Grendel
Well-Known Member
Equality in sport I assume
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Equality in sport I assume
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Right
Marty
Well-Known Member
1. It's a complete waste of money. Money that could be better spent elsewhere, the west coast but especially California is seeing the resurgence of medieval illnesses, human feces on the streets, just an overall drop in quality of life. I'd rather spend the money on something that will impact on all of our lives as opposed to a very small minority.
2. Growing numbers of trans people are reporting of wanting to go back to their original sex, feeling they made these decisions when they were mentally ill, but instead of support, were just thrown hormone tablets (no idea on the correct term). I'm not saying they're all mentally ill but there are definitely significant numbers who feel let down. There's even support groups now.
3. I think that these campaigns make them look petty and that they're almost doing it for the sake of it as opposed to get real change. Similar to radical feminists whinging about men sitting with their legs spread, yet will completely ignore women issues in the middle east and within the Muslim communities.
I'm not as articulate on some on here, I think I have got the general ideas across.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Look at Sharon Davies and her Twitter campaign which is trying to preserve women only sport. Transgender in sport will destroy women’s equality
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So where should transgender athletes compete?
hill83
Well-Known Member
If it was me I’d engage a bit of self awareness and realise that if I was a man who transitioned into a woman it would be unfair for me to compete in women’s sport. So I wouldn’t.
People need to take some responsibility.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Is it unfair for biologically female athletes with extra high testosterone levels to compete with other women?
hill83
Well-Known Member
That’s a whole other conversation. And I don’t have a answer to that.
My initial thoughts would be no. As every athlete has their advantages and disadvantages.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Right, so is there a significant difference between that scenario and a transgender woman with a similar hormonal balance and physique?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
That’s not what is being said is it. Google Renee Richards than come back and justify how it’s a level playing field
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The discussion is men who identify as women are actually men and compete against women
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about men who have undergone hormone replacement therapy and surgery in order to have the similar physical and hormonal characteristics of a masculine woman. I'm not including athletes before their transition.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Renee Richards then? How about Rachael McKinnon?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
They are in a similar physical category to Caster Semanya who has to keep her testosterone levels below a specific threshold as a result of a ruling earlier this year. This is why discussion of women with naturally high testosterone levels is not an irrelevance. It is a more obvious type of genetic advantage compared to the many others that give elite athletes an edge over their competitors. Is it fair to allow Jamaicans to compete in sprint events when they are genetically predisposed to produce more fast twitch muscle fibre? Or to allow east African athletes to compete in distance running when they have more slow twitch muscle?
The IAAF has chosen to treat transgender women like McKinnon and Richards in the same bracket as women with a more masculine hormonal make-up. You could argue that Semanya has been unfairly penalised for her genetics in the name of 'levelling the playing field', or it could be argued as recognition that trans women are identified on a par with DSD women. The new proposals for competing as a trans athlete are outlined here:
Testosterone levels allowed for female trans athletes competing in elite sports cut in half
OffenhamSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
Semenya is genetically female, and should be allowed to compete with other females, provided it can be demonstrated that her testosterone levels are natural (there is a great deal of natural variation in testosterone levels in both men and women).
Anyone who is genetically male (no matter how many hormones they take or operations they have gone through) is NOT competing on the level playing field, and should not be allowed to compete against females in an athletic discipline. There are, what, about 25,000 genes in the human genome? Maleness and femaleness is dictated by far more of these than just a few hormone genes, including interaction between genes.
As has been said, transgender people have to take responsibility and accept their limitations. They may FEEL like a woman, but they ARE in a man's body, post-op or not.
Anyone who is genetically male (no matter how many hormones they take or operations they have gone through) is NOT competing on the level playing field, and should not be allowed to compete against females in an athletic discipline. There are, what, about 25,000 genes in the human genome? Maleness and femaleness is dictated by far more of these than just a few hormone genes, including interaction between genes.
As has been said, transgender people have to take responsibility and accept their limitations. They may FEEL like a woman, but they ARE in a man's body, post-op or not.
greys4life
Well-Known Member
To be fair I'd rather share the ladies with transgender people than the coke sniffing moronic men who seem to frequent the ladies all too often at football grounds.
OffenhamSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
Much of the "gender neutral" toilet .... hmmmm .... "debate", let's call it arose from the decision taken by a state in America (one of the Carolinas, i think) who dictated that people must use the public toilet facilities appropriate to their sex at birth (i.e. not their gender, or what they identify as). Loads of the right-on brigade over here (not the trans community) suddenly decided to be offended by this, and got their HR departments to start installing facilities where it doesn't matter what sex or gender you are or choose to be. This has turned out to be a complete dog's breakfast at my place of work, and an utter waste of time and money, result being that the opinions and feelings of the enormous majority have been ignored.
For some figures, my organisation (you may be able to guess) has about 6000 staff and attracts about 27,000 students. Of that total, there are about 250 who are trans (i.e. less than 1%). It also has about 200 staff in HR and allied functions. That should tell you something too!
For some figures, my organisation (you may be able to guess) has about 6000 staff and attracts about 27,000 students. Of that total, there are about 250 who are trans (i.e. less than 1%). It also has about 200 staff in HR and allied functions. That should tell you something too!
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
That’s not even comparable. There is an issue with CAIS athletes like Caster Semenia (sp?) who shouldn’t be competing against women. But no standard XX female has testosterone even close to a trans woman.
Also studies show it’s the massive boost men get at puberty that causes most of the difference and that never goes away.
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covcity4life
Well-Known Member
OffenhamSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
Can it be Katie Hopkins, please???
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Look up Fallon Fox
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It is comparable both have had the 'benefit' of high testosterone for most of their existence and under the new rules would need to significantly ramp these down before being allowed to compete. Semanya was born a woman but due to genetic abnormalities has much more of a masculine physique-but you want her out of women's sport as well?
Sorry I don't really get where you're coming from.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How about if Michael Phelps went through transgender surgery - would this be a reasonable situation if Michael became Michelle and competed against women swimmers?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Is the assumption here that male athletes are undergoing sex changes to win titles?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It’s regarding fairness and a genuine fear from women athletes that their sports will ultimately be destroyed if transgender athletes are allowed to compete as they will always have an advantage
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Which is why the rules are tightening on it considerably as they are with other ways to gain a dishonest edge. Even Semanya who has been female her whole life will have to suppress her own testosterone levels. Genetic predispositions towards excelling in different disciplines are no secret-just some aren't as visually apparent as a heavily built woman
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Yeah. So far no-one has succeeded but there have been some near Misses
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Will basketball players be made to play on their knees? Or could a load of those circus people on stilts play?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Should Jamaican athletes with unusually high proportions of short twitch muscle fibres be barred from the 100m?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Caster is XY and intersex I believe. I’ll be honest I haven’t followed her case closely. But yes, there’s a reasonable case that people with her condition have an unfair advantage. Intersex athletes are massively over represented in sport. It’s a tough case and I feel for the women effected, but yes if there’s evidence they have an unfair advantage they should have their own category.
Why you put benefits in scare quotes is beyond me, the impact of testosterone is well studied. The difference between male and female physique is stark and well documented: Harder, better, faster, stronger: why we must protect female sports
The issue is you’ve started with a nice thing to say to make trans people feel better “trans women are women” and worked as if it’s scientific fact. When it’s not. Now you find yourself arguing that men don’t have a physical advantage which is clear nonsense. This is a good overview of the science behind testosterone and Male physical advantage: Dr Emma Hilton reviews the science supporting the IOC decision to let male-born transgender athletes into female competition. • Fair Play For Women
You can protect trans people without throwing science in the bin.
greys4life
Well-Known Member
I believe it is fairly simple but there are certain areas that do complicate matters. As a fully intact 'male' it would certainly require certain modifications to a womens prison, Any beautician can refuse to treat anyone regardless of gender and yes I do believe a transgender person should be eligible to take a grant - why not?
I do agree that women should be allowed say but I find it rather patronising that you feel the need to say it. Regarding a safe male space do you really think that a pre-op transgender person would feel safe in a male urinal at a football match for instance? As I've said I would feel far safer in the womens toilet with a transgender person in the ladies than the coked, beered up morons at games.
I'm not sure why you find that being a woman is a state of mind horrifically offensive - I don't.
Neither can you know what it feels like to be transgender - all you can do is relate to a stereotypical view of how he/she feels
Not quite sure how if a woman's biology does predict interests and personallity then surely it is a state of mind. Must say it is very kind of you to speak up for women but trust me women are quite capable of doing it themselves.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Im not speaking for women, but on a forum that’s 99% Male I’ll chip in. Also as I have a functioning brain I’ll mention holes in any argument.
Lots to unpack there. If a male space isn’t safe for certain males the response is to make it safe. Should gay men use women’s toilets? What about other gender non-conforming men? If I decide I want to wear a dress should I be allowed in because I won’t be safe? Moreover what about the feeing of safety of the women? Why does the need of the minority outweigh the need of the majority?
Most of your post is random insults and rhetorical questions TBH, so maybe not that much to unpack after all.
Gender dysphoria is a thing and services should be available just like all mental health issues. Gender identity is utter nonsense with no scientific basis and shouldn’t be used to make legislation. Sex exists and matters.
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
First of all I am a scientist.
Semenya has faulty androgen receptors, which means she cannot naturally regulate her testosterone levels and is likely not getting any additional advantage from the elevated levels. What puzzles me is you are so focussed on one type of genetic abnormality but disregard the others that make elite athletes what they are. I've never argued that men don't have a physical advantage, nor have I argued for the scrapping of gender segregation in physical sports. My point is simply that if we start discriminating against people with highly favourable genetics we are doing all a disservice.