The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (39 Viewers)

[Astute]

Can you show any evidence of food prices dropping? Would you be happy at the prospect of dropping food standards to accommodate the USA's succulent chlorine washed chicken and the knock on effect it would have on our standards here?

https://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-cap/

 

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[Astute]

I'd say that overall there are more Leave voters who dip into the thread, but with a hardcore/saddo 50/50 remain leave split of regular posters.

Yes the split is about the same. But what is spoken about never changes. It is all about the bad that will come from leaving although it is all guesswork at the moment. It is about thick leave voters. It is about defending those in the EU whilst at the same time attacking anyone who has anything to do with leaving. Or going for those who avoid tax if they are pro leaving but defending anyone who us pro EU.

 

[Sick Boy]

https://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-cap/

How is this going to reduce costs for consumers here while improving income for British farmers? Do you support a reduction in current food standards to bring in cheaper produce?

One upshot of Brexit for me is that consumers are likely going to have to adjust their expectations of what is available and opt for seasonal produce, which always seems to taste better to me. Also, same goes for fish in British waters.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes the split is about the same. But what is spoken about never changes. It is all about the bad that will come from leaving although it is all guesswork at the moment. It is about thick leave voters. It is about defending those in the EU whilst at the same time attacking anyone who has anything to do with leaving. Or going for those who avoid tax if they are pro leaving but defending anyone who us pro EU.

I agree we have gone round in circles for months if not years. There are also pro Brexit posts and people saying hoe leave will be good. I haven't seen anyone describe leave voters as thick either.

 

[Astute]

Laws or rules covering light bulbs are to do with trading goods and product efficiency and safety. Most are trade, workers rights, product safety, intellectual property, financial systems.

We make the laws directly to do with our lives, such as what sentences criminals get. Are you really leaving because of light bulbs in vacuum cleaners? How do the other 27 survive? It is not an issue in the German media.

Your Tory leaver paper link quotes trade laws. The auction houses having to pay copyright to the artist fees being an example. China ignoring the artist‘s intellectual property is well known.

All other EU countries have to follow the same rules as us. How on earth is Germany able to survive and we cannot? The Tory poses the question if the EU is trying to do destroy us by curbing the finance industry or protecting intellectual property and consumers. That’s it. He posed a question, no facts. At least the EU is trying to protect us and make the finance industry pay and accept regulations after the disaster it caused, which we bailed out as workers and small traders.

The transaction charge on banks was called for following the crash when people were even more annoyed than you about Juncker. The banks and finance industry, which this Tory Brexiteer is showing as potential victims, got away with murder and the people speculating were not paying into the bailing out of the finance sector caused by their actions. The transition fee was to at least make them pay something. We pay taxes when we work. The thinking behind it wasn’t evil.

The EU is angry about the appointment in March, but there are more important things and it will not break up because of Juncker. More important is dealing with Trump and Brexit.

Your Tory leave paper is angry. I don’t care. Fair play to the EU, if those people are moaning about the regulations protecting us, the EU must be doing something right.

Here you go again. Are you OK with leaving because of this and are you OK with leaving because of that.

I am not OK with leaving. When will you get that into that space in between your ears? How many times have you said because of certain reasons? Yes lots of times.

But I am also not going to sit by and just read your pro EU propaganda.

I would be happy for us to stay in the EU. But it needs to reform. And I can't see it happening. There are so many things wrong with it. I am not going to sit like a nodding dog and say remain at all cost. And the same to leaving.

 

[Sick Boy]

Here you go again. Are you OK with leaving because of this and are you OK with leaving because of that.

I am not OK with leaving. When will you get that into that space in between your ears? How many times have you said because of certain reasons? Yes lots of times.

But I am also not going to sit by and just read your pro EU propaganda.

I would be happy for us to stay in the EU. But it needs to reform. And I can't see it happening. There are so many things wrong with it. I am not going to sit like a nodding dog and say remain at all cost. And the same to leaving.

What are your red flags for leaving, out of interest?

 

[Astute]

How is this going to reduce costs for consumers here while improving income for British farmers? Do you support a reduction in current food standards to bring in cheaper produce?

One upshot of Brexit for me is that consumers are likely going to have to adjust their expectations of what is available and opt for seasonal produce, which always seems to taste better to me. Also, same goes for fish in British waters.

Our standards are better than most EU countries. So why would they reduce after Brexit? Prices have a minimum price fix. Imports get taxed to take them over this. We import a lot of our food.

The same goes for fish from British waters? What do you mean by this?

 

[Astute]

I agree we have gone round in circles for months if not years. There are also pro Brexit posts and people saying hoe leave will be good. I haven't seen anyone describe leave voters as thick either.

I see Mart agrees with you. But ask him if He has said it himself. And many times.

As I have constantly said there is good about leaving and good about remaining. And nobody knows what is best medium term. Long term yes leaving looks the best. But is it worth what happens up to then?

 

[Sick Boy]

Our standards are better than most EU countries. So why would they reduce after Brexit? Prices have a minimum price fix. Imports get taxed to take them over this. We import a lot of our food.

The same goes for fish from British waters? What do you mean by this?

Most fish caught in British waters is exported the other EU countries and we import fish from elsewhere due to British tastes.

 

[Astute]

What are your red flags for leaving, out of interest?

Energy supplies is a big one for me. We are not self sufficient. OK the lights won't go out. But it is a point hardly spoken about.

Nuclear power. There could well be problems there.

The biggest problem is that we have become tangled into EU bureaucracy. The list is endless. We look after most of it ourself. But officially we follow EU rules and regulations. We would have to sort out our own rules and regulations. How long will it take?

 

[Astute]

Most fish caught in British waters is exported the other EU countries and we import fish from elsewhere due to British tastes.

Yes. But most fish caught in British water isn't caught by UK fishermen. We are not allowed to catch it all. It is the EU that would easily suffer the most.

That is why they want to cherry pick our fishing water as part of any deal that is done.

 

[martcov]

Here you go again. Are you OK with leaving because of this and are you OK with leaving because of that.

I am not OK with leaving. When will you get that into that space in between your ears? How many times have you said because of certain reasons? Yes lots of times.

But I am also not going to sit by and just read your pro EU propaganda.

I would be happy for us to stay in the EU. But it needs to reform. And I can't see it happening. There are so many things wrong with it. I am not going to sit like a nodding dog and say remain at all cost. And the same to leaving.

How do you propose reforming anything when you are not in it?

 

[Astute]

How do you propose reforming anything when you are not in it?

The same way as reforming it when we are in it.

We can't.

 

[skybluetony176]

I don’t get the light bulb and vacuum cleaner argument. Surely bringing in law to force a reduction in energy consumption and therefore generation and therefore reduce greenhouse gases and carbon emissions is sensible and therefore should be applauded not condemned. Any argument against that just highlights peoples ignorance of global warming and the causes of it. It’s things like this that the EU should be enforcing but it seems like it’s getting lumped in with the they took away our blue passport mentality.

 

[martcov]

Energy supplies is a big one for me. We are not self sufficient. OK the lights won't go out. But it is a point hardly spoken about.

Nuclear power. There could well be problems there.

The biggest problem is that we have become tangled into EU bureaucracy. The list is endless. We look after most of it ourself. But officially we follow EU rules and regulations. We would have to sort out our own rules and regulations. How long will it take?

Do you think our rules on nuclear safety will be laxer and cheaper to enforce? Do you think doing away with pesky regulations is good for the general public?

The same way as reforming it when we are in it.

We can't.

Well, you know that isn’t true. Maggie Thatcher and co were influential in forming the CU and SM, the greatest achievements. We have had some say, but don’t control the EU. Plus even your Tory Telegraph person said we were allowed to continue without the financial transfer fee as another example of us getting exceptions. Now you will say, Cameron asked and that was it. He got some concessions, but they insisted on everyone sticking to the 4 freedoms, essential in a truly free market. Everyone else accepts the basis of the 4 freedoms, but we are, as usual in your world the poor victims.

Here the latest EU unemployment figures. You will pleased to see that former Eastbloc countries such as Poland have better figures than we do.

I suspect that the number of EU migrants will start declining as these countries start having to pay higher wages and there is the possibility of the pound weakening should all not go well with Brexit. If May pulls off a deal in her holidays, which could be her plan, then, of course the pound will hold up and the EU citizens will stay a bit longer.

EDIT. The symbols haven’t come through. The average is 6,9% and we are 4,1 %.

The Czech Republic and Poland are lower than ours and Romania is around 6%. Italy, Spain and Greece are at the bottom.

Neueste Arbeitslosenquote von @EU_Eurostat:
6,9%

2,4
3,4
3,6
3,7
3,9
3,9
4,1
4,5
4,7
4,8
4,9
5,0
5,1
5,2
5,6
6,0
6,2
6,7
6,8
6,9
7,4
7,6
8,2
9,2
9,2
10,9
15,2
20,2

 

[Astute]

I don’t get the light bulb and vacuum cleaner argument. Surely bringing in law to force a reduction in energy consumption and therefore generation and therefore reduce greenhouse gases and carbon emissions is sensible and therefore should be applauded not condemned. Any argument against that just highlights peoples ignorance of global warming and the causes of it. It’s things like this that the EU should be enforcing but it seems like it’s getting lumped in with the they took away our blue passport mentality.

You won't get the lightbulb or vacuum cleaner argument.

It was a point being made about rules just not about exporting and importing as was said by Mart.

And a lot of this energy saving to save the planet is a joke. What is the cost to the environment on building an electric car with batteries? How many years does it take to make up for the pollutants from a car already built that it will replace? Or one with a new efficient engine? And that is without where the electric is produced.

Yes wind farms are good. But how much power and pollution is made while producing them?

Pollution on a disastrous scale - Environmental Cost of Wind Turbine Manufacturing

But a pat on the back for the headlines I suppose. Green energy after all.......

 

[Astute]

Do you think our rules on nuclear safety will b


Well, you know that isn’t true. Maggie Thatcher and co were influential in forming the CU and SM, the greatest achievements. We have had some say, but don’t control the EU. Plus even your Tory Telegraph person said we were allowed to continue without the financial transfer fee as another example of us getting exceptions. Now you will say, Cameron asked and that was it. He got some concessions, but they insisted on everyone sticking to the 4 freedoms, essential in a truly free market. Everyone else accepts the basis of the 4 freedoms, but we are, as usual in your world the poor victims.

Here the latest EU unemployment figures. You will pleased to see that former Eastbloc countries such as Poland have better figures than we do.

I suspect that the number of EU migrants will start declining as these countries start having to pay higher wages and there is the possibility of the pound weakening should all not go well with Brexit. If May pulls off a deal in her holidays, which could be her plan, then, of course the pound will hold up and the EU citizens will stay a bit longer.

EDIT. The symbols haven’t come through. The average is 6,9% and we are 4,1 %.

The Czech Republic and Poland are lower than ours and Romania is around 6%. Italy, Spain and Greece are at the bottom.

Neueste Arbeitslosenquote von @EU_Eurostat:
6,9%

2,4
3,4
3,6
3,7
3,9
3,9
4,1
4,5
4,7
4,8
4,9
5,0
5,1
5,2
5,6
6,0
6,2
6,7
6,8
6,9
7,4
7,6
8,2
9,2
9,2
10,9
15,2
20,2

Things have changed since the days of Maggie.

Now the EU does as it wants. And it even breaks rules to do so.

 

[Astute]

Do you think our rules on nuclear safety will be laxer and cheaper to enforce? Do you think doing away with pesky regulations is good for the general public?

So now you have finished editing your post I will let you know you are talking rubbish yet again.

So what do you know that I don't? Considering I know a lot of people that work in the industry and you are after point scoring. Safety is above the minimum set. So why would it change?

Oh yes. Because Mart says.

 

[martcov]

I see Mart agrees with you. But ask him if He has said it himself. And many times.

As I have constantly said there is good about leaving and good about remaining. And nobody knows what is best medium term. Long term yes leaving looks the best. But is it worth what happens up to then?

No, I haven’t. Maybe they have been led up the garden path, sold something without a money back guarantee. Yes, but that is not saying that they are thick.

They have been given their information by a campaign sponsored by an unelected dodgy businessman who grew up in Africa and has shares in diamond there mines and has given African politicians financial assistance whilst waiting for their approval of mining licences for his mines. There is also a big question mark about the source of this sponsorship money as he conveniently forgot to mention 12 meetings with Russian officials, and the money he was supposedly asking from them for investment in mines, didn’t turn up in the mining company.

The best selling newspapers in Britain follow the line of their unelected old men owners and wind people up against the EU on their behalf. Angry sells, and they get their interests represented in millions of homes.

I won’t even mention Bannon’s contributions in the background since 2014 ( according to him ). Suffice it to say that he is now claiming people like Tommy Robinson are the backbone of the country. The guy, who amongst other things, was done for trying to enter the USA with a false passport. A would be illegal immigrant. Haha.

With all this going on in the background and modern “influencing” techniques being professionally applied to sway the “don’t knows’ or to make the convinced leavers angry enough to get out and vote, you cannot just say, “oh well, leave voters are thick”. And I never have. Some will be, but that is not surprising when 17,4 million people vote. The same will be true of remain.

 

[martcov]

I see Mart agrees with you. But ask him if He has said it himself. And many times.

As I have constantly said there is good about leaving and good about remaining. And nobody knows what is best medium term. Long term yes leaving looks the best. But is it worth what happens up to then?

No, I haven’t. Maybe they have been led up the garden path, sold something without a money back guarantee. Yes, but that is not saying that they are thick.

They have been given their information by a campaign sponsored by an unelected dodgy businessman who grew up in Africa and has shares in diamond there mines and has given African politicians financial assistance whilst waiting for their approval of mining licences for his mines. There is also a big question mark about the source of this sponsorship money as he conveniently forgot to mention 12 meetings with Russian officials, and the money he was supposedly asking from them for investment in mines, didn’t turn up in the mining company.

The best selling newspapers in Britain follow the line of their unelected old men owners and wind people up against the EU on their behalf. Angry sells, and they get their interests represented in millions of homes.

I won’t even mention Bannon’s contributions in the background since 2014 ( according to him ). Suffice it to say that he is now claiming people like Tommy Robinson are the backbone of the country. The guy, who amongst other things, was done for trying to enter the USA with a false passport. A would be illegal immigrant. Haha.

With all this going on in the background and modern “influencing” techniques being professionally applied to sway the “don’t knows’ or to make the convinced leavers angry enough to get out and vote, you cannot just say, “oh well, leave voters are thick”. And I never have. Some will be, but that is not surprising when 17,4 million people vote. The same will be true of remain.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

There you go again Mart. What MIGHT happen is a true fact to you. Just shows how biased you are. And proves my point that comments made by people like you (mainly you) is what this thread is all about. Trying to show that most of what you say isn't true or only might happen.

So EU laws are only to do with trade? Wrong. They even cover what light bulbs can be used or that vacuum cleaners must be of a lower power. But how about those which are to do with trade loosely? And those that are to do with trading cost us billions and restricts trading.

The EU has destroyed some of our most prosperous industries - and will continue to do so

Motorways WILL become a car park? Could and might are the words being used. But to you it becomes a certainty.

And here you go again on making bending of EU rules seem trivial. You say that Juncker should be looked into. But you know he won't. Because he would be the one in charge of looking at what he has done. How about Selmayr? Everyone knows it was also wrong. Juncker helped get him his position. You are one of the rare people who defends it. The EU is in uproar over the matter. But yet again it is down to Juncker to look into it. He refused saying he would prefer to resign. So that can't happen either. But nothing would happen even if they did as it is a job for life. He can't be removed from the job.

Immigration? As usual you make up your own facts. You make out that people say things they haven't. And you twist words and the truth to make out that all is OK. I said that we need to be able to bring in the right skills mix. You say the building trade would suffer. Is that because the builders are really brain surgeons and would leave the building trade? Of course not. So as usual I can't work out any relevance to the point you pretend to make. The right skills mix is just that. Skilled Labour. Not removing it from one place to cover another.

Demonising migrants is another convenient issue...suggesting the EU does away with it is farcical. Rows are brewing or simmering over it in Italy, Austria, Poland, Spain, France, Hungary & Germany...those are the ones I have heard about! But sweep it under the carpet shall we?

Juncker & Selmayr antics...trivial??? How??? They undermine everything to do with the supposed democratic EU ideals. 27 countries had no right to oppose Selmayr's appointment until after the event under the threat of Juncker's resignation. Threats & bullying...seeds of discontent

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Astute]

No, I haven’t. Maybe they have been led up the garden path, sold something without a money back guarantee. Yes, but that is not saying that they are thick.

They have been given their information by a campaign sponsored by an unelected dodgy businessman who grew up in Africa and has shares in diamond there mines and has given African politicians financial assistance whilst waiting for their approval of mining licences for his mines. There is also a big question mark about the source of this sponsorship money as he conveniently forgot to mention 12 meetings with Russian officials, and the money he was supposedly asking from them for investment in mines, didn’t turn up in the mining company.

The best selling newspapers in Britain follow the line of their unelected old men owners and wind people up against the EU on their behalf. Angry sells, and they get their interests represented in millions of homes.

I won’t even mention Bannon’s contributions in the background since 2014 ( according to him ). Suffice it to say that he is now claiming people like Tommy Robinson are the backbone of the country. The guy, who amongst other things, was done for trying to enter the USA with a false passport. A would be illegal immigrant. Haha.

With all this going on in the background and modern “influencing” techniques being professionally applied to sway the “don’t knows’ or to make the convinced leavers angry enough to get out and vote, you cannot just say, “oh well, leave voters are thick”. And I never have. Some will be, but that is not surprising when 17,4 million people vote. The same will be true of remain.

How about your last posts first?

Yes something else to ignore as usual.

So what is your point this time? All fraud and bad things are outside the EU and inside the EU all is well and good?

 

[martcov]

So now you have finished editing your post I will let you know you are talking rubbish yet again.

So what do you know that I don't? Considering I know a lot of people that work in the industry and you are after point scoring. Safety is above the minimum set. So why would it change?

Oh yes. Because Mart says.

No, because you were posting links about EU regulations and said nuclear may be a problem and I asked you whether the rules for nuclear would be laxer with leave, and if you thought laxer regulations are good for the general public as they are probably cheaper. That is not “Mart says”, but “Mart asks”.

You were the one going on about EU regulations. And, I had to edit as I am on a train and half the sentences vanished as the WiFi is not that good.

 

[Astute]

Juncker & Selmayr antics...trivial??? How??? They undermine everything to do with the supposed democratic EU ideals. 27 countries had no right to oppose Selmayr's appointment until after the event under the threat of Juncker's resignation. Threats & bullying...seeds of discontent

Yet we could change the EU if we stayed in

 

[Astute]

No, because you were posting links about EU regulations and said nuclear may be a problem and I asked you whether the rules for nuclear would be laxer with leave, and if you thought laxer regulations are good for the general public as they are probably cheaper. That is not “Mart says”, but “Mart asks”.

You were the one going on about EU regulations. And, I had to edit as I am on a train and half the sentences vanished as the WiFi is not that good.

I was asked a question by SB. I did something you have a problem with sometimes. I answered honestly. Then you changed the point I made. And that was after me saying something that was on the side of staying in the EU.

Typical.

 

[martcov]

Demonising migrants is another convenient issue...suggesting the EU does away with it is farcical. Rows are brewing or simmering over it in Italy, Austria, Poland, Spain, France, Hungary & Germany...those are the ones I have heard about! But sweep it under the carpet shall we?

Juncker & Selmayr antics...trivial??? How??? They undermine everything to do with the supposed democratic EU ideals. 27 countries had no right to oppose Selmayr's appointment until after the event under the threat of Juncker's resignation. Threats & bullying...seeds of discontent

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

They are not demonising EU Christian migrants which is what I meant. To demonise some on colour and some on one religion basis is potentially divisive and very dangerous. No, the EU doesn’t do away with it, but it has anti discrimination laws and is at least trying to keep an open democratic society. The rise of the right is a danger and the last thing Europe needs are people like Bannon, not elected and not EU, and Farage, elected, but leaving the EU, starting campaigns to reverse the efforts to eradicate discrimination by weakening the EU and winding up the population against minorities with their populist rhetoric.

 

[martcov]

How about your last posts first?

Yes something else to ignore as usual.

So what is your point this time? All fraud and bad things are outside the EU and inside the EU all is well and good?

You act

I was asked a question by SB. I did something you have a problem with sometimes. I answered honestly. Then you changed the point I made. And that was after me saying something that was on the side of staying in the EU.

Typical.

Not quite. You covered yourself by saying short term, but long term. Staying in the EU, means that, not short term only. So that was an example of your “honesty”.

 

[Astute]

They are not demonising EU Christian migrants which is what I meant. To demonise some on colour and some on one religion basis is potentially divisive and very dangerous. No, the EU doesn’t do away with it, but it has anti discrimination laws and is at least trying to keep an open democratic society. The rise of the right is a danger and the last thing Europe needs are people like Bannon, not elected and not EU, and Farage, elected, but leaving the EU, starting campaigns to reverse the efforts to eradicate discrimination by weakening the EU and winding up the population against minorities with their populist rhetoric.

Non elected?

Now where have we seen that before.......

 

[Astute]

You act



Not quite. You covered yourself by saying short term, but long term. Staying in the EU, means that, not short term only. So that was an example of your “honesty”.

So what are you trying to twist now?

Have you got a clue what you are saying?

 

[martcov]

Demonising migrants is another convenient issue...suggesting the EU does away with it is farcical. Rows are brewing or simmering over it in Italy, Austria, Poland, Spain, France, Hungary & Germany...those are the ones I have heard about! But sweep it under the carpet shall we?

Juncker & Selmayr antics...trivial??? How??? They undermine everything to do with the supposed democratic EU ideals. 27 countries had no right to oppose Selmayr's appointment until after the event under the threat of Juncker's resignation. Threats & bullying...seeds of discontent

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Very honest of you to quote half a sentence. You must be in Astute’s honesty club. Juncker’s antics are trivial in comparison to 500 million people, living and working together on one continent with the right to do that anywhere within 28 countries. Some of whom who were destroyed or destroying other countries less than a hundred years ago. A truly fantastic achievement valued by the majority of EU citizens. Soon to be further attacked from foreign influencers and powers.

 

[martcov]

Non elected?

Now where have we seen that before.......

House of Lords, Monarchy, our civil service. Oli Robbins.

 

[martcov]

So what are you trying to twist now?

Have you got a clue what you are saying?

Just repeating what you said. So, as much as you have.

 

[Astute]

Very honest of you to quote half a sentence. You must be in Astute’s honesty club. Juncker’s antics are trivial in comparison to 500 million people, living and working together on one continent with the right to do that anywhere within 28 countries. Some of whom who were destroyed or destroying other countries less than a hundred years ago. A truly fantastic achievement valued by the majority of EU citizens. Soon to be further attacked from foreign influencers and powers.

Show where I have been dishonest. We all know that you are. You make accusations and then ignore answers that prove you wrong.

You make out that those in charge of the EU breaking the rules is trivial.

They are losing all trust. That isn't trivial.

 

[Astute]

Just repeating what you said. So, as much as you have.

So what did I say?

Yes. Nothing like you are making out. So honest of you.

 

[martcov]

Things have changed since the days of Maggie.

Now the EU does as it wants. And it even breaks rules to do so.

Yes, we have drifted further to the right.

The EU does as it’s members agree to. Juncker bent the rules as far as it is possible to go without breaking them, according to the enquiry. He broke the spirit of the law and they will not let it happen again. So, apart from people being angry, uproar and people ranting, there is nothing that can be legally done about it.

The EU will not break up because of that, but it’s image has been damaged. And that is not me defending Juncker, but that is what happened. Juncker will retire 2021. The EU will continue.