RIP Labour (10 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Only my opinion from social media and listening to Labour politicians; I have no quantifiable proof. I've become so sick of the negativity from left-leaning friends on FB that I quit it for 6 weeks. I've just gone back and unfollowed them (a nice compromise for me - no unfriending but not having the negatives on my screen. I'm also fed up with the Labour mantra "we need to fight the Tories" - I hear this from them all the time. What is the point in existing just to oppose what someone else thinks? I'd have far more time from them if they said what they will do in a positive way rather than just being against everything the Tories do.




Completely agree - it should be about critical thinking and giving people the broad skills in their subject to be able to implement when in work. Many of these new courses are just teaching practical skills (again from experience of family and friends - not the papers) - and they are going down to the 50th percentile of natural intelligence. My point is that it is wrong to saddle young people with debt for practical skills and for those that are never going to set the world alight with their natural ability.

IMO the greatest innovation for giving the masses opportunity was grammar schools. These opened up the best jobs to anyone with the ability to do them. I'm pleased to read that they may come back on the agenda. The unfortunate consequences were that secondary moderns became sink institutions. We should reintroduce but make the new secondary moderns excellent in their own way - or plough much more money into comprehensives. My opinion on this is that teachers are underpaid massively and so it's no longer an option for the most talented. But I confess a prejudice in this - I started as a teacher and left for commerce due to money - so I would think that.

My dad came from a very poor background and was the first in his family to go uni due to a grammar school. I went to comprehensives and on reflection the overall quality of teaching was very poor. There should be a lot more morey put into education and teacher's salaries should be majorly increased as they provide one of the most essential services in society. I have done a bit of teaching myself and my dad taught for 30+ years, yet I wouldn't return to the profession. However, the idea of teaching in an international school abroad is a lot more appealing.

 

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[mrtrench]

My dad came from a very poor background and was the first in his family to go uni due to a grammar school. I went to comprehensives and on reflection the overall quality of teaching was very poor. There should be a lot more morey put into education and teacher's salaries should be majorly increased as they provide one of the most essential services in society. I have done a bit of teaching myself and my dad taught for 30+ years, yet I wouldn't return to the profession. However, the idea of teaching in an international school abroad is a lot more appealing.

Me too - first in the family to go to grammar school and first to university. I read recently than now fewer than 50% of maths teachers in secondary school have any relevant post-A level qualification in maths. And is it any wonder when they are paid less than half of what they would be in commerce?

 

[Ian1779]

Me too - first in the family to go to grammar school and first to university. I read recently than now fewer than 50% of maths teachers in secondary school have any relevant post-A level qualification in maths. And is it any wonder when they are paid less than half of what they would be in commerce?

As a head of maths I can tell you how hard it is to recruit any maths teachers that actually have Maths as part of their degree. We are lucky we have a decent team of maths specialists, but recruiting to replace often takes 6 adverts before you even get applicants.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Me too - first in the family to go to grammar school and first to university.

Grammar school central around here, eh.

 

[chiefdave]

As a head of maths I can tell you how hard it is to recruit any maths teachers that actually have Maths as part of their degree.

Is that a problem specific to maths or a more general problem? I'd never even considered you'd have people teaching subjects they weren't qualified in.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Is that a problem specific to maths or a more general problem? I'd never even considered you'd have people teaching subjects they weren't qualified in.

You'd assume given arts and humanities tend to get you lower paid jobs, that it'd be the ones where you can earn more doing something other than teaching which are the issue.

Plus (and it's a generalisation!) those I've met who work in arts and humanities sectors aren't motivated by their take-home cash as much.

 

[Ian1779]

Is that a problem specific to maths or a more general problem? I'd never even considered you'd have people teaching subjects they weren't qualified in.

It seems to be an issue with maths and science specifically. Last year we put out a PE job and Maths job at same time - PE got 75 applications, Maths got 1. Even teach first try and send people in to do Maths where it isn't their degree specialism. They think educated to A Level will suffice, but it doesn't cut it.

We are quite lucky - their are tons of schools in a far worse position.

 

[mrtrench]

I was a maths teacher - taught for 4 years before leaving to become a graduate trainee programmer and I took a pay rise - even though I had an incentive A allowance by then too. We wanted children and we simply couldn't afford it on my pay. 15 years ago I was made redundant and didn't work for 6 months. To fill in the time (and because I like teaching) I did a supply day at a local school. The next day the headmaster phoned me and offered me a full-time job. That's how desperate it is and has been for a long time. I always considered that I may return to teaching around now (I'm in my 50s) as part of a wind down towards retirement. I don't intend that to sound patronising or arrogant - you have to put in context that until recently I commuted 4 hours per day and worked 10 hours minimum in the office and then connected into work again when I returned home. However now I've reached that time I look at all the bureaucracy in teaching and I've discovered that I can still earn more working two days per week locally. It's crazy. You cannot pay more depending on what subject people teach and so if we are serious about education we need to at least double salaries.

 

[mrtrench]

try and send people in to do Maths where it isn't their degree specialism. They think educated to A Level will suffice, but it doesn't cut it.

I completely agree. I used to like going off piste off teaching with the bright kids and give them more context than the syllabus demands. They loved it and it fitted in perfectly with my philosophy that if you tell people WHY something works they will remember it. Someone with an A level is only ever going to be able to tell people WHAT to do.

 

[Nick]

I completely agree. I used to like going off piste off teaching with the bright kids and give them more context than the syllabus demands. They loved it and it fitted in perfectly with my philosophy that if you tell people WHY something works they will remember it. Someone with an A level is only ever going to be able to tell people WHAT to do.

Doesn't work like that at all now. It is just about figures and targets for the schools.

So much so, last year my daughter effectively became a teaching assistant in her own class to help other kids rather than being pushed herself. She was a bang on pass even if she didn't go to school for the year, so they were happy with that.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

As a head of maths I can tell you how hard it is to recruit any maths teachers that actually have Maths as part of their degree. We are lucky we have a decent team of maths specialists, but recruiting to replace often takes 6 adverts before you even get applicants.

What do you think the reaction would be within the teaching profession if salaries were weighted in favour of those who taught the "tougher" subjects such as Maths, Physics, Chemistry over the "softer" subjects such as art & history etc.?

I am assuming this doesn't currently happen and all teachers salaries are comparable, regardless of subject......but surely no-one could argue with a maths teacher earning 20% more than a drama teacher for example.....

...although I guess the unions would kick off?

 

[mrtrench]

Back on topic, this looks compelling and accurate to me:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/shouldnt-vote-jeremy-corbyn/

 

[Ian1779]

What do you think the reaction would be within the teaching profession if salaries were weighted in favour of those who taught the "tougher" subjects such as Maths, Physics, Chemistry over the "softer" subjects such as art & history etc.?

I am assuming this doesn't currently happen and all teachers salaries are comparable, regardless of subject......but surely no-one could argue with a maths teacher earning 20% more than a drama teacher for example.....

...although I guess the unions would kick off?

Salaries appear to be quite the hush subject in some schools. I think that if a school want a Maths/Sci teacher that badly they will pretty much pay what they're asking for irrespective of other staff salaries... However this can cause friction as sometimes a 'new' maths teacher might have negotiated a better salary than existing staff have got, so it can snowball along.

I think that in 'softer' subjects there are more available applicants which kind of keeps salaries a bit lower.

Maybe not higher salaries but top ups/bursaries or something of that ilk may be the way to go.

 

[mrtrench]

It always used to be a set scale based off time served, with allowances for more responsibility. Has that changed?

 

[oakey]

What do you think the reaction would be within the teaching profession if salaries were weighted in favour of those who taught the "tougher" subjects such as Maths, Physics, Chemistry over the "softer" subjects such as art & history etc.?

I am assuming this doesn't currently happen and all teachers salaries are comparable, regardless of subject......but surely no-one could argue with a maths teacher earning 20% more than a drama teacher for example.....

...although I guess the unions would kick off?

The reaction would be the same as in any situation in which people were doing effectively the same job.

 

[Ian1779]

It always used to be a set scale based off time served, with allowances for more responsibility. Has that changed?

It is used still, but more often than not you get all sorts of top ups, TLR payments, recruitment & retention bonus, and as academy chains get bigger they are moving staff over to their own pay scales. It's mostly used now for teachers on their first 2/3 years by which point they are moved to a different scale or another.

 

[oakey]

Also, because the content is perceived as harder, the teaching of it is dependent on so many other factors. In my school maths and science teachers have much smaller classes, much more support from TAs, bigger budgets, more lessons to deliver in, groups that have been set so they can pitch lessons to a narrow ability range. Other so called softer subjects, you mentioned History, have bigger classes, no TAs, smaller budget, fewer lessons per week, mixed ability and pupils taken from their lessons frequently for extra maths etc. Their target grades will be the same as maths and science. So to pay them less would probably be not only contentious but grossly unfair.

 

[Ian1779]

Well that is certainly not the case in my school. In fact it is almost the reverse with the exception of classes split into ability. And quite often option subjects with large numbers are streamed by ability....

There are no TA's now in most schools, the Tory budget freeze (which in essence is a real terms budget cut) has put paid to that.

 

[mrtrench]

How big are class sizes now Ian? When I left I had 34 in my top sets, roughly 30 in the middle sets and 20 - 25 in the bottom set.

 

[Sick Boy]

Out Maths teacher was a former PE teacher and was absolutely useless and I can safely say that I learnt nothing. He spent most lessons reading the paper.

 

[Ian1779]

How big are class sizes now Ian? When I left I had 34 in my top sets, roughly 30 in the middle sets and 20 - 25 in the bottom set.

I set ours to a max of 30 in our dept. If we get new kids (which happens frequently) I move about to balance it out. Try and have small numbers in bottom sets but hard to do sometimes, especially in Year 7 & 8

 

[skybluetom]

I really don't understand how the Labour party has managed to get itself into such a mess. Smith is a joke; every man and his dog can see the whole 'I'm more left wing than Jeremy' routine is a con to try and win over the party members who elected Corbyn. It's hard to take seriously anything the bloke says. Corbyn for such an experienced politician is a fool. He moans about disloyalty, this coming from the bloke who voted against his whip over 500 times. He claims to all about this new politics, substance over spin. Fact over fiction. Straight talking bla bla bla then pulls a stupid pc stunt on a train. The following day he announces plans to 'renationalise' the NHS. Could I possibly buy shares in the NHS in it's been privatized? I think not. If however he's against certain services being outsourced, fine. But say that.

The problem with politicians who claim not to be like politicians in they are lying and everybody can see that. There is no new politics, or old old. There's just politics. It's a shame because we need a decent opposition to hold the Government to account, but on this rate the Labour could well split with the sensible members of it realising that going forward under Corbyn would be a disaster.

 

[Ian1779]

To be fair to Corbyn if you look at his voting record he votes in relation to his principles not the party whip. Rather have a politician like that. Corbyn voted against Iraq War, welfare bill, Trident, removing the disability allowance. Smith either voted for or abstained completely. Whether he's leadership material is one thing, but you have to respect his principles.

 

[chiefdave]

Whether he's leadership material is one thing, but you have to respect his principles.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the most unlikely Corbyn supporter ever, said similar when he was on HIGNFY. Basically that he didn't agree with him but he always gave a straight answer and stood up for what he believed was right.

 

[Ian1779]

I really don't understand how the Labour party has managed to get itself into such a mess. Smith is a joke; every man and his dog can see the whole 'I'm more left wing than Jeremy' routine is a con to try and win over the party members who elected Corbyn. It's hard to take seriously anything the bloke says. Corbyn for such an experienced politician is a fool. He moans about disloyalty, this coming from the bloke who voted against his whip over 500 times. He claims to all about this new politics, substance over spin. Fact over fiction. Straight talking bla bla bla then pulls a stupid pc stunt on a train. The following day he announces plans to 'renationalise' the NHS. Could I possibly buy shares in the NHS in it's been privatized? I think not. If however he's against certain services being outsourced, fine. But say that.

The problem with politicians who claim not to be like politicians in they are lying and everybody can see that. There is no new politics, or old old. There's just politics. It's a shame because we need a decent opposition to hold the Government to account, but on this rate the Labour could well split with the sensible members of it realising that going forward under Corbyn would be a disaster.

You'd struggle to find anyone that said PFI has not been a disaster for NHS. Apart from those that have financially benefitted from it.

 

[chiefdave]

You'd struggle to find anyone that said PFI has not been a disaster for NHS. Apart from those that have financially benefitted from it.

Its something like £6 paid by the NHS to the private companies for every £1 they spend on the NHS.

 

[oakey]

It may be very admirable to have principles, of course, but if you lead a party and insist that everyone else has precisely the same principles then you either need a set of clones or to hand the job over to a real politician not a protester, like yourself. Corbyn should go back to the purity of the backbenches and leave leadership to someone else. Smith is preferable precisely because he understands this and would be prepared to step down if he lost the confidence of his colleagues. The ideal would be Smith winning and standing aside for a better leader in 2/3 years time if he fails to make the Labour Party ahead in the polls by then.

 

[Ian1779]

It may be very admirable to have principles, of course, but if you lead a party and insist that everyone else has precisely the same principles then you either need a set of clones or to hand the job over to a real politician not a protester, like yourself. Corbyn should go back to the purity of the backbenches and leave leadership to someone else. Smith is preferable precisely because he understands this and would be prepared to step down if he lost the confidence of his colleagues. The ideal would be Smith winning and standing aside for a better leader in 2/3 years time if he fails to make the Labour Party ahead in the polls by then.

Smith only has his personal motivations as his concern. He evens pretends to support most of Corbyn's ideas because he thinks that will attract them to him. Whether we like it, agree with it, or believe it unsustainable.. Corbyn has set a different agenda that a lot of people want to be a part of. It's about time that the 172 MP's actually represent the 1% - not the other way round.

 

[mrtrench]

In my opinion, Smith is only as bad as all politicians. Corbyn is far far worse - because of what he believes. Not the headline items of wanting world peace and greater equality - I believe all parties want that - but the details; the way he wants to try and achieve it. Now the hard Left have their hands on the party they won't let go under any circumstances until the power is levered from Corbyn's hands.

 

[Ian1779]

Whether you agree or disagree on individual things there is a clear difference of principles between them.

 

[chiefdave]

I see Labour are having another go at banning members as that worked out so well last time round. This time round they've banned someone for mentioning on Facebook that she likes Foo Fighters. They have this bizarre idea that anyone who has ever posted anything positive about another party is bad news. Aren't they exactly the people they need to win over? However Ronnie Draper, who donated £2m to the Lib Dems is fine.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I see Labour are having another go at banning members as that worked out so well last time round. This time round they've banned someone for mentioning on Facebook that she likes Foo Fighters. They have this bizarre idea that anyone who has ever posted anything positive about another party is bad news. Aren't they exactly the people they need to win over? However Ronnie Draper, who donated £2m to the Lib Dems is fine.

Hurrah for free-speech, democracy & all that shit (oops! That's me banished foever too)

...onwards & upwards PUSB

 

[Liquid Gold]

My mate had a phone call this morning from Labour HQ asking about his voting intentions and why he joined the party, something extremely wrong with that. I've not had my ballot through yet either, I'm without phone signal too, should I be worried!?

 

[Sick Boy]

My mate had a phone call this morning from Labour HQ asking about his voting intentions and why he joined the party, something extremely wrong with that. I've not had my ballot through yet either, I'm without phone signal too, should I be worried!?

When are they supposed to come through? I only joined the party relatively recently but was entitled to vote anyway as a member of a union?

 

[Liquid Gold]

When are they supposed to come through? I only joined the party relatively recently but was entitled to vote anyway as a member of a union?

Have a check on here. Apparently they are sending them out in batches up till the end of the month.

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/leadership/info