Rent (6 Viewers)

[superskyblue]

Watched a bit of the Gloucester game late last night, and even though they are mid table,still looked a huge crowd. So even if Wasps were to drop down to mid table in the future, it seems a lot of Rugby fans will still turn up, as much for the social side, as the game.

To be fair Gloucester have particularly loyal and hardcore fans. You're better off looking at London Irish for the equivalent of a team who play in a football stadium outside of their actual home. They were relegated last year to the second tier and look set to bounce back at the first attempt. Their average attendance this year is around 4k.

 

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[Moff]

Unfortunately just lately I have developed a bit of a morbid fascination re Wasps,and on Saturday I watched about 15 minutes of their game on my laptop . A few observations, firstly they had a camera in the away end,and the Ricoh looks mightily impressive when full. its just a shame its full of them buggers. Secondly with no segregation they can fill the whole ground,unlike us who could never have that luxury. The whole top tier of the main stand seemed packed so god knows how much they taken in hospitality, it is clear many people see Rugby as a huge social occasion as well. Add in the fact that half the ground seem to have a beer in hand whilst watching, and they have brought in electronic pitch side advertising you see at Premiership grounds. With being on BT sports god knows what they took,but it can't be far short of a million.
With them winning they now have what is effectively a bonus fixture against Leicester,again at home. A guy I play cricket with who goes regularly has already bought his ticket, for from memory about £36. No doubt this game will be a sellout,again probably generating them a bonus million.
Some people cling to the hope they are struggling financially, but if they are not making it pay when they are top,then they would never make it pay. Watched a bit of the Gloucester game late last night, and even though they are mid table,still looked a huge crowd. So even if Wasps were to drop down to mid table in the future, it seems a lot of Rugby fans will still turn up, as much for the social side, as the game.
The sickening thing is the realisation we have lost our ground and we have lost it for good, that will be Joy's and Tim's lasting epitaph .

I don't cling to the hope they are struggling Houdi, although would be happy to see the back of them.

I know the game a bit as have been a long standing Northampton Saints fan, and from my observations I can see a few things.

One they need us at the stadium as it helps their finances whether it be a little or a lot. It may also help with a new sponsor as its double the air time for coverage.

Two they still give away a proportion of free tickets. They are trying to build a fanbase and I can understand why, but their 'full houses' are never really that.

Three, they are only signing one of the two potential 'Marquee' players they can next year. These are players that are outside the salary cap and they can pay whatever they wish. Part of this is financial, part of it having one of these players being injured most the year and looking at the risk and they feel its not worth it.

Four, Rugby teams are struggling to match the financial clout of the French teams, and the outgoing Northampton Saints Chairman this week stated that Rugby Wages are spiralling out of control. All the top teams are having to tighten their belts in other areas, especially so that they can compete with the free spending French, who spend a fortune on wages.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I don't cling to the hope they are struggling Houdi, although would be happy to see the back of them.

I know the game a bit as have been a long standing Northampton Saints fan, and from my observations I can see a few things.

One they need us at the stadium as it helps their finances whether it be a little or a lot. It may also help with a new sponsor as its double the air time for coverage.

Two they still give away a proportion of free tickets. They are trying to build a fanbase and I can understand why, but their 'full houses' are never really that.

Three, they are only signing one of the two potential 'Marquee' players they can next year. These are players that are outside the salary cap and they can pay whatever they wish. Part of this is financial, part of it having one of these players being injured most the year and looking at the risk and they feel its not worth it.

Four, Rugby teams are struggling to match the financial clout of the French teams, and the outgoing Northampton Saints Chairman this week stated that Rugby Wages are spiralling out of control. All the top teams are having to tighten their belts in other areas, especially so that they can compete with the free spending French, who spend a fortune on wages.

How many of the top rugby teams have £30m + debt?

 

[Moff]

How many of the top rugby teams have £30m + debt?

Not sure, cant imagine many if any. The only one who may have some is Saracens who built their own stadium to move back to London to their original heartlands. They obviously had more regard for their fans than the lure of money. It will be interesting to see whether they just keep churning out Bond scheme after bond scheme when they are due to be paid.

 

[Houdi]

I don't cling to the hope they are struggling Houdi, although would be happy to see the back of them.

I know the game a bit as have been a long standing Northampton Saints fan, and from my observations I can see a few things.

One they need us at the stadium as it helps their finances whether it be a little or a lot. It may also help with a new sponsor as its double the air time for coverage.

Two they still give away a proportion of free tickets. They are trying to build a fanbase and I can understand why, but their 'full houses' are never really that.

Three, they are only signing one of the two potential 'Marquee' players they can next year. These are players that are outside the salary cap and they can pay whatever they wish. Part of this is financial, part of it having one of these players being injured most the year and looking at the risk and they feel its not worth it.

Four, Rugby teams are struggling to match the financial clout of the French teams, and the outgoing Northampton Saints Chairman this week stated that Rugby Wages are spiralling out of control. All the top teams are having to tighten their belts in other areas, especially so that they can compete with the free spending French, who spend a fortune on wages.

Well you probably know more than me, as my rugby support is for Coventry Rugby,further down the pyramid. My worry is that seemingly a lot of our fans,still cling to the vain hope that Wasps will go under, and unfortunately (well for us) they seem to be building a solid fan base, and with this 'bonus' home game,which they couldn't have budgeted for,means their financial fortunes will have been given a huge cash boost.
We currently give them circa £100,000 p.a., they probably will make more than that in beer sales from Saturday's game. I don't know but I doubt if they will giving free tickets away for the Leicester game. Plus even if they have given free tickets away in the past, how much will these people spend on food,drinks, car parking etc and as Fisher always tells us, its the secondary spend we need to survive.

 

[Moff]

Well you probably know more than me, as my rugby support is for Coventry Rugby,further down the pyramid. My worry is that seemingly a lot of our fans,still cling to the vain hope that Wasps will go under, and unfortunately (well for us) they seem to be building a solid fan base, and with this 'bonus' home game,which they couldn't have budgeted for,means their financial fortunes will have been given a huge cash boost.
We currently give them circa £100,000 p.a., they probably will make more than that in beer sales from Saturday's game. I don't know but I doubt if they will giving free tickets away for the Leicester game. Plus even if they have given free tickets away in the past, how much will these people spend on food,drinks, car parking etc and as Fisher always tells us, its the secondary spend we need to survive.

All fair points Houdi. Its sickening to see how badly we have failed.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well you probably know more than me, as my rugby support is for Coventry Rugby,further down the pyramid. My worry is that seemingly a lot of our fans,still cling to the vain hope that Wasps will go under, and unfortunately (well for us) they seem to be building a solid fan base, and with this 'bonus' home game,which they couldn't have budgeted for,means their financial fortunes will have been given a huge cash boost.
We currently give them circa £100,000 p.a., they probably will make more than that in beer sales from Saturday's game. I don't know but I doubt if they will giving free tickets away for the Leicester game. Plus even if they have given free tickets away in the past, how much will these people spend on food,drinks, car parking etc and as Fisher always tells us, its the secondary spend we need to survive.

We won't be able to say clearly if they've built any kind of fanbase for a good 5-6 years... at least. Probably more, in fact. I can tell you the theory would certainly support that they haven't, and won't, for a substantial period of time, as to embed the club (and, more, going) into peoples' consciousness is not a quick task. So at the moment fans will be a lot more elastic in their support, or otherwise.

To compare to Gloucester is comparing apples with pears, as Gloucester are a club blessed with a strong and committed support... which comes as much from the heritage of the club, which the club is keen to build upon, and to record and archive. Furthermore, they were playing a fellow south-west team with something to play for, so it was no ordinary game, anyway.

The great Wasps experiment *might* work... but it could well fail, too. We're not in a position to know that, yet.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

In simplistic terms we need what we generate to even come close to putting us on a viable standing. Once we've got that sorted we can look to generate non-matchday revenues.

Also important to ensure there are break clauses as we don't want SISU here forever and don't want potential new owners to be put off by a deal Fisher has agreed to.

No we don't.
Get a good rent deal you don't need anything.
Howuch matchday revenue do people think we can make from pies and beer?
90 % of supporters spend nothing in the arena.
I buy a pie or drink about twice a season.
Only if I have gone straight from work.
There a couple of quid in the pot.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Howuch matchday revenue do people think we can make from pies and beer?

Hence, probably, why Fisher said our current deal was alright while in the bottom two divisions.

of course, if the amount able to be made is insignificant, then it'd surely be easy to negotiate a deal that got us all the net profit for such things...

 

[Houdi]

All fair points Houdi. Its sickening to see how badly we have failed.

Your telling me, just found it so depressing Saturday,seeing what should have been our ground looking full,with a vibrant atmosphere,realising just how far we have now fallen. With Wasps doing so well, it just is rubbing salt into our wounds. Our fans with understandable reason don't wish to be seen praising Wasps at all, but the sad fact is they seem to be doing everything right,everything seems to be falling for them, and we aside from Wembley seem to stagger from 1 crisis to another.
For them to be getting 30,000 plus crowds,in 2 successive games, is both unbelievable and sickening at the same time. The very real threat is next season they could be averaging maybe 4 times bigger crowds than us, who would have believed that even remotely possible when they first arrived.

 

[Ashdown]

It makes sense for both clubs to use the Ricoh, it makes total sense to City if they can get a cheap rent deal and Wasps need the Sky Blue footfall and extra exposure. Rugby fans spend a lot more in the stadium than football fans because of the laws regarding booze but lets be honest there are always plenty of people queuing up to buy at the kiosks at the City matches. The only fookers who could scupper this obvious extension are the single minded litigious twats who still think they stand to gain more in the court room than building a football club. This may indeed be correct but a SISU victory would never benefit the club itself, they would just take their money and run.
In short if Wasps want to talk then we shall be back at the Ricoh for sure. I just wish that the court cases could be fast forwarded and concluded !

 

[chiefdave]

90 % of supporters spend nothing in the arena.

But that's not all we generate. What about naming rights, what about advertising (do you think we get paid for all those Wasps adverts around the pitch?). what about the advertising sites in the concourse (again do you think we get paid for all the Wasps adverts down there?).

 

[skybluetony176]

How many of the top rugby teams have £30m + debt?

Don't Saracens have £ 45+M?

 

[wingy]

Don't Saracens have £ 45+M?

They probably do Tony
But it's likely at a more serviceable level than Wasps appear to have undertaken.
I'd be interested to understand their reasoning behind the approach to the type of finance they've undertaken.
Quite a responsibility over a very short window.

 

[peeler]

Don't Saracens have £ 45+M?

dead right: Saracens debt grows to £45.1m after £3.98m annual loss

 

[Astute]

Reads to me more as Wasps wanted to appear blameless should we end up out of the city again.

In my opinion they are blameless[/QUOTE]
How can they be blameless? They knew the situation and took advantage of it. And they have been holding us to ransom. I don't agree with all this JR crap but it's nothing to do with them what SISU do with it.

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Obvious move from Wasps. Any club would want to maximise the use of their stadium to generate revenue, hence Wasps Netball & talking to Rugby League.

 

[Grendel]

dead right: Saracens debt grows to £45.1m after £3.98m annual loss

About the same as Wasps then

 

[covcity4life]

maybe if they keep losing money one day we will get ricoh back lol

 

[RegTheDonk]

Could it be Wasps positioning themselves so they cannot be blamed for ejecting CCFC from the Ricoh if the worst came to the worst.
It puts the ball very much in SISU's court, puts pressure on them. Interesting if GH already has a verbal deal with Wasps should he takes over

Yes, and the real positive thing IMHO Rog is that Fisher's chums at the Football League can hardly sanction a move away from the City if he can't even pick the phone up and talk to WASPs. Lets hope Mr Lenagan shows a bit more balls than Clarke and won't roll over for a Timmy Tummy Tickle.

 

[skybluetony176]

They probably do Tony
But it's likely at a more serviceable level than Wasps appear to have undertaken.
I'd be interested to understand their reasoning behind the approach to the type of finance they've undertaken.
Quite a responsibility over a very short window.

Don't think Saracens have an asset though, like the Ricoh to balance it of against.

 

[duffer]

Unfortunately just lately I have developed a bit of a morbid fascination re Wasps,and on Saturday I watched about 15 minutes of their game on my laptop . A few observations, firstly they had a camera in the away end,and the Ricoh looks mightily impressive when full. its just a shame its full of them buggers. Secondly with no segregation they can fill the whole ground,unlike us who could never have that luxury. The whole top tier of the main stand seemed packed so god knows how much they taken in hospitality, it is clear many people see Rugby as a huge social occasion as well. Add in the fact that half the ground seem to have a beer in hand whilst watching, and they have brought in electronic pitch side advertising you see at Premiership grounds. With being on BT sports god knows what they took,but it can't be far short of a million.
With them winning they now have what is effectively a bonus fixture against Leicester,again at home. A guy I play cricket with who goes regularly has already bought his ticket, for from memory about £36. No doubt this game will be a sellout,again probably generating them a bonus million.
Some people cling to the hope they are struggling financially, but if they are not making it pay when they are top,then they would never make it pay. Watched a bit of the Gloucester game late last night, and even though they are mid table,still looked a huge crowd. So even if Wasps were to drop down to mid table in the future, it seems a lot of Rugby fans will still turn up, as much for the social side, as the game.
The sickening thing is the realisation we have lost our ground and we have lost it for good, that will be Joy's and Tim's lasting epitaph .

A few observations of my own, if I may. I've developed a morbid fascination with Wasps too, undoubtedly.

The Ricoh wasn't actually full on Saturday, just over 30,000 as I recall. Not bad at all, but not full. When you bear in mind what was riding on the game, finishing top of the top division, then actually this might be a little disappointing. It'll be full when Leicester bring their fans for the play-off I suspect, but it's perhaps telling that Wasps even when playing such a critical game still couldn't actually fill the Ricoh.

To clarify further, Wasps aren't making a million pounds profit per game - and they've actually made a £3.8m operating loss in the last season. And they've still got that £35m bond to pay interest on and then pay back in full. Plus this is pretty much peak-Wasps, their best season ever. Anyone who thinks there isn't risk in their model or that they're making a million per game hasn't quite understood rugby or finance, I'd say.

If Wasps drop down to midtable then they're likely to get middling attendances, as we've seen. Their average this season (before Saturday), when they've been pretty much unbeaten, has been 18.000 with a lowest of 12,000. Rugby fans can be just as fickle as footy fans, and possibly even more so given the lack of history for Wasps in Coventry. So don't assume that people will just turn up if they're struggling. By way of comparison you mentioned Gloucester - they have been at their ground for almost 120 years and are only a few hundred off Wasps' average attendendance but with a ground literally half the size. Rugby is a religion to many around that town, there's no comparison with Wasps in Coventry.

Last but not least, it was council that sold the Ricoh to Wasps. Joy and Tim might have driven the club into the ground, but it was the council and Higgs that chose to sell the Ricoh to Wasps. That epitaph needs to go on more than one gravestone, imho.

 

[Houdi]

A few observations of my own, if I may. I've developed a morbid fascination with Wasps too, undoubtedly.

The Ricoh wasn't actually full on Saturday, just over 30,000 as I recall. Not bad at all, but not full. When you bear in mind what was riding on the game, finishing top of the top division, then actually this might be a little disappointing. It'll be full when Leicester bring their fans for the play-off I suspect, but it's perhaps telling that Wasps even when playing such a critical game still couldn't actually fill the Ricoh.

To clarify further, Wasps aren't making a million pounds profit per game - and they've actually made a £3.8m operating loss in the last season. And they've still got that £35m bond to pay interest on and then pay back in full. Plus this is pretty much peak-Wasps, their best season ever. Anyone who thinks there isn't risk in their model or that they're making a million per game hasn't quite understood rugby or finance, I'd say.

If Wasps drop down to midtable then they're likely to get middling attendances, as we've seen. Their average this season (before Saturday), when they've been pretty much unbeaten, has been 18.000 with a lowest of 12,000. Rugby fans can be just as fickle as footy fans, and possibly even more so given the lack of history for Wasps in Coventry. So don't assume that people will just turn up if they're struggling. By way of comparison you mentioned Gloucester - they have been at their ground for almost 120 years and are only a few hundred off Wasps' average attendendance but with a ground literally half the size. Rugby is a religion to many around that town, there's no comparison with Wasps in Coventry.

Last but not least, it was council that sold the Ricoh to Wasps. Joy and Tim might have driven the club into the ground, but it was the council and Higgs that chose to sell the Ricoh to Wasps. That epitaph needs to go on more than one gravestone, imho.

Some fair points there, but for a club that's only been here just over 2 years to get crowds over 30,000 is pretty impressive, or maybe worrying is a better word. It doesn't appear that they will be struggling team wise in the near future, so probably they are going to be a successful for years to come. As each year goes by, they will inevitably become more embedded in the community. Looking at the pictures on Saturday there looked to be a lot of young fans there, and for them they will just see them as a Coventry team.
Everybody I've spoken to who has gone to a game,and I hate to say this ,all talk of an enjoyable match day experience,some of these are CCFC fans as well.
I'm not sure of their match prices but if the £36 adult price is right for their next game,and they sell near 33,000 tickets,and you add on TV broadcasting, huge corporate sales, food sales, beer sales car parking sales, perimeter advertising sales, merchandising sales,programme? sales,that will a huge profit for them. They are guaranteed huge crowds each season from games against Leicester/Northampton and probably even Worcester.
Oh and yes agreed CCC are not innocent in our current mess. Just feel we are sleepwalking to an irrelevance,if the current situation carries on much longer, and our owners simply couldn't care less.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

if the £36 adult price is right for their next game,and they sell near 33,000 tickets

They aren't selling them all, though.

 

[Houdi]

They aren't selling them all, though.

Well I've just had a look on their website,and whether we believe them or not, they are reporting unprecedented traffic at their ticket office,in store and over the phone. It appears season ticket holders have to pay as well, so I very much doubt whether they will be giving many free tickets away.
Again this maybe hype, and they may only employ 1 old lady in the ticket office, but somehow i rather doubt it. I presume Leicester fans will get their tickets the same way,and that unlike football tickets aren't sent to the away team.

 

[wingy]

Don't think Saracens have an asset though, like the Ricoh to balance it of against.

No but do they outright own it rather than a company with a lease?
Does that determine the type of finance employed or are other factors the reason?

 

[skybluetony176]

No but do they outright own it rather than a company with a lease?
Does that determine the type of finance employed or are other factors the reason?

I think the local council own the Allianz stadium don't they? Not sure what the arrangement is but there's also regular athletic meeting's there as well as the local swimming baths and sports centre.

Pretty sure their position is much worse than Wasps.

 

[wingy]

I think the local council own the Allianz stadium don't they? Not sure what the arrangement is but there's also regular athletic meeting's there as well as the local swimming baths and sports centre.

Pretty sure their position is much worse than Wasps.

Ok Tony.
Had no Idea what their set up was like.
With regards to another's comment re the French teams pay structures that is because of the TV deal over there, which from memory is state run and was around double the British one prior to last year.
Some French Club Presidents /Owners have been expressing concerns of an Implosion due to the the level player salaries are rising.
Re the comments around Gloucester they appear very well run and when looking into their model a couple of years back were turning over around the equivalent of £1M per thousand fans inclusive of all business as a rule.
Wasps would appear to be doing roughly the same numbers.

 

[Ashdown]

Whilst Wasps have their own home { puke }, compete in the Prem of English rugby and can command on going revenue streams as they do now, then they will always be able to call on lenders to keep them ticking along. Sadly they're not going anywhere and I agree with Houdi, they are strengthening if anything. It would be wishful thinking as a Cov rugby supporter { Like me } to think otherwise. CCFC need to do a deal with Wasps and play football at a stadium they can grow into in the future. If super rich owners came along, maybe Wasps would sell half the Ricoh and split all costs ?? but forget all this Timmy talk about new stadiums bollocks and having a future elsewhere. The man is a proven liar and will stick to the mantra from his paymasters, as they keep their eyes firmly on the prize of compensation from a court victory.

 

[ccfcway]

Unfortunately just lately I have developed a bit of a morbid fascination re Wasps,and on Saturday I watched about 15 minutes of their game on my laptop . A few observations, firstly they had a camera in the away end,and the Ricoh looks mightily impressive when full. its just a shame its full of them buggers. Secondly with no segregation they can fill the whole ground,unlike us who could never have that luxury. The whole top tier of the main stand seemed packed so god knows how much they taken in hospitality, it is clear many people see Rugby as a huge social occasion as well. Add in the fact that half the ground seem to have a beer in hand whilst watching, and they have brought in electronic pitch side advertising you see at Premiership grounds. With being on BT sports god knows what they took,but it can't be far short of a million.
With them winning they now have what is effectively a bonus fixture against Leicester,again at home. A guy I play cricket with who goes regularly has already bought his ticket, for from memory about £36. No doubt this game will be a sellout,again probably generating them a bonus million.
Some people cling to the hope they are struggling financially, but if they are not making it pay when they are top,then they would never make it pay. Watched a bit of the Gloucester game late last night, and even though they are mid table,still looked a huge crowd. So even if Wasps were to drop down to mid table in the future, it seems a lot of Rugby fans will still turn up, as much for the social side, as the game.
The sickening thing is the realisation we have lost our ground and we have lost it for good, that will be Joy's and Tim's lasting epitaph .

not been and wont go to a wasps game, but 2 comments on this. Kids will see Wasps as a Coventry team and will be their fans for the future. Also, went to a couple of the England 6 nations games this season and the atmosphere is great. Sitting next to fans of the other team and enjoying a beer. I completely get the "occasion" comments.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

I will never understand wasps for not buying ccfc with its fan base.

Would be awful for CCFC. Going from being owned by a shite hedge fund to another hedge fund who owe £35m to bond holders, is not a great move (not that you were suggesting it).

Anyway, good thing about that article is that they're not changing the seats any time soon.

Now that would fook me right off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[italiahorse]

Would be awful for CCFC. Going from being owned by a shite hedge fund to another hedge fund who owe £35m to bond holders, is not a great move (not that you were suggesting it).

Anyway, good thing about that article is that they're not changing the seats any time soon.

Now that would fook me right off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You alright hun ?

 

[dongonzalos]

Read the quotes and I'm not sure I share the confidence of some on here.

Why would they have heard anything from the club? It was left with them refusing to speak to the club so unless they had informed the club of a change in their stance they aren't likely to be contacted.

Willing to talk and listen is a million miles from being ready to do a deal. Anderson managed to get well into negotiations before Wasps walked away.

Reads to me more as Wasps wanted to appear blameless should we end up out of the city again.

Yet Gary Hoffman wasn't concerned that he wouldn't be able to strike a deal with them when he was bidding for the club?
If the statement was just about not getting blame. Could they not have just carried on as things were. Most people thought it was reasonable not to get involved in a new long term deal with SISU, whilst SISU were dragging them into legal action.
I get the impression it just Eastwood has a different ideas.
Although I have to admit it is bizarre to say the club haven't been in touch yet. Unless they have already let the club know they are ready to talk.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

You alright hun ?

Rubbish/overused comeback to a factually correct statement.

Fine thanks though princess x


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[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

In my opinion they are blameless

How can they be blameless? They knew the situation and took advantage of it. And they have been holding us to ransom. I don't agree with all this JR crap but it's nothing to do with them what SISU do with it.[/QUOTE]
Holding us to ransom I think not boot and foot come to mind and to true they took advantage they seen an opportunity after all we had "Moved on" and the council wanted a buyer of a stadium just think of the outcry if no deal had been done even that deal was deemed too much by the moved on merchants.