C-Unit Council (19 Viewers)

[Astute]

Yes, but it still involved talking didn't it? Legals were ongoing then too.

It's the same as Wasps suddenly saying they can't talk because of legals, after they already had been.

Wasps didn't say they couldn't talk. They said that they wouldn't talk until it had all finished. Just like they have said about us moving to the Butts.

 

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[italiahorse]

It's funny how Jon Sharp is able to make a distinction between CCFC and SISU but some on here cannot...

He is saying he won't deal with Sisu only CCFC.
Love to know how that on will work when CCFC have not got the ability to finance the stadium, or the liquidity to give an investor confidence in building a stadium.
They will always have to go back to Sisu like they always have.
If Jon Sharp believes he can deal with one but not the other he is either a fool or he playing a very clever game for CRFC.

 

[Astute]

Come on Nick. What brought us back to the Ricoh was the SISU plan to get it unencumbered didn't work and the vast majority of us not following them to Northampton.

I haven't ignored it, you said that they came back because nobody was going? Nobody went in the first season.

Like I said you either didn't see it about Wasps or you chose to ignore it.

 

[italiahorse]

The 20,000 fans were paying an average of £10 per head to attend. With no revenues really from other sources the percentage was ridiculously high. Keep kissing the councils backside though.

Without making any investment in the facilities (or giving them away when they had them) what right do CCFC have to the profits from them ?
Not saying I'm happy about it but I do understand that you don't get something for nothing.
Unless you are an efficient hedge fund of coarse.

 

[Grendel]

Without making any investment in the facilities (or giving them away when they had them) what right do CCFC have to the profits from them ?
Not saying I'm happy about it but I do understand that you don't get something for nothing.
Unless you are an efficient hedge fund of coarse.

Plenty of clubs have had something for nothing as you put it. Want to go through the list? Shall I start? How about Nottingham forest?

 

[italiahorse]

Do SISU own Stevenson now and have him on their books? Might want to let the FA know about third party ownership.

Did Joy sell Vincelot too?

Why? They were in the wrong books last time (along with the golden share) and they did absolutely nothing.

 

[italiahorse]

Plenty of clubs have had something for nothing as you put it. Want to go through the list? Shall I start? How about Nottingham forest?

Yes please. Can you cross reference the relationship they have with the owners as well ?

If the income stream was so important why didn't they buy into them when they had the chance?
Didn't they not concentrate on 'Operation Premiership' instead that in my mind means that in the PL rent and income streams would have been irrelevant.

 

[skybluetony176]

The 20,000 fans were paying an average of £10 per head to attend. With no revenues really from other sources the percentage was ridiculously high. Keep kissing the councils backside though.

I don't think anyone has said that it wasn't ridiculously high have they? Just pointed out that the rent in isolation was not responsible the the club going tit's up. It was part of a bigger problem including ridiculously high player wages that far far outweighed the ridiculously high rent. No body is kissing anything by not letting you exaggerate that all our problems started and ended with the rent. Don't see why you need to be such an arse about being corrected.

 

[olderskyblue]

My problem is as much when we went back to the likes of Robinson, Richardson, Elliott, McGinnity, Higgs etc. Confidentiality agreements when Richardson left meant we never knew why our club had been run into the ground, and nothing was tested objectively... so all we were left with was rumour and innuendo.

Now I'm not saying that this particular legal action will provide all (any?) of the answers, but I do think things should be tested if needs be. Something, in all this... doesn't sit right (and yes, I appreciate this particular legal action will probably not get to that - if only we had journalists who actually investigated, rather than just throwing FOI requests in) so I'd like all areas to be tested if needs be. I appreciate that might, in the short term, hurt the club as collateral damage (from all sides) but in the long term, I think it's necessary. Somewhere, from all sides, we need this swept apart so we can start seeing the club as a club, with benefits that can't be measured on a balance sheet, or even in a general strategy of the council (and no, by sayng this, this doesn't mean that we don't need the same from owners either... just to cover the tedious responses )

And yes, I will repeat the blackmail We'll end up in circles and probably have to agree to differ, but I don't understand why any agreement reached by talking can't then be contingent on legal action being dropped anyway. If a deal were good enough for the club/owners, I bet the legal action'd go away...

I agree about wanting all areas to be tested, but the problem I have with it is that I don't think JR2 will provide any answers, but will just prolong the agony for a few more years, and may see us drop into oblivion.

Dropping the legals may actually switch that light on at the end of the tunnel, hence it may be the better option for CCFC.

 

[jas365]

Why? They were in the wrong books last time (along with the golden share) and they did absolutely nothing.

I was at the 3rd of the forums prior to the Northampton move. Fisher sat there and told everyone that CCFC Holdings were not the football club and that all the payroll was through the other ltd co. At that point someone passed around a document from HMRC with a current year coding notice in the name of CCFC Holdings. The accounts were a farce, god knows how they ever got signed off.

 

[Astute]

I agree about wanting all areas to be tested, but the problem I have with it is that I don't think JR2 will provide any answers, but will just prolong the agony for a few more years, and may see us drop into oblivion.

Dropping the legals may actually switch that light on at the end of the tunnel, hence it may be the better option for CCFC.

I fully agree.

To me all I can see from JR2 is CCC doing everything with legal advice and doing nothing legally wrong. SISU will show themselves as doing things morally wrong. This leaves the result going the same way as before. And while all this goes on our club is left to rot. And nobody including CRFC will do anything to help us until it is all finished.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Regarding whether SISU and CCFC are separate entities and Jon Sharp could deal with the latter and not the former, the JR1 Judgment states that "The administrator sold the assets of the Football Club (including the "golden share" in the Football League) to another SISU company, Otium Entertainment Group Limited. That company currently owns the Football Club. CCFC has now been put into liquidation, and CCFCH has been dissolved."

The judgment was dated June 2014, so the company structure MAY have changed (again, please bring me up to speed if I am wrong), but at this date, the football club is entirely owned by a SISU company (Otium). I guess it is possible that Otium and the football club itself will have boards of directors and/or shareholders, but is it doubtful that they can ever act truly independently of SISU.

Edit: I agree the prospect of success for SISU in JR2 is poor, so a huge dollop of goodwill by them by dropping the case would be such a positive sign. In any event, the judgment may be that the sale has to be reversed, but there is nothing to stop the Council acting differently but having the same outcome. SISU are more likely to see a better financial outcome if they negotiate NOW for a long-term future for our football club, with a bit of investment that will see us climbing back up the leagues.

 

[Chipfat]

Sisu have played a game of poker with the club ever since they worked out the premiership gold mine was not an option. Since then they have been bluffing and still are, no matter which way they turn they come running back as they know the city is the key to a return of any sort of money. I said it few years ago, its ok playing poker but when everyone else around the table knows your hand its time to fold your hand and take the hit.

Every other party will not, does not and cares not to deal with Sisu, they dont have too, so blame other parties all you want, but over time they have all gained a better hand while SISU have fucked about with a pair, in more ways then one. So cary on making Tims life easier doing his and Les's dirty work for them, blame everyone else but when you go down the path Sisu have chosen, they should not be expecting favour's, hand outs or a lovely conversation over a cuppa tea. They are using our passion and emotion of the club we love as a tool against people and parties from within the city.

Until Sisu show, money, investment, a plan of short, mid and long term, all the other parties are saying "we have heard it all before",. Tim stated a few have turned up with an offer for the club, but not one has shown the ability to have the backing. He should look at that statement and now know that is what others are thinking of him and his so called investors. He may be able to play a room full of rightly highly charged and upset fans, but he now is in a room with people of the same ilk, fellow owners, executives or CCC, they will not only play hard back, but have the better hand and know it. So Tim show your hand and stop telling your little friend to spout rubbish and either Fold or fucking shut up and give the fans a break from falling over ourselves to fight each other.

Enjoy Wembley, but be together in showing all that this club is a mess and with the right people in control the 40, 000 people would and will support something that they are proud of. As well as being happy to pass down to generations what supporting a good club with hope can bring.

 

[christonabike]

Sisu have played a game of poker with the club ever since they worked out the premiership gold mine was not an option. Since then they have been bluffing and still are, no matter which way they turn they come running back as they know the city is the key to a return of any sort of money. I said it few years ago, its ok playing poker but when everyone else around knows your hand its time to fold your hand and take the hit.

Every other party will not, does not and cares not to deal with Sisu, they dont have too, so blame other parties, all you want, but over time they have all gained a better hand while SISU have fucked about with a pair, in more ways then one. So again do Tim and Les's work for them, blame everyone else but you go down the path Sisu have they should not be expecting favour's, hand outs or a lovely conversation over a cuppa tea. They are using our passion and emotion of the club we love as a tool against people and parties from within the city.

Until these show, money, investment, a plan of short, mid and long term all the other parties are saying we have heard it all before, as Tim says a few have turned up with an offer for the club, but not one has shown the ability to have the backing. He should look at that statement and now know that is what others are thinking of him and his so called investors. He may be able to play a room full of rightly highly charged and upset fans but he is dealing with people of the same ilk when dealing with fella owners or CCC and they will play hard back. So Tim show your hand and stop telling your little friend to spout rubbish and either Fold or fucking shut up and give the fans a break from falling over ourselves to fight each other.

Enjoy wembley but all should show that this club is a mess and with the right people the 40, 000 people would and will support something that they are proud of and want to follow and pass down for generations for better days a head.

Far too much sense for many on here to understand! And I do worry about people at times!:woot:

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

No, it wasn't at Sixfields it was after that. Nice try though.

You can also see it as blackmail that the club will be forced out if they don't drop it

The biggest piece of blackmail was taking the club to Sixfields and holding them to ransom there.

 

[clint van damme]

So, can't be arsed to read the whole thread.

Has anyone worked out what is being mediated yet or are we all still busy frothing at the mouth?

still frothing, I'll let you know when it's subsided to a dribble.

 

[hutch1972]

Lol,
You and Gendall must be extremely gullable and stupid to believe that a championship club who had an average gate of 20,000 fans could go bust twice just because of a £1.2million annual rent.

I said nothing about going bust , my point is the total disregard for this football club by the council which started way , way before sisu arrived.
Are you so gullible as to believe ccc have in any way been upfront about anything at all. They saw us as a cash cow and used us as such.
Please remember we had a buy back clause which as it turns out wasn't worth jack shit with ccc holding a veto.
This is pure spite and has been since the day we moved.
I despise sisu , but ccc , wasps and this city of rugby Bollocks is up there with them.
The irony is that initially the council didn't even want a stadium.

 

[clint van damme]

I agree about wanting all areas to be tested, but the problem I have with it is that I don't think JR2 will provide any answers, but will just prolong the agony for a few more years, and may see us drop into oblivion.

Dropping the legals may actually switch that light on at the end of the tunnel, hence it may be the better option for CCFC.

i would love sisu to drop the legals but can't see it happening without some encouragement.
Why does everyone expect a company, who get quite rightly get slated on here day in and day out on here for there incompetence. lack of morals and downright belligerence to suddenly start acting in a conciliatory and reasoned manner?

Get them round the table, find out what it will take to get them to either start acting in the best interest of the club or fuck off, (preferably the latter), and see if there's anything can be done to help achieve their departure.
Getting round the table with them isn't a commitment to anything, but while everyone remains entrenched in their default position we won't get any where.

I believe they want out as much as we want out, they just don't know how to do it with any semblance of credibility.

 

[dongonzalos]

Really? So surely if she gives the nod to say yes, she gave the nod to say no to the offers?

Do you go to games to support CCFC or do you go there to support SISU?

Yes if an asset owned by SISU worth possibly 1.5 million is to be sold. Then Joy Seppalla would have to authorise if it happens or not. I am surprised you don't know that.
I go to the ground to support CCFC who are owned by SISU.
I know that any significant decision regarding CCFC is made by SISU.
Such as.....
What budget we will have for the year.
Where we will play.,
If we sell a player for money or not.

The only way Jon Sharpe isn't really dealing with SISU is if SISU sell CCFC.
Otherwise he is dealing with SISU. He may not directly speak to the SISU board and that will be what his play of words is about, but he is dealing with SISU if he is dealing with CCFC.
If CCFC want to play at the Butts then that decision will be authorised by Joy Seppalla

 

[ashbyjan]

Just to clarify one point as certain journalists are trying to muddy the water - the mediation is not meant to resolve JR2 and the rights and wrongs of the sale of the Ricoh, rent strikes etc etc (the same historical bollox that gets rehashed here ad infinitum). It is about securing a future for CCFC. This should cover the academy, the training ground and the home ground - all matters that, to a lesser or greater degree, involve CCFC, CCC, ACL/Wasps, CRFC, Coventry Sports Foundation, FA, FL, Sport England, Rugby Borough Council. The Trust view is that the council and wasps could enter into the process without prejudicing their legal position with regard JR2, it might even strengthen their hand if they are seen to be co-operating, and they do not have to stray onto any territory involving JR2. The football club should present to the mediator what they believe they require going forward to survive and prosper and the mediator should engage with the other parties as to the deliverability of these. CCC have said they will look at any planning applications made (which would be from CRFC not CCFC anyway) as its their statutory duty to do so but until that is done how can they be active, passive or indifferent?

Maybe it is more smoke and mirrors and hollow soundbites from Fisher as he stalls for time and keeps FL at bay for another year or two with the scheme of the BPA as the latest "answer" whilst Seppala ploughs on with JR2 to keep her investors off her back and all the while the club sinks lower and lower but I think that CCC should engage in the process and call his bluff.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Yep, he could.

Unless of course you go to games to support SISU?

The same way that Cov Rugby, Ticketmaster and Just Sport have agreements with CCFC and not SISU.

I thought that Tim Fisher of CCFC had agreed a rent reduction with ACL and CCC until Joy Sepalla of Sisu said no. Who has the ultimate say so and control?

 

[dongonzalos]

He is saying he won't deal with Sisu only CCFC.
Love to know how that on will work when CCFC have not got the ability to finance the stadium, or the liquidity to give an investor confidence in building a stadium.
They will always have to go back to Sisu like they always have.
If Jon Sharp believes he can deal with one but not the other he is either a fool or he playing a very clever game for CRFC.

He is a smart man.
He makes the most of Wasps been here. Using their players, getting extra fans in who are pissed off with SISU and Wasps.
He has a good relationship with CCC as they have to give him leeway because he could have kicked up a massive stink over the Wasps situation and its impact on CRFC.
Now he has SISU banging on his door trying throw money at him to develop CRFC's stadium.
Now he isn't dumb and he knows SISU are desperate so if it is going to happen it will happen on his terms and what's best for the Rugby club.
Yet he also knows how SISU have failed to produce on quite a few plans recently.
He knows their are issues with SISU, CCC and Wasps. So he isn't going to risk burning his bridges.

So he sets out his agenda with SISU such as only a 12k capacity stadium and that it will be controlled by CRFC.
At the same time he keeps Wasps and the Council happy with a carefully worded statement about not dealing with SISU and peace has to break out first.
He us a smart man

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

People are quite happy to slag the council off for not agreeing to enter the mediation process, but there has been no mention of Wasps or CSF. Am I wrong?

 

[skybluetony176]

I thought that Tim Fisher of CCFC had agreed a rent reduction with ACL and CCC until Joy Sepalla of Sisu said no. Who has the ultimate say so and control?

Was that part of the deal that Tim shook on to buy back the Higgs share? Or is this another occasion that someone who doesn't have ultimate say and control had ultimate say and control?

 

[hutch1972]

He is a smart man.
He makes the most of Wasps been here. Using their players, getting extra fans in who are pissed off with SISU and Wasps.
He has a good relationship with CCC as they have to give him leeway because he could have kicked up a massive stink over the Wasps situation and its impact on CRFC.
Now he has SISU banging on his door trying throw money at him to develop CRFC's stadium.
Now he isn't dumb and he knows SISU are desperate so if it is going to happen it will happen on his terms and what's best for the Rugby club.
Yet he also knows how SISU have failed to produce on quite a few plans recently.
He knows their are issues with SISU, CCC and Wasps. So he isn't going to risk burning his bridges.

So he sets out his agenda with SISU such as only a 12k capacity stadium and that it will be controlled by CRFC.
At the same time he keeps Wasps and the Council happy with a carefully worded statement about not dealing with SISU and peace has to break out first.
He us a smart man

So he's forgotten that crc were not informed about a franchise rugby team being airlifted onto their doorstep , that's how much they cared about them.
Fair play to cov supporters , attendances have not been affected at all since they arrived , so not all of them are jumping on wasps bandwagon.
As to kicking up a stink about it , thousands of ccfc fans have been doing that for 2 years have they not ?
They don't give a fuck about anyone or anything except for their babies at the Ricoh , least of all the very expendable coventry , rugby and football clubs.

 

[Grendel]

The whole thread is hilarious and completely misses the point.

The council love in is hilarious.

The point is clubs have bad owners and owners who run football clubs into debt. The difference is the attitude of some local authorities and ours.

From the Bhati brothers in Wolverhampton to Nottingham forest running out of funds councils have stepped in to help. By buying the ground and leasing back on a peppercorn rent to providing loans, extensions to loans, writing off loans.

Only one to my knowledge has built a ground (which cost the taxpayer a third of the price of a swimming pool) - created s loan on the back of it and offered a restricted lease to the management company and then asked the football club to pay the whole mortgage with no benefit. Only one has then massively extended the period when someone a hundred miles away comes to town.

Still if this is a representative sample of our fanbase now I see they have and continue to get away with it.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

What I find amazing. Is all these people who have wanted any other organisation to bend over backwards as long as it's for the good of CCFC.
They actively wanted a children's charity to be put under financial pressure.
They wanted a business half owned by CCC half owned by a charity to go bust.
They currently want Wasps to go bust and their fans to suffer.
All because it would be good for CCFC.
They supported CCFC breaking a legally binding contract.
Some even were ok with the club been held at ransom in another town!!

All these people want mediation and a solution to the problem.

Wasps and the Council apparently can help do this. They are both asking for legal action to be dropped that affects them both so they can start helping.

Yet the jokers on here who want the best at all costs for CCFC above all else. What do they say.....

Oh no you can't affect SISU's right to taken legal action!!!



Best post this year without question....

 

[chiefdave]

Just to clarify one point as certain journalists are trying to muddy the water - the mediation is not meant to resolve JR2 and the rights and wrongs of the sale of the Ricoh, rent strikes etc etc (the same historical bollox that gets rehashed here ad infinitum). It is about securing a future for CCFC. This should cover the academy, the training ground and the home ground - all matters that, to a lesser or greater degree, involve CCFC, CCC, ACL/Wasps, CRFC, Coventry Sports Foundation, FA, FL, Sport England, Rugby Borough Council.

It never came across to me as a means to resolve JR2. That's why it baffles me that so many people on here, where everyone should be a CCFC supporter, are quick to defend the council and Wasps for not agreeing to mediation.

If they don't at some point all start talking again we will undoubtedly be playing out of the city after next season.

 

[Grendel]

It never came across to me as a means to resolve JR2. That's why it baffles me that so many people on here, where everyone should be a CCFC supporter, are quick to defend the council and Wasps for not agreeing to mediation.

If they don't at some point all start talking again we will undoubtedly be playing out of the city after next season.

When you read some of the apologist nonsense on here "yeah it was high rent but" and posters going into like over drive it hammers home the fact that with fans like ours who needs enemies

 

[clint van damme]

He is a smart man.
He makes the most of Wasps been here. Using their players, getting extra fans in who are pissed off with SISU and Wasps.
He has a good relationship with CCC as they have to give him leeway because he could have kicked up a massive stink over the Wasps situation and its impact on CRFC.
Now he has SISU banging on his door trying throw money at him to develop CRFC's stadium.
Now he isn't dumb and he knows SISU are desperate so if it is going to happen it will happen on his terms and what's best for the Rugby club.
Yet he also knows how SISU have failed to produce on quite a few plans recently.
He knows their are issues with SISU, CCC and Wasps. So he isn't going to risk burning his bridges.

So he sets out his agenda with SISU such as only a 12k capacity stadium and that it will be controlled by CRFC.
At the same time he keeps Wasps and the Council happy with a carefully worded statement about not dealing with SISU and peace has to break out first.
He us a smart man

I sincerely doubt sisu are to be honest though I think your pretty much spot on about Sharp, wish he ran the football club.

 

[Captain Dart]

Do you really think Tim is brave enough to sanction the sale of one of our better players with out consulting Joy first? I mean she's hurting now. Imagine what she would be like if a player who would arguably be instrumental in a quick return to league one was sold. She'd probably join the Trust, get a ticket to the next forum with TF and stand at the back of the room shouting abuse at him like others who are hurting.

I don't think Joy cares much about player transactions, other than if a massive deal was in the offing it might lead her to modify her strategy, essentially she is only interested in the bottom line & clearly has instructed Timmy he cannot have any more money.

 

[hutch1972]

It never came across to me as a means to resolve JR2. That's why it baffles me that so many people on here, where everyone should be a CCFC supporter, are quick to defend the council and Wasps for not agreeing to mediation.

If they don't at some point all start talking again we will undoubtedly be playing out of the city after next season.

I agree , it is not about stopping jr2 , it's about forging some kind of relationship.
I tried to find the Richardson statement when he explained , if ccfc want to sue the council then that is their business and it will not affect our negotiations.
So what's changed ?
If they come to the table you can bet your arse Duggins will be just behind, hanging out their back end !!

 

[olderskyblue]

Just to clarify one point as certain journalists are trying to muddy the water - the mediation is not meant to resolve JR2 and the rights and wrongs of the sale of the Ricoh, rent strikes etc etc (the same historical bollox that gets rehashed here ad infinitum). It is about securing a future for CCFC. This should cover the academy, the training ground and the home ground - all matters that, to a lesser or greater degree, involve CCFC, CCC, ACL/Wasps, CRFC, Coventry Sports Foundation, FA, FL, Sport England, Rugby Borough Council. The Trust view is that the council and wasps could enter into the process without prejudicing their legal position with regard JR2, it might even strengthen their hand if they are seen to be co-operating, and they do not have to stray onto any territory involving JR2. The football club should present to the mediator what they believe they require going forward to survive and prosper and the mediator should engage with the other parties as to the deliverability of these. CCC have said they will look at any planning applications made (which would be from CRFC not CCFC anyway) as its their statutory duty to do so but until that is done how can they be active, passive or indifferent?

Maybe it is more smoke and mirrors and hollow soundbites from Fisher as he stalls for time and keeps FL at bay for another year or two with the scheme of the BPA as the latest "answer" whilst Seppala ploughs on with JR2 to keep her investors off her back and all the while the club sinks lower and lower but I think that CCC should engage in the process and call his bluff.

Jan
I think the discussion has been that people want CCC to take part, but the reason they may not do so is due to JR2. The pro's and con's of that are being discussed, mostly quite sensibly, apart from some that just want to pipe up and insult other posters.

The other discussion is if TF is asking for it, what's the real reason? And what is there to mediate about? It could be cart before the horse, so why not ask him to put plans in place as something to mediate on?

I can see some good in talking, but not much to be honest, not with TF.

 

[shmmeee]

I said nothing about going bust , my point is the total disregard for this football club by the council which started way , way before sisu arrived.
Are you so gullible as to believe ccc have in any way been upfront about anything at all. They saw us as a cash cow and used us as such.
Please remember we had a buy back clause which as it turns out wasn't worth jack shit with ccc holding a veto.
This is pure spite and has been since the day we moved.
I despise sisu , but ccc , wasps and this city of rugby Bollocks is up there with them.
The irony is that initially the council didn't even want a stadium.

Yeah huge chunks of this are just way way off the mark. Like most of it. Trust me.

 

[hutch1972]

Yeah huge chunks of this are just way way off the mark. Like most of it. Trust me.

Which chunks ?