him very much, but he's a sensible man. Had we had a Sugar instead of a Richardson, this club would have recovered by now.
I would echo what the Colonel said, Richardson is not the sole reason for our problems - but he played a massive part and to suggest he didn't is nonsense.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
First off it was my point that it wasnt just down to one man. Secondly if people are going to make the accusations then it should be supported by evidence which is sadly lacking by those who cry it was all Richardsons fault, it wasnt but there isnt any doubt he shoulders some blame (as do previous and subsequent boards of directors). As for for fairness I suggest you take a look at that yourself after reading the next paragraph
Just for info the facts are the current CCFC Limited was formed in 1995. In 1996 Turnover was £6.4m and losses of £15m due to transfer fees, net liabilities were £15m. By 2002 it had accumulated losses/debts of £13.9m. Turnover was up to £13.7m in 2002 and £20.4m in 2001(excluding player sales). It made a loss of £1.1m in 2002 and a profit of £0.7m in 2001 including Transfer dealings. So the majority of debts/accumulated losses by 2002 were made in 1996 (ie the other years of Richardson about broke even - some were in profit). The latest accounts to 2010 show accumulated losses/debts of £48.2m and turnover at £9.2m, losses of £3m and £7m the previous year (and thats without paying interest on the debt). Richardson was removed by the club 30th January 2002.
You do the maths as to when the majority of the losses/debts were accumulated and when most of the liabilities were incurred. Not a fan of Richardson but I think you should get the facts first - they are available at Company House. Hardly points to our present situation being all Richardsons fault now does it? I wont be doing further research just because you and others cant be bothered.
Just for info the facts are the current CCFC Limited was formed in 1995. In 1996 Turnover was £6.4m and losses of £15m due to transfer fees, net liabilities were £15m. By 2002 it had accumulated losses/debts of £13.9m. Turnover was up to £13.7m in 2002 and £20.4m in 2001(excluding player sales). It made a loss of £1.1m in 2002 and a profit of £0.7m in 2001 including Transfer dealings. So the majority of debts/accumulated losses by 2002 were made in 1996 (ie the other years of Richardson about broke even - some were in profit). The latest accounts to 2010 show accumulated losses/debts of £48.2m and turnover at £9.2m, losses of £3m and £7m the previous year (and thats without paying interest on the debt). Richardson was removed by the club 30th January 2002.
You do the maths as to when the majority of the losses/debts were accumulated and when most of the liabilities were incurred. Not a fan of Richardson but I think you should get the facts first - they are available at Company House. Hardly points to our present situation being all Richardsons fault now does it? I wont be doing further research just because you and others cant be bothered.
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Disorganised1
New Member
So perhaps you can tell us why Richardson spent millions decontaminating an area we don't own ~ or who Tesco paid to buy their site on the ground we decontaminated ?
There are awful lot of black holes in accounts. What wa in the non-disclosure agreement signed by both parties when BR sold out for £1 ?
There are awful lot of black holes in accounts. What wa in the non-disclosure agreement signed by both parties when BR sold out for £1 ?
im-confused
New Member
We stupidly give managers 3 year contracts and then have to still pay them off when we sack them after 1 or 2 years.
Lets all sing together
New Member
If you've ever been to a football match then you'll notice that there's a section of supporters who couldn't care less about your "research"
They are looking for quite simply - a hero and a zero - someones name to sing and someone to swear at, it's been a depressing week at work and there is not much the future holds, the club is the identity and the game (aswell as the day on the piss) is the one thing to look forward too.
If we have a car crash - we look for someone to blame.
The recession - everyone's got an opinion on who's to blame.
CCFC are in a mess - someones to blame, and no matter how much you campaign to defend him, Richardson will be held responsible by a section of the support.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I suggest you find out for yourself if you need to know and then tell us....
but it wont explain the £35m we have lost in the 9 years since he left and why successive Boards have not had the nuts to rectify the situation!. He may well be a vilain in this but 9 years on we are still living beyond our means and continue to do so in the vain hope someone will buy the club and ground.... and to do that they take over the debts as their own (they dont go away) which keep growing because we dont make a current profit, spending more than we own.......great business plan! .... but its Richardsons fault so thats ok?
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Understand that ......... but to be honest I have no campaign to defend him or any real interest in Richardson........ Just wanted to put a more balanced view out there....... I know full well it will fall on some deaf ears. Original premiss was that in reply to the OP's question it was all Richardsons fault ..... it isnt that simple but i am not exonerating him
cloughie
Well-Known Member
The thief who stole our biggest asset but no one is allowed to tell the truth as he sold all his shares for a quid to avoid a court case
Chubby Brown!
Ernie Machin
New Member
It's not all Richardson's fault, true. Strachan has to take his fair share of the blame too. Make no mistake, it was the relegation in 2001 that pretty much did ALL the damage - especially as the parachute payments jumped up a massive amount the season after. The club is still crippled by Richardson's folly, so I still (respectfully) disagree with you oldskyblue. Had SISU not been crippled themselves by the financial crisis, then we might have seen a light at the end of the tunnel.
cloughie
Well-Known Member
Having run businesses for many years accounts tell us not a true picture of any company. losses on accounts make less tax payable etc and usually means directors or owners taking out bigger saleries so the company does not make a profit . On the matter of facts BR was the 2nd highest paid chairman/ ceo in the country when in charge the year we went down. Top paid man was martin edwards man u, champions i think that year, does that speak volumes about BR
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Guys in a very real sense I dont give a damn who is to blame..... if it works for you to blame Richardson then blame him, but it is now 9 years later and I am far more interested in how CCFC becomes profitable than the blame game. None of us can change history and obviously view it differently.
BUT, our position gets worse by the day not because of history, and in financial terms 9 years is a lifetime, it gets worse because we pay out more than we bring in. Which ever way you look at it that is the one inescapeable truth. The club wont go forward until that truth becomes we receive more than we spend
BUT, our position gets worse by the day not because of history, and in financial terms 9 years is a lifetime, it gets worse because we pay out more than we bring in. Which ever way you look at it that is the one inescapeable truth. The club wont go forward until that truth becomes we receive more than we spend
Ernie Machin
New Member
And why is it that we can't earn anything like a promotion chasing Championship side should?
I'm not even a particular hater of Richardson, but it seems daft to deny his role in the whole thing.
I'm not even a particular hater of Richardson, but it seems daft to deny his role in the whole thing.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
think you will find i havent once denied it .... just carries a different importance for me, having looked at the financial reports
our income stream wasnt influenced by the recession or more importantly the dire god awful football we played then ?
our income stream wasnt influenced by the recession or more importantly the dire god awful football we played then ?
cloughie
Well-Known Member
Agreed!
pusb
Lets all sing together
New Member
- We don't have an investor who can plough money in for fun
- We don't generate enough to 'live within our means'
- We are not in the promised land (where we could sustain with the TV money)
We are losing money and in debt, and being run by an organisation that cares for itself and personal gain rather than having a vision and love for the city, that matches there career
We spend what little is left from our wages on supporting our loved ones and loved club - we need someone
We spend what little is left from our wages on supporting our loved ones and loved club - we need someone
- who loves the club and has cash - or can generate investment
- Out of the blue from abroad and fancies purchasing a club - Asian etc..
- Someone with a model and ideas and a buisness repertoire (Ray Ranson)
