JR2 (2 Viewers)

[Nick]

Would make an ideal outfit for leading the Conga !

Guaranteed the people behind would nick my wig

 

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[wingy]

Got my outfit for the day ready

Is that a Gavel in his hand?
Could be deemed Offensive Weapon. :-(

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Is that a Gavel in his hand?

He's just pleased to see you.

 

[Captain Dart]

So it's

Sisu   ARVO
  |      |
     SBSL
       |
    Otium

?

I think it is like this.. I'm sure OSB will correct me if I'm in error..

 

[Nick]

Is that a Gavel in his hand?
Could be deemed Offensive Weapon. :-(

no he's just pleased to see you

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

I've gotta get one of them! Imagine a few hundred of us wearing those at the Ricoh. "GUILTY!"

Good idea, and holding placards saying SISU GUILTY. Mk Dons away would be good.

 

[shmmeee]

I think it is like this.. I'm sure OSB will correct me if I'm in error..
View attachment 6445

Excellent flow chart my man.

 

[Otis]

Got my outfit for the day ready

At least use your imagination lads!!

 

[James Smith]

Was always going to happen though wasn't it?

Yep it's almost as if they like being in court in front of judges - win, lose or draw.

 

[James Smith]

For me, those terms of Wasps purchase of the Ricoh were not offered to the club, and it needs to be answerable to law.
Hate this constant shit, but the club has a case for me.
I just wish they would pass on the club but continue JR2 once they have gone. Sell the club and keep all all the money from JR2 ,we just don't care.
All we care is for the club to have new owners

I agree with that, the level of interest in the club from Sisu appears to be negligible whereas the interest in litigation is intense. For any owner of any club that's the wrong way round, but I bet they don't care.

 

[James Smith]

Maybe, just to be controversial the council and higgs didn't offer them the same as they thought this would better protect the club in the long run. Most thought at the time that Sisu were using us as a vehicle for a land grab, ergo we would still be in the same position we are now.

Nah I think (personal opinion) the council were out to screw Sisu at the end and we were collateral damage. What I can believe happened was.... The (two faced) Council were the only ones in all this who could have increased the lease on the stadium. They negotiate with Wasps and agree in principle to sell them their half of ACL increase the lease etc. Council then approach Higgs with the idea of selling to Wasps. They say that we'll block any sale to Sisu (or anyone else for that matter) and Wasps will offer you the same terms as we're getting. Sisu are building their own stadium and you've got no guarantees on your shares. You were never meant to be in this for the long run so this is a way out that guarantees you at least get some money back. Higgs may not have been keen at this point, Wasps not being a local team and all that. So to provide more of a sweetener Wasps offer to name a stand after them and cash from ticket sales in that stand from Wasps games.

For the lawyers this is what I can only guess might have happened, it's personal opinion. I don't know what actually happened and I'm not marking any claims to know.

 

[James Smith]

This legal action is a complete waste of time. Like JR1 it will hurt the club immensely and be if no benefit at all.
Like JR1 it is unwinable.
Like JR1 we will have to wait till all appeals have been exhausted.
SISU will try and run the club at breakeven whilst this drags on.
The squad will change by 8 or 9 players each season. We will go through another few managers.
Joy Sepalla will still be a constant. As will Tim who may dissapear into the background if the animosity becomes too much again. They reappear when another scapegoat director gets sacked or sees it coming and resigns.
If we are luck we will get the odd manager like Mowbray who when they first come in attract players above our station. Eventually they will get done by an ever decreasing budget.
Only when JR2 is over and Ryton is sold will we finall get new owners.
Let's get on with this JR2 ASAP.
Get it over with ASAP.

You can't know that it's unwinnable until the Judge(s) have done a ruling. I agree though that it will either hurt the club or be of no benefit to us.

 

[dongonzalos]

You can't know that it's unwinnable until the Judge(s) have done a ruling. I agree though that it will either hurt the club or be of no benefit to us.

I knew JR1 was unwinable before the judges did their ruling.
judges are capable of common sense. In civil cases they can cut through all the spin and mud slinging and just look at the facts.

 

[Specs WT-R75]

Nah I think (personal opinion) the council were out to screw Sisu at the end and we were collateral damage. What I can believe happened was.... The (two faced) Council were the only ones in all this who could have increased the lease on the stadium. They negotiate with Wasps and agree in principle to sell them their half of ACL increase the lease etc. Council then approach Higgs with the idea of selling to Wasps. They say that we'll block any sale to Sisu (or anyone else for that matter) and Wasps will offer you the same terms as we're getting. Sisu are building their own stadium and you've got no guarantees on your shares. You were never meant to be in this for the long run so this is a way out that guarantees you at least get some money back. Higgs may not have been keen at this point, Wasps not being a local team and all that. So to provide more of a sweetener Wasps offer to name a stand after them and cash from ticket sales in that stand from Wasps games.

For the lawyers this is what I can only guess might have happened, it's personal opinion. I don't know what actually happened and I'm not marking any claims to know.

If this was the case then the Higgs would be obligated to take the council to court, just like they were obligated to try and recover their legal costs from Sisu that time. At the end of the day a 200+ year extension on the lease was clearly worth more than £1m (look at the increase in the valuation of ACL before/after), so this has technically screwed the charity as well as the football club... and yet no one is that up in the arms about Wasps and CCC screwing them over... but remember when it was Sisu - all hell was breaking loose!

Anyway, I suspect Higgs were complicit in this whole thing.

 

[dongonzalos]

If this was the case then the Higgs would be obligated to take the council to court, just like they were obligated to try and recover their legal costs from Sisu that time. At the end of the day a 200+ year extension on the lease was clearly worth more than £1m (look at the increase in the valuation of ACL before/after), so this has technically screwed the charity as well as the football club... and yet no one is that up in the arms about Wasps and CCC screwing them over... but remember when it was Sisu - all hell was breaking loose!

Anyway, I suspect Higgs were complicit in this whole thing.

Yes I don't think Higgs really trusted SUSU either.
I suspect and again also like James just my personal opinion.
That the thought process would have been more around if we offer the same to SISU and we lose Wasps. How can we trust that SISU will do a straight forward deal with no shenanigans involved. What if they agree the deal in principle then once Wasps are out of the picture they start turning the screw again and driving the deal down.
I think they probably got whatever reason trusted that the deal agreed would be straight forward with Wasps and would pannout exactly as it did.
Where as with SISU the relationship and more importantly all trust had gone.
Then they were left making a decision on what's best for the whole city, the charity, the council themselves and then unfortunately us as the 4th most important criteria.

 

[shmmeee]

The other point is simply that Sisu couldn't offer a big rugby team to the city and all that comes along with that, so it would always be apples and oranges.

A famous sports team means a lot for a city. I remember when we were in the Prem and my Dad would be going off around the world on diplomatic visits trying to drum up trade, CCFC was the number one thing foreign leaders asked about or got excited about when we brought a city top along as a present. I'd imagine these days that's far less the case as although Wasps aren't on that level they are more than us at the moment. Even if they weren't it's another string to the diplomatic bow that Sisu couldn't offer on top. It's like when new customers get better offers than existing customers because like it or not they're worth more. Hard to hear as a football fan that doesn't like egg chasing (or as a loyal Virgin customer), but reals above feels.

 

[Astute]

If this was the case then the Higgs would be obligated to take the council to court, just like they were obligated to try and recover their legal costs from Sisu that time. At the end of the day a 200+ year extension on the lease was clearly worth more than £1m (look at the increase in the valuation of ACL before/after), so this has technically screwed the charity as well as the football club... and yet no one is that up in the arms about Wasps and CCC screwing them over... but remember when it was Sisu - all hell was breaking loose!

Anyway, I suspect Higgs were complicit in this whole thing.

A lot of those who were going on about CCC screwing over SISU/CCFC didn't care about Higgs getting screwed over.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Do we know anymore about what grounds SISU are seeking JR2 on. It isn't state aid is it?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

I would assume it's regarding the lease not being extended before sale to increase return to taxpayers. Well, if they have any level of intelligence it will be. So probably not.

 

[Astute]

I would assume it's regarding the lease not being extended before sale to increase return to taxpayers. Well, if they have any level of intelligence it will be. So probably not.

That wouldn't bring them a return so can't see it.

 

[Bridport_SBA]

Don't forget that when Higgs jumped in originally, it was doing the club a favour, because Richardson et al had run out of cash. They provided the cash, they made sure the stadium was built. And at the time the Club had a legally enforceable option to step back and get its stake back as soon as it had the funds to do so. As I understand it SISU could have exercised that option at any time but I assume chose not to do so because they thought they could get it cheaper than the price the option required. Now I know that SISU weren't party to the original deal with Higgs and had every right to try to strike a cheaper deal but its entirely understandable that Higgs and the Council would be annoyed. They had used council and charity money to help out the club and now here were people who could afford to exercise the Option but who were trying to save a few quid at their expense, and who then really put the screws on by the rent strike and Northampton move. Not really surprising that relationships soured and when Wasps came along offering a decent price, their hands were snapped off. Maybe there's more to it than this - but what a massive shame that SISU didn't just exercise their option early doors and save us all the pantomime of the last few years…

 

[skybluetony176]

I would assume it's regarding the lease not being extended before sale to increase return to taxpayers. Well, if they have any level of intelligence it will be. So probably not.

As far as I'm aware there is no law covering this. There certainly is for the sale of freehold land for developing but even then best value for the taxpayer doesn't have to be monetary. It can be measured in other benefits such as improving the local area, environment, social benefits etc.

On the face of it to me this looks to be even flimsier than JR1. Even before you consider that JR2 will contradict alot of the arguments in JR1.

 

[Astute]

Don't forget that when Higgs jumped in originally, it was doing the club a favour, because Richardson et al had run out of cash. They provided the cash, they made sure the stadium was built. And at the time the Club had a legally enforceable option to step back and get its stake back as soon as it had the funds to do so. As I understand it SISU could have exercised that option at any time but I assume chose not to do so because they thought they could get it cheaper than the price the option required. Now I know that SISU weren't party to the original deal with Higgs and had every right to try to strike a cheaper deal but its entirely understandable that Higgs and the Council would be annoyed. They had used council and charity money to help out the club and now here were people who could afford to exercise the Option but who were trying to save a few quid at their expense, and who then really put the screws on by the rent strike and Northampton move. Not really surprising that relationships soured and when Wasps came along offering a decent price, their hands were snapped off. Maybe there's more to it than this - but what a massive shame that SISU didn't just exercise their option early doors and save us all the pantomime of the last few years…

But that won't be what the JR is about. In the first one it was said about the rent not being paid to distress ACL. Not illegal but immoral. But had nothing to do with the JR.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Don't forget that when Higgs jumped in originally, it was doing the club a favour, because Richardson et al had run out of cash.

...because the club board (including Derek Higgs) had run out of cash.

 

[Astute]

Do we know anymore about what grounds SISU are seeking JR2 on. It isn't state aid is it?

I would guess the opposite of the first JR as that one was lost

 

[Bridport_SBA]

...because the club board (including Derek Higgs) had run out of cash.

Point taken but what does that change? The Higgs Charity was under no obligation to help out.