The Butts - CRFC Confirms it is willing to join mediation talks (16 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

Really? How much was owed to the council at the point Wasps took over compared to how much Wasps owe on the bond issue?

Thought it was £19M in total to get the Ricoh on a 250 year lease and the bond was £35M.

 

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[Captain Dart]

Really? How much was owed to the council at the point Wasps took over compared to how much Wasps owe on the bond issue?

They have roughly doubled the debt, half is the council loan they took over & half is money Wasps raised to enact their plans, upwards of £30M in total.
The council shouldn't get involved in the debts of either Wasps or CCFC, once bitten twice shy.

 

[chiefdave]

Thought it was £19M in total to get the Ricoh on a 250 year lease and the bond was £35M.

No they purchased both the council and Higgs share for £2.77m each. They then extended the lease for £1m. So a total of £6.54m.

But we're not talking about how much they paid we're talking about the debt.

At the point Wasps took over ACL the debt was £14.4m of which they council paid back £13.4m. I suspect the £1m for the lease extension was actually repaying the loan but the council were concerned about the legal consequences of giving away a 200 year lease for nothing.

Currently the debt is £35m, more than double. Hence saying Wasps cleared the debt is misleading. Yes they cleared the debt to the council but they now owe far more than before.

 

[italiahorse]

No they purchased both the council and Higgs share for £2.77m each. They then extended the lease for £1m. So a total of £6.54m.

But we're not talking about how much they paid we're talking about the debt.

At the point Wasps took over ACL the debt was £14.4m of which they council paid back £13.4m. I suspect the £1m for the lease extension was actually repaying the loan but the council were concerned about the legal consequences of giving away a 200 year lease for nothing.

Currently the debt is £35m, more than double. Hence saying Wasps cleared the debt is misleading. Yes they cleared the debt to the council but they now owe far more than before.
.

You will need to see where the difference has gone.
Some went back to the owners to pay off his loan.
The rest appears to be the cost of relocating, playing squad and improvement in the Ricoh facilities.
It appears on paper that this has increased the Ricoh value and hence Assets are higher than liabilities.

 

[martcov]

Really? How much was owed to the council at the point Wasps took over compared to how much Wasps owe on the bond issue?

We we're talking about SISU purchasing the stadium or not. Wasps bonds are a separate issue.

 

[CCFC88]

So of the 35m finance they raised what will they have spent? 19.94? (6.54+13.4)

Will they be sat on the 15m or have they invested that in the playing side, stadium upgrades?

 

[italiahorse]

So of the 35m finance they raised what will they have spent? 19.94? (6.54+13.4)

Will they be sat on the 15m or have they invested that in the playing side, stadium upgrades?

Invested

 

[CCFC88]

Yes

Yes they are sat on it or yes they have invested it?

 

[italiahorse]

Yes they are sat on it or yes they have invested it?

Sorry
Yes invested

 

[chiefdave]

Will they be sat on the 15m or have they invested that in the playing side, stadium upgrades?

They've had to take out an overdraft and had a loan put in by the owner which doesn't sound like they're sat on a huge pile of money.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

You will need to see where the difference has gone.
Some went back to the owners to pay of his loan.
The rest appears to be the cost of relocating and improvement in the Ricoh facilities.
It appears on paper that this has increased the Ricoh value and hence Assets are higher than liabilities.

Your right but its the same as when Fisher says we are debt free.
The two Owners work in exactly the same way they lie about everything don't much care who they distroy as long as they make a few quid should ban these companies and put all their owners in jail.
Thieving bastard.

 

[CCFC88]

What % coupon were the bonds issued at, do we know when they are due for repayment and how much they will need to repay?

 

[italiahorse]

Your right but its the same as when Fisher says we are debt free.
The two Owners work in exactly the same way they lie about everything don't much care who they distroy as long as they make a few quid should ban these companies and put all their owners in jail.
Thieving bastard.

In my limited knowledge.
As long as the assets are more than the liabilities that's okay.
On paper Wasps (thanks to Ricoh asset value) appear to be in a positive.
You know about CCFC.

 

[skybluetony176]

The Ricoh used to be a football ground until those wankers Wasps turned up. So why would the Butts be called anything other than a rugger ground if only rugger was played there?

Indeed but as I pointed out to FP yesterday the Ricoh has always been a multi use site without conditions on the site for type of sport from planning to completion. Nothing has changed because Wasps have rocked up. Unlike the BPA. where there are conditions on site usage and the wording on this application could deliberately reflect said conditions.

 

[chiefdave]

Indeed but as I pointed out to FP yesterday the Ricoh has always been a multi use site without conditions on the site for type of sport from planning to completion. Nothing has changed because Wasps have rocked up. Unlike the BPA. where there are conditions on site usage and the wording on this application could deliberately reflect said conditions.

That's not a planning issue. That's a restriction the council tried, and failed, to have added to the BPA lease when ownership was transferred recently to Jon Sharp / CRFC.

 

[skybluetony176]

Quote from the council in the CT today

So doesn't sound like the "active not passive support from Coventry City Council" Fisher spoke about. Why can't the football club get the same level of assistance Wasps do with any plans. When it was them building at Higgs there were emails from the council talking about how they could ensure the application passed.

It would probably help if the club submitted an application thus formalising the process at which point the planning office is bound by law to assist. As always Dave you have to put the horse before the cart.

 

[chiefdave]

It would probably help if the club submitted an application thus formalising the process at which point the planning office is bound by law to assist. As always Dave you have to put the horse before the cart.

Come on, you have to be blind not to see the council fall over themselves to assist Wasps and do the very minimum they can legally get away with when it comes to us.

 

[tisza]

So of the 35m finance they raised what will they have spent? 19.94? (6.54+13.4)

Will they be sat on the 15m or have they invested that in the playing side, stadium upgrades?

From memory of their bond document about 10 m was to repay wasps owner's loan

 

[skybluetony176]

That's not a planning issue. That's a restriction the council tried, and failed, to have added to the BPA lease when ownership was transferred recently to Jon Sharp / CRFC.

It's a historical condition that Chris Millerchip had imposed when CRFC first took over the site to protect it against development. Does the condition still stand since the rights were transferred to JS is the real question. My understanding is that the condition is attached to the site not the lease holder but if you know better I'm all ears.

 

[Nick]

It's a historical condition that Chris Millerchip had imposed when CRFC first took over the site to protect it against development. Does the condition still stand since the rights were transferred to JS is the real question. My understanding is that the condition is attached to the site not the lease holder but if you know better I'm all ears.

Which condition do you mean?

 

[skybluetony176]

Come on, you have to be blind not to see the council fall over themselves to assist Wasps and do the very minimum they can legally get away with when it comes to us.

Once the process had been started. If TF sits around waiting for the council to hold his hand then nothing is going to happen is it. Maybe that's the plan anyway. They apparently have the finances in place, they apparently have various designs in place, why haven't they started the ball rolling? If you think it's because the council need to do it then sorry you really are a mug

 

[duffer]

It's a historical condition that Chris Millerchip had imposed when CRFC first took over the site to protect it against development. Does the condition still stand since the rights were transferred to JS is the real question. My understanding is that the condition is attached to the site not the lease holder but if you know better I'm all ears.

The condition about not playing professional football at the BPA? That has never been in place - the council tried to get it added when discussions about a ground share with CCFC became known. This is a matter of public record, SBT.

EXCLUSIVE: This leaked email reveals council bid to block Coventry City F.C Butts groundshare

 

[chiefdave]

It's a historical condition that Chris Millerchip had imposed when CRFC first took over the site to protect it against development. Does the condition still stand since the rights were transferred to JS is the real question. My understanding is that the condition is attached to the site not the lease holder but if you know better I'm all ears.

The original condition had to be removed as it forbid all football, not that the condition was ever enforced. If the condition was still in place Cov Utd couldn't play there. It was when the condition was being altered that CCC wanted to add a clause to prevent professional football. When that was made public they quickly changed their tune and claimed they were never actually going to do that.

 

[Moff]

You will need to see where the difference has gone.
Some went back to the owners to pay off his loan.
The rest appears to be the cost of relocating, playing squad and improvement in the Ricoh facilities.
It appears on paper that this has increased the Ricoh value and hence Assets are higher than liabilities.

I thought Wasps haven't had the valuation done, and therefore it is not known whether the assets outstrip the liabilities.
We can all make presumptions, I am sure yours are far more pro than mine, but at the end of the day the fact of its value is currently unconfirmed.

(If there is a current valuation I am happy to pointed to it)

 

[sky blue john]

Come on, you have to be blind not to see the council fall over themselves to assist Wasps and do the very minimum they can legally get away with when it comes to us.

Yes they do but why is that again ?
Maybe something to with Sisu owning the club and the stunts they have pulled, just a hunch!
The only chance we have of the council ever being back on side is once Sisu are gone, its not rocket science.

 

[duffer]

I thought Wasps haven't had the valuation done, and therefore it is not known whether the assets outstrip the liabilities.
We can all make presumptions, I am sure yours are far more pro than mine, but at the end of the day the fact of its value is currently unconfirmed.

(If there is a current valuation I am happy to pointed to it)

What strikes me also, is that this seems like a circular argument. If Wasps become insolvent, then a key part of the asset value is supposedly that of the Ricoh lease. But what is the value of the Ricoh lease without Wasps playing there - surely it must be substantially impacted? It could be I'm missing something obvious here in fairness, but it doesn't really add up to me.

Putting all emotion and politics aside, from a hard-headed business point-of-view I don't think I'd want to risk my money in their bonds on this premise.

 

[duffer]

Yes they do but why is that again ?
Maybe something to with Sisu owning the club and the stunts they have pulled, just a hunch!
The only chance we have of the council ever being back on side is once Sisu are gone, its not rocket science.

If that's the attitude then it's also not rocket science to suggest that you're facing the real possibility of the club leaving the town, tumbling further into the abyss or folding entirely - perhaps all three! Maybe that's OK for you if it's the price of getting rid of SISU. but I'd rather find an alternative.

SISU aren't the only side here who have pulled stunts - where does it get us if they don't at least start talking?

 

[sky blue john]

If that's the attitude then it's also not rocket science to suggest that you're facing the real possibility of the club leaving the town, tumbling further into the abyss or folding entirely - perhaps all three! Maybe that's OK for you if it's the price of getting rid of SISU. but I'd rather find an alternative.

SISU aren't the only side here who have pulled stunts - where does it get us if they don't at least start talking?

So you prefer the slow death.
You should realize the following by now.
Sisu are only interested in two things selling Ryton for housing and JR2 !
As proved on numerous occaisions they don't care about CCFC.
Once they are finally gone will we be able to rebuild. But untill then we will continue on this endless road of decline.

 

[skybluetony176]

The condition about not playing professional football at the BPA? That has never been in place - the council tried to get it added when discussions about a ground share with CCFC became known. This is a matter of public record, SBT.

EXCLUSIVE: This leaked email reveals council bid to block Coventry City F.C Butts groundshare

Well then there's even less excuses for TF, JS and anyone else involved to not get the ball rolling is there.

The finance's are in place we're told, plans have been drawn we're told and apparently there is no conditions in place to stop us playing at the site. What's stopping them getting the ball rolling? Other than themselves?

 

[skybluetony176]

The original condition had to be removed as it forbid all football, not that the condition was ever enforced. If the condition was still in place Cov Utd couldn't play there. It was when the condition was being altered that CCC wanted to add a clause to prevent professional football. When that was made public they quickly changed their tune and claimed they were never actually going to do that.

Then nothing is stopping them getting the planning process started is there? Why haven't they? It seems they could have the minute JS took control of the BPA. Why haven't they?

 

[duffer]

So you prefer the slow death.
You should realize the following by now.
Sisu are only interested in two things selling Ryton for housing and JR2 !
As proved on numerous occaisions they don't care about CCFC.
Once they are finally gone will we be able to rebuild. But untill then we will continue on this endless road of decline.

Sounds like you'd kill the patient to cure the disease. You've realised that SISU aren't going anywhere at the moment, right?

 

[sky blue john]

Sounds like you'd kill the patient to cure the disease. You've realised that SISU aren't going anywhere at the moment, right?

Why are you assuming CCFC has to die for Sisu to leave, I don't see that way at all?
They obviously going nowhere untill they have sold Ryton and JR2 has run its course!
Duffer you carry on and lap up the charade !

 

[duffer]

Well then there's even less excuses for TF, JS and anyone else involved to not get the ball rolling is there.

The finance's are in place we're told, plans have been drawn we're told and apparently there is no conditions in place to stop us playing at the site. What's stopping them getting the ball rolling? Other than themselves?

Isn't the point here that it would be a lot easier to do if all parties were on board, including by definition the council? You've accepted now that they've tried to block a possible move to the Butts already, I think. Unless you're a bit daft, and I don't think you are, I think you'd also accept that this would be a lot easier to do with council support.

As others have said, surely the fastest way to find out whether this is another piece of SISU bullshit, is for the council to join in with this mediation and to say that they'll help the club find somewhere else. The eaiest way to drag it out and potentially ensure that at some point in the future we'll be playing somewhere other than in Coventry, is for the council to keep playing the same game.

 

[italiahorse]

I thought Wasps haven't had the valuation done, and therefore it is not known whether the assets outstrip the liabilities.
We can all make presumptions, I am sure yours are far more pro than mine, but at the end of the day the fact of its value is currently unconfirmed.

(If there is a current valuation I am happy to pointed to it)

The current one is always the last one

 

[bawtryneal]

A fantasy as much as Fisher's new stadium. Why would Wasps give us more income when they need every single penny themselves?

They need CCFC for the naming rights deal. I would expect they only get half the value without CCFC on board