What do you think is the end game ? (33 Viewers)

[Bruce the Boot]

A lot of people have said over the years what are Sisu trying to achieve ? Nobody definitely knows. My opinion , is they are happy to keep taking board room level salaries out of the club , and use the club books for other reasons beyond a normal person to understand other than an accountant. I think the end is near , soon no academy ? and very soon nowhere for home fixtures . To me it looks like administration and Sisu walk away .

 

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[SamParker]

At the minute I don't think SISU can walk away unless they have stripped us into numerous pieces and we can, like you say, enter administration.

They cannot recoup any money for the club as a salable asset so we are effectively stuck

Either way, it doesn't end well for us.

 

[the rumpo kid]

away at scunthorpe

 

[mrtrench]

So long as we are not losing them further money I think they will be happy to carry on as is, with the outside chance of promotion and starting to recoup their losses.

 

[Deleted member 2477]

Bruce i agree with your analyses and have been saying the same on here to be poo pooed by the pro brigade.
They are stripping anything they can from the club incl any player or youth player they can get money for and replacing them with loans which means less outgoings on wages as the parent club pay all or a percentage.
This then means the club can continue to exist with a small squad made up of a larger percentage of loans.

Weve seen it more this season than any other and reading all the waffle on here re the academy the smaller print indicates sisu have no intention of retaining it again less cost.

My opinion is when we lose the ricoh in 2-3 years and sisu have finished their court room antics they will walk away but not before squeezing every last penny out of the club they can.

Their not football fans/owners but a rutheless hedge fund with shareholders wanting a payout and we will pay the ultimate price so they can do that

 

[rupert_bear]

We appear stuck with them at the minute. They are only spending what they bring in, nothing wrong with that but any money brought in through transfers goes into their pocket or business. Just Callum Wilson and James Maddison alone have realised around £10 million. Just 10 % of that would almost assure promotion or a top 6 spot, but then that gives another problem, promotion would bugger up
sisu's budget game plan players in the championship are now on large salaries a lot more than we pay or are prepared to to pay. A sad and worrying state of affairs. The end game ? not sure with sisu not putting any money in why should they sell ! I don't fully understand how hedge funds work but from the outside looking in what better than a business that doesn't cost money but now and again through the transfer system realises a few million seems a good thing for them doesn't it.

 

[Nick]

Bruce i agree with your analyses and have been saying the same on here to be poo pooed by the pro brigade.
They are stripping anything they can from the club incl any player or youth player they can get money for and replacing them with loans which means less outgoings on wages as the parent club pay all or a percentage.
This then means the club can continue to exist with a small squad made up of a larger percentage of loans.

Weve seen it more this season than any other and reading all the waffle on here re the academy the smaller print indicates sisu have no intention of retaining it again less cost.

My opinion is when we lose the ricoh in 2-3 years and sisu have finished their court room antics they will walk away but not before squeezing every last penny out of the club they can.

Their not football fans/owners but a rutheless hedge fund with shareholders wanting a payout and we will pay the ultimate price so they can do that

What money is being squeezed out of the club though?

 

[Nick]

We appear stuck with them at the minute. They are only spending what they bring in, nothing wrong with that but any money brought in through transfers goes into their pocket or business. Just Callum Wilson and James Maddison alone have realised around £10 million. Just 10 % of that would almost assure promotion or a top 6 spot, but then that gives another problem, promotion would bugger up
sisu's budget game plan players in the championship are now on large salaries a lot more than we pay or are prepared to to pay. A sad and worrying state of affairs. The end game ? not sure with sisu not putting any money in why should they sell ! I don't fully understand how hedge funds work but from the outside looking in what better than a business that doesn't cost money but now and again through the transfer system realises a few million seems a good thing for them doesn't it.

What money is going into their pocket or business though? 10 million?

 

[mrtrench]

What money is being squeezed out of the club though?

I guess they must be taking some of the sale money - #JM10 for example. I get that - they are now pulling money out rather than investing, but then they are many millions in the hole with the club. I just don't see them walking away from something costing them nowt (now) with the option of an occasional windfall and a slight chance of promotion.

 

[Nick]

I guess they must be taking some of the sale money - #JM10 for example. I get that - they are now pulling money out rather than investing, but then they are many millions in the hole with the club. I just don't see them walking away from something costing them nowt (now) with the option of an occasional windfall and a slight chance of promotion.

I think the Maddison stuff will show up in the accounts this year won't it?

MV has said it is all staying within the club.

Is this the old they haven't spent it on new players and signings so it must be in their pocket?

 

[mrtrench]

I think the Maddison stuff will show up in the accounts this year won't it?

MV has said it is all staying within the club.

Is this the old they haven't spent it on new players and signings so it must be in their pocket?

Then we'll see. Cannot see any evidence of it being spent by the club just yet. And if we are breaking even as claimed (is that true?) it's not going in running costs.

 

[Nick]

Then we'll see. Cannot see any evidence of it being spent by the club just yet. And if we are breaking even as claimed (is that true?) it's not going in running costs.

Surely the James Maddison stuff is helping break even? There was still a 1.9m loss last year.

Everybody assumes that selling a player means the money can only go on new players, rather than filling gaps. If it doesn't go on new players it is pocketed, no mention of the losses made.

I don't know about Maddison as the accounts haven't come out yet, MV seems to think the money stayed within the club.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Then we'll see. Cannot see any evidence of it being spent by the club just yet. And if we are breaking even as claimed (is that true?) it's not going in running costs.

They did claim they'd got their budgets badly wrong last season, though, and what should have been a break even gate... wasn't.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Anyway... end game.

Original plan was obvious. Invest in players, win promotion, sell on club. 300% gain was mooted and, although a CCFC director confirmed the plan, they also claimed this was an over-optimistic guess. Plan the same, however.

When that didn't work and the money was spent they went into what they do elsewhere. This is the Private Equity arm, after all... so that means cut costs, pull back, make a business run as a business. Hence the interest in the Ricoh rent... Maybe pick up an asset or two below value if possible too, that'd help.

Now... it's a time to see if opportunities arise going forward for the same principle. What I would be very, very scared about is what happens if they don't, and what happens if Wasps succeed in embedding properly here? A ruthless investment fund has no emotional connection (as we've seen) and oblivion could well be preferable to administration for all manner of reasons...

 

[Bruce the Boot]

So long as we are not losing them further money I think they will be happy to carry on as is, with the outside chance of promotion and starting to recoup their losses.

Thing is .... They will never re coop their loses at this rate ( even if they truly have loses ) promotion looks along way off , eventually somebody will call a debt in ?

 

[Captain Dart]

They did claim they'd got their budgets badly wrong last season, though, and what should have been a break even gate... wasn't.

Losses in last 2 accounts, £4.4M in Sixfields season, £1.9M last season, the next accounts are 7 months away.

The latest accounts – for the year up to May last year – reveal operating losses of £1.9million, down from an adjusted figure of £4.4million in 2013/14, when the club played ‘home’ games for almost the entire season at Sixfields stadium in Northampton.
http://coventryobserver.co.uk/news/coventry-city-football-club-new-accounts-show-1-9m-loss-ricoh/

Directors take a significant salary.

2012
- Directors were paid £120k - who to it doesnt say but you might assume most to SW ?
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/commentary-otium-entertainment-group-accounts.54665/

2013
- remuneration paid to third parties for directors services 246,250 (total paid direct and indirect last year was 497,739)
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/sky-blue-sports-leisure-2013-accounts.42971/

Noises made would indicate Maddison money was used to plug a hole in finances because of financial miscalculation last season.

Away from the stadium situation, Ms Seppala ruled out any merger with Wasps and clarified why the club had opted to sell James Maddison when it did - pointing to concerns the player could get injured.

She also said previous estimates of needing an 11,000 average crowd to break-even had been revised - and the club actually needed attendances nearer 14,000.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/sisu-boss-joy-seppala-says-10992215

And, no I've no idea what the SISU exit strategy is, surely they don't want this albatross hanging round their neck?

 

[Nick]

Which CCFC directors are appointed by the Council or Charity?

Although, I doubt they are working for peanuts.

Edit:

Found this from 2015.

Directors were paid £120k - who to it doesnt say but you might assume most to SW ?

All directors paid less than the highest paid ACL director

 

[Captain Dart]

Which CCFC directors are appointed by the Council or Charity?

Although, I doubt they are working for peanuts.

Edit:

Found this from 2015.



All directors paid less than the highest paid ACL director

LOL, in my rush I picked up ACL account reports, I've fixed it to CCFC data.. yes Directors everywhere take a huge wedge.

 

[Nick]

Isn't the top one 2014? So directors fees halved?

Still interesting that an ACL director was being paid more than all of them put together

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And, no I've no idea what the SISU exit strategy is, surely they don't want this albatross hanging round their neck?

Clock was re-set though, wasn't it.

Effectively the original strategy failed, so now we're onto a new attempt.

And it's all about the high risk, high return isn't it... although in this case the risk (from the SISU POV) is relatively low.

We're at turd polishing stage!

 

[Kingokings204]

Not really sure what the end game is and I don't even think sisu know.

I would of thought they are quite happy where ccfc are winning a fair few games and competing whilst selling a youth player every other season for 3m.

So to answer I think there is no end game as such more just ticking along fairly happy for the time being.

 

[Brylowes]

A lot of people have said over the years what are Sisu trying to achieve ? Nobody definitely knows. My opinion , is they are happy to keep taking board room level salaries out of the club , and use the club books for other reasons beyond a normal person to understand other than an accountant. I THINK THE END IS NEAR, soon no academy ? and very soon nowhere for home fixtures . To me it looks like administration and Sisu walk away .

The end should always be NIGH never near.
Just saying.

 

[Captain Dart]

Isn't the top one 2014? So directors fees halved?

Still interesting that an ACL director was being paid more than all of them put together

No, you haven't understood, what I found was one year Otium & one year SBS&L, so it looks like SW was on ~100K & TF on ~200K, SW was Otium director, TF SBS&L director. Both companies pay their directors, right now TF/LD and CA are all paid, the main outgoings to TF & CA I imagine.

If you had the nous to research this yourself you could come up with a realistic appreciation, but I think you'd rather point fingers at every last detail that supports your agenda.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Nick, IIRC, you set up the "Politics/Ricoh/SISU" forum for this type of discussion. Please can you move it so that those of us who want to talk about football matters don't have to encounter it?

 

[Captain Dart]

Not really sure what the end game is and I don't even think sisu know.

I would of thought they are quite happy where ccfc are winning a fair few games and competing whilst selling a youth player every other season for 3m.

So to answer I think there is no end game as such more just ticking along fairly happy for the time being.

I don't think business people think like that.

 

[gears87]

I think wasps (with the help of certain councillors) want to distress Sisu so to obtain them for next too nothing.
I.e no ground , no acadamy=lack of future revenue
And the posibility that if the team are not successful this season (better than last) fewer fans to buy match day tickets/season tickets.
Remember that a lot of councillors had their noses bloodied by sisu...vandetta = possibly.

Just putting a thought out there!!!

 

[Nick]

No, you haven't understood, what I found was one year Otium & one year SBS&L, so it looks like SW was on ~100K & TF on ~200K, SW was Otium director, TF SBS&L director. Both companies pay their directors, right now TF/LD and CA are all paid, the main outgoings to TF & CA I imagine.

If you had the nous to research this yourself you could come up with a realistic appreciation, but I think you'd rather point fingers at every last detail that supports your agenda.

Ah OK, I just thought it was strange that OSB was going through 2012 accounts in 2015... He usually does them as they come out. The posts were a year apart so I assumed they were for different years... I was confused why you were saying it was 2012 though, but I won't argue with the master researcher (even though I had already found that thread and posted it while you were posting ACL's )

Venus will also need to be paid I guess so they will be up in the next one.

Still, wouldn't be a day without you trying to have a stupid dig. Have a day off.

Still no reply to my PM though or mention of it? Funny that!

 

[Brylowes]

Nick, IIRC, you set up the "Politics/Ricoh/SISU" forum for this type of discussion. Please can you move it so that those of us who want to talk about football matters don't have to encounter it?

Or you could just nut select this thread.

 

[chiefdave]

A lot of people have said over the years what are Sisu trying to achieve ? Nobody definitely knows. My opinion , is they are happy to keep taking board room level salaries out of the club , and use the club books for other reasons beyond a normal person to understand other than an accountant. I think the end is near , soon no academy ? and very soon nowhere for home fixtures . To me it looks like administration and Sisu walk away .

Their original plan was clear. Now they are just trying to run at cost neutral hoping at some point they get a return.

Are board salaries actually going to SISU or to paid employees of the club such as Anderson and Fisher?

 

[chiefdave]

Cannot see any evidence of it being spent by the club just yet.

Its covered in the last set of accounts. SISU put a short term loan in as the club was running at a loss. Some of that has been repaid by the money received upfront. The rest has been left in as a rolling credit facility.

The rest of the Maddison money will offset other losses.

 

[covcity4life]

end game is just light at end of tunnel for fans. right now i dont see one

 

[oldskyblue58]

Directors remunerations
SBS&L Group (only trading element is CCFC)
2011 – 233,350
2012 – 497,739
2013 – 246,250
2014 – 240,000
2015 – 314,000

ACL Group
2011 – 263,243
2012 – 256,907
2013 – 170,673
2014 – 22,500 (wasps holdings group in total (inc ACL) 140,489)
2015 – 11,830 (wasps holdings group in total (inc ACL) 438,211)

Neither the Council nor charity directors took a salary from ACL.

Personally I don't see why any director be it CCFC or ACL shouldn't be paid for the work they do, if they require payment, so long as it is commensurate with what they do

 

[Nick]

What would explain 2012 being so high, then 2015 going back up?

I guess it will go back up again won't it with Venus on there?

 

[oucho]

SISU's strategy now appears to be hold tight, try to break even, see what happens on the pitch (promotion would be a bonus) and hope that Wasps get into sufficient financial difficulties to enable SISU to use those difficulties as leverage in crowbarring at least a share of the Ricoh from Wasps. From their actions there is no evidence of any other strategy.

 

[italiahorse]

SISU's strategy now appears to be hold tight, try to break even, see what happens on the pitch (promotion would be a bonus) and hope that Wasps get into sufficient financial difficulties to enable SISU to use those difficulties as leverage in crowbarring at least a share of the Ricoh from Wasps. From their actions there is no evidence of any other strategy.

Win the JR (eventually) and leave with all the money.