General Election 2019 thread (46 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

What if they sign a trade deal that gives foreign countries rights to access to things like the NHS or education? ,

A couple more terms of the Tories and the NHS will be fucked.
When you consider a course of chemo can be up to $40000 in the US and some people pay $1000 dollars a month for insulin you don't need to be a genius to work out that hard workingfamies who the toriesclaim to be the party of are going to either lose everything they've worked for or watch one of their number die if one of them gets seriously ill.

 

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[CovInEssex]

Meanwhile in Coventry, the race is on between councillors that never even made it on to Labour's long list, with who can keep their failed campaign going the longest.

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I'm confused, has Labour chose them or not?

 

[CovInEssex]

A couple more terms of the Tories and the NHS will be fucked.
When you consider a course of chemo can be up to $40000 in the US and some people pay $1000 dollars a month for insulin you don't need to be a genius to work out that hard workingfamies who the toriesclaim to be the party of are going to either lose everything they've worked for or watch one of their number die if one of them gets seriously ill.

I don't doubt some of them would like to, but turning the NHS to a paid system would be political suicide. Do you not think they know this? It would be like how ex-mining towns still hate the tories only a thousand times worse.

 

[CCFCSteve]

A couple more terms of the Tories and the NHS will be fucked.
When you consider a course of chemo can be up to $40000 in the US and some people pay $1000 dollars a month for insulin you don't need to be a genius to work out that hard workingfamies who the toriesclaim to be the party of are going to either lose everything they've worked for or watch one of their number die if one of them gets seriously ill.

Nonsense Clint. We won’t ever move to a US model, the country would never accept it. I usually take on board what you say on various threads but this is just scaremongering

 

[clint van damme]

I don't doubt some of them would like to, but turning the NHS to a paid system would be political suicide. Do you not think they know this? It would be like how ex-mining towns still hate the tories only a thousand times worse.

I really hope you're right. For me personally the Preservation of the NHS is one of the biggest issues of any election.

However, there is a lot of evidence of aggressive lobbying for it from the States and pro privatisation groups in cahoots cahoots with senior Tories including current health minister Matt Hancock.

Then there was Trump saying as much when he visited the UK, May giving daggers and Trump retracting his statement. He clearly meant it.

 

[clint van damme]

Nonsense Clint. We won’t ever move to a US model, the country would never accept it. I usually take on board what you say on various threads but this is just scaremongering

See my reply to Covinessex above, I could add a lot more evidence but am on my phone and can't be arsed typing too much.

And you usually back up your points with considered evidence so I'd be interested to hear why it's 'scaremongering.

 

[CCFCSteve]

See my reply to Covinessex above, I could add a lot more evidence but am on my phone and can't be arsed typing too much.

And you usually back up your points with considered evidence so I'd be interested to hear why it's 'scaremongering.

Hard to evidence my position as it’s not even up for discussion. Johnson was quoted saying the NHS wouldn’t be on the table in any deal with US though.

Boris Johnson to tell Trump NHS is 'off the table' in post-Brexit trade deal

What we are talking about here though is changing the whole model of the health service. It’s just cannot happen, the country wouldn’t allow it.

Do I think there needs to be NHS reform, yes 100%, but by that I mean things like charges for GP appointments not attended (and not cancelled), reduction in delivery of certain treatments or contribution towards them (think I’ve mentioned boob jobs before !!!), better/centralised procurement teams etc. Basically stop various people taking the piss and abusing the system !

I’d be with you all the way if anyone tried to move us to a health insurance model similar to US.

 

[chiefdave]

On a practical level what are they going to do about polling stations that aren't available as they are already booked for Xmas events?

And what happens if there's a ton of snow on polling day and people can't get out to vote?

Not convinced a week before Xmas is the best time to be holding an election.

 

[CCFCSteve]

On a practical level what are they going to do about polling stations that aren't available as they are already booked for Xmas events?

And what happens if there's a ton of snow on polling day and people can't get out to vote?

Not convinced a week before Xmas is the best time to be holding an election.

Me neither ! Could come back to haunt Johnson !

 

[clint van damme]

Hard to evidence my position as it’s not even up for discussion. Johnson was quoted saying the NHS wouldn’t be on the table in any deal with US though.

Boris Johnson to tell Trump NHS is 'off the table' in post-Brexit trade deal

What we are talking about here though is changing the whole model of the health service. It’s just cannot happen, the country wouldn’t allow it.

Do I think there needs to be NHS reform, yes 100%, but by that I mean things like charges for GP appointments not attended (and not cancelled), reduction in delivery of certain treatments or contribution towards them (think I’ve mentioned boob jobs before !!!), better/centralised procurement teams etc. Basically stop various people taking the piss and abusing the system !

I’d be with you all the way if anyone tried to move us to a health insurance model similar to US.

Offering a Boris Johnson quote as evidence isn't very reassuring!

I don't trust the Tories with the NHS one little bit.
Especially with the more fervent neo liberals and disaster capitalists now at it's core and the fact it may need to do a deal with the Brexit party whose leader has banged the drum for NHS privatisation in the past.

 

[Grendel]

I think that’s great shout that Boris is using Brexit to get an election not using an election to deliver Brexit.

he already has a majority backing the deal

No he doesn’t

 

[CovInEssex]

So the latest is, Corbyn wants 16 year old's and EU Citz the chance to vote. Boris says fuck off.

No massive issue with either point, although many 16 year olds will just be a double-vote for many parents (The parents could be voting any party)

 

[Grendel]

So the latest is, Corbyn wants 16 year old's and EU Citz the chance to vote. Boris says fuck off.

No massive issue with either point, although many 16 year olds will just be a double-vote for many parents (The parents could be voting any party)

The issue again is it’s an anti democratic stance and Corbyn is trying to control the order paper when unelected

The real issue is 140 labour MPs will not in fact vote for the election and he’s frantically trying to regain credibility - I suspect he will be gone soon

 

[CovInEssex]

The issue again is it’s an anti democratic stance and Corbyn is trying to control the order paper when unelected

The real issue is 140 labour MPs will not in fact vote for the election and he’s frantically trying to regain credibility - I suspect he will be gone soon

How is expanding the electorate anti-democratic? Isn't it the opposite?

I think he knows he's being made to look silly over blocking a GE, so either wants one on his terms, or wants to pass the buck back to Government via ridiculous amendments he knows they can't accept.

Maybe Boris should call his bluff and agree to them.

 

[clint van damme]

How is expanding the electorate anti-democratic? Isn't it the opposite?

I think he knows he's being made to look silly over blocking a GE, so either wants one on his terms, or wants to pass the buck back to Government via ridiculous amendments he knows they can't accept.

Maybe Boris should call his bluff and agree to them.

Personally, I think lowering the voting age is such a major issue to debate that it's just muddying the already very muddy waters.
Think it should be left for another time, let's get Brexit out of the way first.

 

[Grendel]

How is expanding the electorate anti-democratic? Isn't it the opposite?

I think he knows he's being made to look silly over blocking a GE, so either wants one on his terms, or wants to pass the buck back to Government via ridiculous amendments he knows they can't accept.

Maybe Boris should call his bluff and agree to them.

Because the government does not control the order paper for the first time in 500 years and the opposition are trying to dictate legislation

why don’t we make it 10 year olds?

 

[Astute]

I really hope you're right. For me personally the Preservation of the NHS is one of the biggest issues of any election.

However, there is a lot of evidence of aggressive lobbying for it from the States and pro privatisation groups in cahoots cahoots with senior Tories including current health minister Matt Hancock.

Then there was Trump saying as much when he visited the UK, May giving daggers and Trump retracting his statement. He clearly meant it.

The odds are it is just a continuation of what Bliar started. Privatizing parts of the NHS but the government picks up the bill. Costs us billions of pounds each year.

 

[CovInEssex]

Because the government does not control the order paper for the first time in 500 years and the opposition are trying to dictate legislation

why don’t we make it 10 year olds?

Your problem is with the parliamentary system then.

For the record, i think it should remain at 18.

 

[clint van damme]

The odds are it is just a continuation of what Bliar started. Privatizing parts of the NHS but the government picks up the bill. Costs us billions of pounds each year.

It could be, though I have grave concerns. Even that needs nipping in the bud when you've got wankers like Branson during the NHS over lost contracts.

PFI needs fucking off as well, (started by the Tories but embraced and expanded by Blair and Brown).

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Personally, I think lowering the voting age is such a major issue to debate that it's just muddying the already very muddy waters.
Think it should be left for another time, let's get Brexit out of the way first.

I absolutely agree Clint. This is too big an issue to be nodded through as an amendment without it being a manifesto "pledge" at least.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Remember the second reading of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill had a majority of 30 last Monday, which is when they started buggering about talking about dates of elections, etc. Since then, Parliament has done precisely the square root of fuck-all in terms of deciding on ANYTHING related to what we pay them to do.

 

[Grendel]

Your problem is with the parliamentary system then.

For the record, i think it should remain at 18.

no it’s with the abuse of the FPA and trying to control parliament from the opposition benched

 

[Ian1779]

So the latest is, Corbyn wants 16 year old's and EU Citz the chance to vote. Boris says fuck off.

No massive issue with either point, although many 16 year olds will just be a double-vote for many parents (The parents could be voting any party)

If you’re looking for some nice easy campaign material to springboard into an election.... just stick up the list of all the MP’s that think EU Nationals and 16/17 year olds SHOULDN'T vote.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

I absolutely agree Clint. This is too big an issue to be nodded through as an amendment without it being a manifesto "pledge" at least.

Hurrah - i already like Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker, and likely to be throwing his hat into the ring when that biased twat Bercow fucks off. He has NOT selected the amendments on lowering the voting age or allowing EU nationals to vote. He's just allowing the process of the main election bill to move forward (with one amendment being moving to 9th December).

 

[fernandopartridge]

The odds are it is just a continuation of what Bliar started. Privatizing parts of the NHS but the government picks up the bill. Costs us billions of pounds each year.

Another myth, Blair did not start the privatisation of the NHS. The concept of the 'internal market' and the commissioner / provider split came about under the Major government in the early 90s. Though Blair didn't reverse it. It was then turbocharged by the Andrew Lansley HSCA 2012 which brought in compulsory competition for commissioned services opening them up to the entire market.

In fairness though, a chunk of the NHS has always been delivered by private entities, that being GP practices.

 

[Astute]

Another myth, Blair did not start the privatisation of the NHS. The concept of the 'internal market' and the commissioner / provider split came about under the Major government in the early 90s. Though Blair didn't reverse it. It was then turbocharged by the Andrew Lansley HSCA 2012 which brought in compulsory competition for commissioned services opening them up to the entire market.

In fairness though, a chunk of the NHS has always been delivered by private entities, that being GP practices.

Here is one part he started up

Blair welcomes private firms into NHS

Here is a better explanation of what happened

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ou...ired-new-labour-began-dismantling-of-our-nhs/

 

[Grendel]

If you’re looking for some nice easy campaign material to springboard into an election.... just stick up the list of all the MP’s that think EU Nationals and 16/17 year olds SHOULDN'T vote.

How many EU countries allow the vote at 16?

 

[CovInEssex]

Are 16 year old's allowed to vote in the GE, in Scotland?

 

[shmmeee]

I don't doubt some of them would like to, but turning the NHS to a paid system would be political suicide. Do you not think they know this? It would be like how ex-mining towns still hate the tories only a thousand times worse.

That’s not the game. You make it cost so much you can later say it’s “unsustainable” and start chipping away at it.

 

[shmmeee]

Are 16 year old's allowed to vote in the GE, in Scotland?

Don’t think so. Maybe locals?

 

[shmmeee]

Another myth, Blair did not start the privatisation of the NHS. The concept of the 'internal market' and the commissioner / provider split came about under the Major government in the early 90s. Though Blair didn't reverse it. It was then turbocharged by the Andrew Lansley HSCA 2012 which brought in compulsory competition for commissioned services opening them up to the entire market.

In fairness though, a chunk of the NHS has always been delivered by private entities, that being GP practices.

He didn’t reverse it because it lined up with his “choice” (read privatisation) agenda.

He’s entirely to blame for the wholesale privatisation of education though. How many billions of taxpayers assets now in rich Tory hands thanks to the academy program I wonder?

 

[shmmeee]

16 year olds shouldn’t vote. I’m not even sure 18 year olds should TBH.

 

[CovInEssex]

That’s not the game. You make it cost so much you can later say it’s “unsustainable” and start chipping away at it.

The party that does it will be history

 

[CovInEssex]

I can't fathom being back in year 11 and being allowed to vote. Teachers were pushing their own political agendas throughout school already, imagine what it would be like if they knew they can make an instant impact.

 

[Astute]

The party that does it will be history

It soon gets forgotten. Look at how many didn't have a clue what Bliar did to the NHS. Even the unions had a right go at him. And the unions finance Labour.