Mean while back in court (21 Viewers)

[Specs WT-R75]

Specs how have SISU been exposed exactly?

Their emails are not on display at court?
I think the council are getting exposed as you say and evidence wise you only really get council documents disclosed, because as you say they are a public entity.

However we have not seen SISU's emails about this matter.

We have not seen the documents taken in SISU's strategy meetings about this matter.

We have not seen what SISU's media strategy was.

The council have been stripped bare.

SISU in terms of exposure unless you work for them I don't think you actually know anything in comparison to what has been exposed in relation to the council

The council have been stripped bare, and appear to have been acting with an agenda. We all know and accept what Sisu's agenda is - we don't need to see their emails to know that - they are pond life. As a government body the council are supposed to be above repute...

 

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[Hobo]

Did they get any outside / independent advice at all?

I wouldn't risk 14 mill of tax payers money if something was unclear.

That's if it IS actually wrong...

I don't know? But how many court cases? That suggests it is not straight forward. How soon did SISU object is it really that clear or unclear? In hindsight maybe.?

 

[italiahorse]

Did they get independent advice to double check?

Whether they thought it was right or wrong, if it is judged to be wrong it is wrong isn't it?

It was judged and it's currently right.

 

[Grendel]

Do you mean look for a house you would like that somebody has a mortgage on and try and negotiate with the mortgage lender at a much lower amount so you can take over ownership of the house without the legal home owners permission?

That's standard practice in the commercial sector. Loans are bought and sold all the time?

 

[italiahorse]

That's standard practice in the commercial sector. Loans are bought and sold all the time?

As is financing projects in the public sector for the greater good of the public.

 

[Astute]

That's standard practice in the commercial sector. Loans are bought and sold all the time?

So when was the last time a hedge fund managed to get a property off a council with underhand tactics? How many councils lose properties to anyone because of underhand tactics?

Yes none.

You can't take over properties like that. YB wouldn't even listen to their low offer. But in your eyes it is just a stick to beat CCC with. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it wasn't just one way traffic with you. But it is.

 

[Hobo]

As is financing projects in the public sector for the greater good of the public.

Exactly and as usual they are blinkered to one side of the situation.

 

[st john]

As is financing projects in the public sector for the greater good of the public.

The greater good!

 

[italiahorse]

The greater good!

Hospitals and schools ?
Who would finance them ?

 

[chiefdave]

Hospitals and schools ?
Who would finance them ?

How on earth is making a risky loan to a failing company financing hospitals and schools?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Hospitals and schools ?
Who would finance them ?

Unfortunately as it stands, such things are often financed by a profit driven private sector.

Unfortunately, that then opens up such things to cmmercial battles with predatory investment funds.

The sooner we stop expecting social benefits to offer a financial return, the better!

 

[chiefdave]

Legally.
Morally I don't think they have an issue

Legally.
Morally I don't think they have an issue

I think morally they could have had no doubt they were doing wrong, hence the PR and press gags.

Legally I would say is debatable. What the legal action to date has shown us is there is a fine line between what is legal and what isn't in areas such as this - think you can apply the same to the CCFC administration process. The fact that they were so close to that line would be reason for an independent body to be involved to 'approve' CCC's action.

At its most basic you have the council making a huge loan to a struggling company. The value of the loan was far greater than the assets of the company. In those circumstances you would expect a high interest rate to offset the risk but we are told the interest rate ACL were paying CCC was lower than the interest rate being paid to Yorkshire Bank.

The issue of if it distorts the commercial market for me hinges on if a commercial lender would loan the money on the same basis. I would say that was unlikely and if they would why did ACL not go down this route to avoid any potential issues.

I think SISU have a stronger case in JR2. Suspect they will argue that by doing a behind closed doors deal with Wasps they have failed to make any attempt to achieve best market value. That will be much harder for CCC to defend without going back on what they have said in JR1.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

Interesting though all this may be, whichever way the judgement goes, CCFC are not going to reap the benefit of a single £ as a result, are they?

What are the benefits/ downsides of SISU winning/losing for CCFC. That's my only real interest.

FWIW, I know one representative of the Council team involved in the thick of this, and he would never knowingly do anything dodgy (not saying that others wouldn't)

 

[Grendel]

So when was the last time a hedge fund managed to get a property off a council with underhand tactics?

If the councils valuation to CCFC was deemed fair the answer is clearly Moonstone Ltd or whichever parasite firm of the Maltese hedge fund purchased the Arena.

 

[Grendel]

Hospitals and schools ?
Who would finance them ?

Central government you clown

 

[Grendel]

As is financing projects in the public sector for the greater good of the public.

How is selling a community asset for one tenth of its apparent valuation for the greater good?

 

[Hobo]

How is selling a community asset for one tenth of its apparent valuation for the greater good?

Perhaps they used your valuation? You repeatedly said on here it was worthless. You said no one else was interested.

Through all these court cases you bend with the wind.

 

[Grendel]

Perhaps they used your valuation? You repeatedly said on here it was worthless. You said no one else was interested.

Through all these court cases you bend with the wind.

But they repeatedly said that the Arena was a profitable venture without the football club and that it represented a very small proportion of the total revenue coming in.

Are you accusing them of lying?

 

[Astute]

Perhaps they used your valuation? You repeatedly said on here it was worthless. You said no one else was interested.

Through all these court cases you bend with the wind.

You beat me to it. It makes me laugh when those that say that they tried to charge too much money to SISU let Wasps have it for a fraction of its true value.

 

[Grendel]

You beat me to it. It makes me laugh when those that say that they tried to charge too much money to SISU let Wasps have it for a fraction of its true value.

It makes me laugh when sisu offered a value for 50% that was right up there with the Malta hedge fund offer but they were accused of ripping off a children's charity - an accusation I have not heard regarding Moonstone Ltd.

 

[Hobo]

But they repeatedly said that the Arena was a profitable venture without the football club and that it represented a very small proportion of the total revenue coming in.

Are you accusing them of lying?

Depends how you interpret profitable without the football club?

I think it was wasn't it? But it is also always going to be more profitable with an anchor tenant and especially a tenant who isn't trying to distress it.

I am not convinced anybody is telling lies yet despite the amount of smoke on both sides.

 

[Grendel]

Depends how you interpret profitable without the football club?

I think it was wasn't it? But it is also always going to be more profitable with an anchor tenant and especially a tenant who isn't trying to distress it.

I am not convinced anybody is telling lies yet despite the amount of smoke on both sides.

At the JR review didn't the lawyer state we were a fraction of the turnover - less than 20% and Lucas proclaim the company was in profit?

If we were the only reason they they remained in existence at all then asking the club to pay 130% of the price offered to a Maltese hedge fund really isn't cricket is it?

 

[Astute]

It makes me laugh when sisu offered a value for 50% that was right up there with the Malta hedge fund offer but they were accused of ripping off a children's charity - an accusation I have not heard regarding Moonstone Ltd.

So did they try to overcharge SISU or did Wasps get it for 10% of its value?

 

[Hobo]

At the JR review didn't the lawyer state we were a fraction of the turnover - less than 20% and Lucas proclaim the company was in profit?

If we were the only reason they they remained in existence at all then asking the club to pay 130% of the price offered to a Maltese hedge fund really isn't cricket is it?

So you are now arguing the football club is insignificant to the profitability of the Rico.

Figures banded about and firm bids are two different things. What was a good price last month compared to last week are two different things. You only need to look at the stock market to realise that.

I would rather see how it all unravels as we are a long way from the end.

 

[skybluetony176]

It makes me laugh when sisu offered a value for 50% that was right up there with the Malta hedge fund offer but they were accused of ripping off a children's charity - an accusation I have not heard regarding Moonstone Ltd.

They didn't value it at that though. What was it Laura Deering stood up in court and said. Something along the lines of it was worthless but Joy Seppala recognised Higgs was a charity. Obviously SISU used your valuation too.

 

[Grendel]

So you are now arguing the football club is insignificant to the profitability of the Rico.

Figures banded about and firm bids are two different things. What was a good price last month compared to last week are two different things. You only need to look at the stock market to realise that.

I would rather see how it all unravels as we are a long way from the end.

Clearly not. The argument deployed by the council and the absurd PWKH was that the club represented a fraction of the turnover - 17% from memory.

We had several interviews by Lucas in the local media since the clubs departure saying that the future of the Ricoh was safe - it was in profit.

Lucas was being disingenuous at best. The turnover statement was correct but of course failed to acknowledge the fact that all the revenue from the bloated rent arrangement was 100% return so was the profit.

Sisu I would guess would have looked how local councils behave when community sport clubs are in crises. They would have seen support from the councils of Swansea, Nottingham, Ipswich and Hull all of whom ultimately bent over backwards to support the football club. What they failed to acknowledge was that they had a unique council who had no value at all regarding the football clubs importance to the community. It had no more moral spine than a hedge fund.

The truth if course is they knew the Ricoh was a basket case and worthless without a primary tenant. Rather than do the decent thing and hand it to the local community team it decided petty battles and one upmanship meant more.

So Hell froze over.

The council deemed it more suitable to award it's failing crumbling loss making white elephant to a hedge fund from Malta and make coventry the city of franchise sport.

Sisu assumed that a local council would value a community.

They misjudged the odious Lucas and the publicity seeking buffoon with the double barrelled name. Those two should teach Seppella a thing or two. They proved far more ruthless uncaring and cold hearted.

 

[Grendel]

They didn't value it at that though. What was it Laura Deering stood up in court and said. Something along the lines of it was worthless but Joy Seppala recognised Higgs was a charity. Obviously SISU used your valuation too.

The Higgs share alone was worthless that's why no one wanted it in isolation.

 

[cloughie]

Clearly not. The argument deployed by the council and the absurd PWKH was that the club represented a fraction of the turnover - 17% from memory.

We had several interviews by Lucas in the local media since the clubs departure saying that the future of the Ricoh was safe - it was in profit.

Lucas was being disingenuous at best. The turnover statement was correct but of course failed to acknowledge the fact that all the revenue from the bloated rent arrangement was 100% return so was the profit.

Sisu I would guess would have looked how local councils behave when community sport clubs are in crises. They would have seen support from the councils of Swansea, Nottingham, Ipswich and Hull all of whom ultimately bent over backwards to support the football club. What they failed to acknowledge was that they had a unique council who had no value at all regarding the football clubs importance to the community. It had no more moral spine than a hedge fund.

The truth if course is they knew the Ricoh was a basket case and worthless without a primary tenant. Rather than do the decent thing and hand it to the local community team it decided petty battles and one upmanship meant more.

So Hell froze over.

The council deemed it more suitable to award it's failing crumbling loss making white elephant to a hedge fund from Malta and make coventry the city of franchise sport.

Sisu assumed that a local council would value a community.

They misjudged the odious Lucas and the publicity seeking buffoon with the double barrelled name. Those two should teach Seppella a thing or two. They proved far more ruthless uncaring and cold hearted.

The biggest publicity seeking buffoon was your beloved Timmy 'we don't bluff and bluster' Fisher

 

[usskyblue]

Clearly not. The argument deployed by the council and the absurd PWKH was that the club represented a fraction of the turnover - 17% from memory.

We had several interviews by Lucas in the local media since the clubs departure saying that the future of the Ricoh was safe - it was in profit.

Lucas was being disingenuous at best. The turnover statement was correct but of course failed to acknowledge the fact that all the revenue from the bloated rent arrangement was 100% return so was the profit.

Sisu I would guess would have looked how local councils behave when community sport clubs are in crises. They would have seen support from the councils of Swansea, Nottingham, Ipswich and Hull all of whom ultimately bent over backwards to support the football club. What they failed to acknowledge was that they had a unique council who had no value at all regarding the football clubs importance to the community. It had no more moral spine than a hedge fund.

The truth if course is they knew the Ricoh was a basket case and worthless without a primary tenant. Rather than do the decent thing and hand it to the local community team it decided petty battles and one upmanship meant more.

So Hell froze over.

The council deemed it more suitable to award it's failing crumbling loss making white elephant to a hedge fund from Malta and make coventry the city of franchise sport.

Sisu assumed that a local council would value a community.

They misjudged the odious Lucas and the publicity seeking buffoon with the double barrelled name. Those two should teach Seppella a thing or two. They proved far more ruthless uncaring and cold hearted.

Well put.

However, it's clear that those who solely blame SISU have an issue with seeing anything beyond....even given the facts.

 

[Grendel]

The biggest publicity seeking buffoon was your beloved Timmy 'we don't bluff and bluster' Fisher

He's not got a double barrelled name and he's not my beloved.

A typically absurd response and is why the odious Lucas remains unchallenged.

Get a backbone and grow up.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The biggest publicity seeking buffoon was your beloved Timmy 'we don't bluff and bluster' Fisher

Drivel. All his publicity was of the negative variety, hardly courting the public. Not like the Weber Shandwick influenced publicity of Messrs Lucas and PWKH.
Why doesn't PWKH post on here anymore and why did he in the first place? It's clear as day.

 

[Hobo]

Clearly not. The argument deployed by the council and the absurd PWKH was that the club represented a fraction of the turnover - 17% from memory.

We had several interviews by Lucas in the local media since the clubs departure saying that the future of the Ricoh was safe - it was in profit.

Lucas was being disingenuous at best. The turnover statement was correct but of course failed to acknowledge the fact that all the revenue from the bloated rent arrangement was 100% return so was the profit.

Sisu I would guess would have looked how local councils behave when community sport clubs are in crises. They would have seen support from the councils of Swansea, Nottingham, Ipswich and Hull all of whom ultimately bent over backwards to support the football club. What they failed to acknowledge was that they had a unique council who had no value at all regarding the football clubs importance to the community. It had no more moral spine than a hedge fund.

The truth if course is they knew the Ricoh was a basket case and worthless without a primary tenant. Rather than do the decent thing and hand it to the local community team it decided petty battles and one upmanship meant more.

So Hell froze over.

The council deemed it more suitable to award it's failing crumbling loss making white elephant to a hedge fund from Malta and make coventry the city of franchise sport.

Sisu assumed that a local council would value a community.

They misjudged the odious Lucas and the publicity seeking buffoon with the double barrelled name. Those two should teach Seppella a thing or two. They proved far more ruthless uncaring and cold hearted.

As we have seen this can be argued on both sides. I think they have both played out their role to get us to this point. Other councils weren't dealing with SISU.

 

[skybluetony176]

The Higgs share alone was worthless that's why no one wanted it in isolation.

I doubt that the wasps takeover of ACL would have happened had we purchased the Higgs share if for no other reason than they wouldn't have wanted to get into bed with SISU. By the same token it would have put the council in bed with SISU and a situation that they would have been keen to get out of facilitating a complete takeover of ACL. From that prospective the Higgs shares were priceless.

As usual you've failed to grasp the full picture. The Higgs share was far from worthless, in the big scheme of things it was anything but. Your problem is you don't seem to understand value unless it's a figure on a balance sheet. Funnily enough also SISU's problem.

 

[Grendel]

I doubt that the wasps takeover of ACL would have happened had we purchased the Higgs share if for no other reason than they wouldn't have wanted to get into bed with SISU. By the same token it would have put the council in bed with SISU and a situation that they would have been keen to get out of facilitating a complete takeover of ACL.

As usual you've failed to grasp the full picture. The Higgs share was far from worthless, in the big scheme of things it was anything but. Your problem is you don't seem to understand value unless it's a figure on a balance sheet. Funnily enough also SISU's problem.

As usual you are so stupid you fail to a knowledge the meaning of two things;

"Hell will freeze over"

"Veto"

 

[Astute]

So did they try to overcharge SISU or did Wasps get it for 10% of its value?

Still waiting for your reply to this Grendel.....