General Election 2019 thread (66 Viewers)

[Astute]

Everyone is either right or left wing. Even centrists are just a mix of right and left wing policies. But each policy follows one of the other ideal.

You’re not in the middle, you just have a mix of policy ideas, same as everyone else.

The trick is the messaging. We’ve just elected a hard right government in centrist clothing because they knew without spending promises they wouldn’t get elected. Same as Corbyn knew without a better tax, crime and national security message than he had he wouldn’t.

What worries me is it’s not economics that’s making people decide these days. It’s social values. This country has always been socially conservative and soft left economically. Since the 80s Labour has been remaking itself as a socially liberal party first and a left wing party second, and that fell apart spectacularly last week. I’m not sure there’s a majority in England and Wales for a socially liberal party right now. But if Labour goes more socially conservative on things like immigration and political correctness, they’ll open up that flank to the Greens and Lib Dem’s in the cities. It also goes against the ethos of most of the new membership and the PLP.

I think they’ll get the economics right. They’ll tone it down and start from where the voter is next time (I hope). I’m more worried that we’ll double down on the culture wars and the demographics don’t support that.

We just had hard left and hard right. I didn't vote.

Yes being in the middle is taking the best from both sides. And not normally something that is strong to one side.

Spend what is needed but don't spend everything on everything. Raise tax if needed but don't hammer anyone or anything too much with tax. Two points both parties have a problem with.

 

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[clint van damme]

So are you saying that the ideas were not wrong but agree that the ideas were wrong?

No. I agree with some of the ideas not others. Some need tweaking.
Its fairly straightforward.

 

[richnrg]

I've girl friends who've not done a days work since they left school 30 years ago who've had child after child just to get out of working.

you should have worn a condom.

 

[richnrg]

While I’m here anyone who genuinely has an issue with immigration can block me right now and never see the amazing library of gifs I’ve still got to share. And if anyone think they are going to ‘send me back’ good luck packing me off to Jamaica, South Africa, Scotland, The Netherlands and that one last little bit to Manchester.

those fucking mancs, coming here, stealing our jobs.

 

[Grendel]

Lib Dems should be doing so much better.

I just wonder how much better they would have done without the stop Brexit policy.

Ive never really understood by anyone would vote Lib Dem

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Ive never really understood by anyone would vote Lib Dem

Back in the Charles Kennedy days they were left of Labour!

 

[Grendel]

Back in the Charles Kennedy days they were left of Labour!

They are just a rag rag bunch of freaks and weirdos - most who vote for them have no idea what the policies are.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

They are just a rag rag bunch of freaks and weirdos - most who vote for them have no idea what the policies are.

They're the only ones whose sums added up this time around.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

They're the only ones whose sums added up this time around.

Not checked the math they claimed but the theme was the same for all manifestos.

Liberal Democrat Manifesto: an initial reaction from IFS researchers

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[chiefdave]

Lib Dems should be doing so much better.

Rumours that Jo Swinson will be rewarded for her stunning success as party leader with a place in the Lords!

 

[tisza]

Rumours that Jo Swinson will be rewarded for her stunning success as party leader with a place in the Lords!

Time that place was seriously slimmed down and reformed.
Maybe the right place for someone who wanted just to cancel Brexit rather than have ask the people again.

 

[Ian1779]

Rumours that Jo Swinson will be rewarded for her stunning success as party leader with a place in the Lords!

Reward for being a covert Brexit enabler.... Agent Swinson can now return to the nest.

 

[chiefdave]

Can you explain to me why certain parties should be left wing and right wing?

None at all, no reason why UKIP can't become a party that favours unlimited immigration or the Brexit Party support remain.

What is wrong with a party closer to the middle.....similar to 'New Labour'?

Personally I like to have a choice and going back to 'New Labour' and that choice being between a blue Tory and a red Tory doesn't exactly inspire.

That raises the issue what the party members should be primarily concerned with. Should it be electing a leader in line with their preferred direction for the party or electing a leader they think can win even if that means abandoning their principles?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In which case lets stop subsidising things. At the moment is we're caught between state owned and privately owned. Taxpayers are expected to fund the non-profit making parts of an industry while others walk off with the profits. If we're rejecting publicly owned shouldn't we see that through to its conclusion?

I agree entirely. They don't want state interference until it involves giving them money, at which point that's perfectly acceptable to create jobs etc.

You're either free market or you aren't. You live by the sword, you die by it.

Financial crisis I was really annoyed at the massive bailouts given - it shouldn't have been bailed out, it should've been bought out like a hostile takeover. Problem with public sector is it's too soft in these instances. You won't see another private company look at at another one that's struggling and say "shall we give them some of our money til they get back on their feet?" They offer a ridiculously low price for it and tell them take it or leave it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Can you explain to me why certain parties should be left wing and right wing?

This is why we have people that will only ever vote Labour or Tories. The other parties will never get much of a chance. It is why one party overspends and the other party brings in austerity. Austerity affects less people than the side that ends austerity by spending.

What is wrong with a party closer to the middle.....similar to 'New Labour'?

Yes big mistakes were made. Like taking us to war on a lie, speeding up privatisation of the NHS or taking away decent pensions for all. But most of it worked. Labour voters had Labour in power and Tory voters had a government they could trust not to wreck the economy.

Left wing and right wing are ideals. But the most ideal is somewhere in the middle.

I actually agree with you on this. But isn't that what the Lib Dems are?

 

[chiefdave]

I actually agree with you on this. But isn't that what the Lib Dems are?

At one point I hoped we might see the more centrist Conservative and Labour MPs move across to the Lib Dems and end up with 3 roughly equal parties. Seems there was too many egos involved for that to happen. Suspect if they had done that more might have followed, was always a tough sell to get sitting MPs to walk to an entirely new party with a high risk of then losing their seat.

 

[tisza]

BTW Boris you can whip through a law any MP that loses (gives up) the party whip has to face an immediate by-election,

 

[Flying Fokker]

I cannot believe some labour supporters are in denial like Richard Burgon etc.
Totally deluded still saying left wing policies are the way forward and supporting Corbyn/McDonnells ideology.
Left wing socialism is dead,People don’t want it what part do they not understand???
They need to get out of that champagne socialist London bubble and speak to the working classes they lost up north and the midlands.
Sons of miners voting Conservative I thought I’d never see it.
The Labour Party need rid of momentum just like Militant tendancy in the 80’s and ask themselves do they want to govern again?
Because if they do I’m afraid all you left wing followers are going to have to move to the centre like Blair did.
I know that will hurt you to hear but the truth hurts I’m afraid.
End of rant!!!

Or perhaps the moderate form their own breakaway party...pretty quickly If possible. Then the next election will see the rest off. But they won’t win any election until momentum is stopped. It could take 15 years.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Lib Dems should be doing so much better.

I just wonder how much better they would have done without the stop Brexit policy.

They failed on the democratic bit...sadly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As I’ve said there’s arguments for each of the policies if you ignore the negative implications !

I know the potential benefits of nationalisation ...but saying you would nationalise rail and utilities and give free broadband for all and there wouldn’t be a cost to the wider public is loony left !

companies gifting employees shares or having share schemes isn’t loony left (I’m all for it as it encourages employee ‘buy in’).....the state forcing all of companies of a certain size to do this, is !

An Italian state run company has just taken over the West Coast line. Abellio and Deutsche Bahn have also had big sway over our networks for years. Why is it we’re so happy to let other foreign states control our railways instead of our own?

 

[tisza]

An Italian state run company has just taken over the West Coast line. Abellio and Deutsche Bahn have also had big sway over our networks for years. Why is it we’re so happy to let other foreign states control our railways instead of our own?

Because UK investors are smart enough to avoid it? Aren't the major shareholders a British group?
People comparing our train services to European ones should welcome the expertise of these European companies.
Those arguing for EU free market etc. can't complain when they invest in the UK

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Because UK investors are smart enough to avoid it?

So why did East Coast do fine under state ownership?

 

[tisza]

So why did East Coast do fine under state ownership?

who operates it? Makes it work?

 

[CCFCSteve]

An Italian state run company has just taken over the West Coast line. Abellio and Deutsche Bahn have also had big sway over our networks for years. Why is it we’re so happy to let other foreign states control our railways instead of our own?

I’d said numerous time’s BSB that this half in half out rail situation needs resolution ie potentially even the gradual returning to public ownership (and would’ve received public support). My point was the ideological drive regarding the various matters listed (nationalisation of utilities, free broadband for all, forcing companies to give 10% of companies to their employees etc) and then stating only the super rich will pay was nonsense and the public saw through it/didn’t want it.

 

[Astute]

Because UK investors are smart enough to avoid it? Aren't the major shareholders a British group?
People comparing our train services to European ones should welcome the expertise of these European companies.
Those arguing for EU free market etc. can't complain when they invest in the UK

A free market seems to be good until it goes against the point being made.

The EU is all about free/open markets. But sime that are in full agreement also want to choose which free/open markets we partake in.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I cannot believe some labour supporters are in denial like Richard Burgon etc.
Totally deluded still saying left wing policies are the way forward and supporting Corbyn/McDonnells ideology.
Left wing socialism is dead,People don’t want it what part do they not understand???
They need to get out of that champagne socialist London bubble and speak to the working classes they lost up north and the midlands.
Sons of miners voting Conservative I thought I’d never see it.
The Labour Party need rid of momentum just like Militant tendancy in the 80’s and ask themselves do they want to govern again?
Because if they do I’m afraid all you left wing followers are going to have to move to the centre like Blair did.
I know that will hurt you to hear but the truth hurts I’m afraid.
End of rant!!!

I'm sure you'll be saying left wing socialism is dead next time you use the NHS you helmet

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’d said numerous time’s BSB that this half in half out rail situation needs resolution ie potentially even the gradual returning to public ownership (and would’ve received public support). My point was the ideological drive regarding the various matters listed (nationalisation of utilities, free broadband for all, forcing companies to give 10% of companies to their employees etc) and then stating only the super rich will pay was nonsense and the public saw through it/didn’t want it.

And yet with the same allegations on anti-Semitism, IRA/Hamas, Commie Corbyn etc etc in 2017 they got over 40% of the vote. Strikes me that there were 2 key differences one being that the party had committed itself to Brexit and the other being a wet lettuce opponent instead of a talented charlatan. It might be reasonable to think that with say Jeremy Hunt in charge and dithering over Brexit we'd have had a similar outcome.

I'm not defending him, I want him out and find it incredulous that he is clinging on with Momentum's backing. But let's not forget 2017.

 

[westcountry_skyblue]

I'm sure you'll be saying left wing socialism is dead next time you use the NHS you helmet

Good evening to you to:cigar::woot::finger:

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Unrelated but why has there been almost total radio silence from the Mogg since the election was called and even now after it?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Because UK investors are smart enough to avoid it? Aren't the major shareholders a British group?
People comparing our train services to European ones should welcome the expertise of these European companies.
Those arguing for EU free market etc. can't complain when they invest in the UK

So we should welcome the expertise of the European companies - who're owned by their governments. Thus totally negating any argument you won't have the knowledge or expertise in a state owned company. We could have our own railways being successful and investing in the European ones and making money for ourselves - after all the most successful period for the ECML in recent years has when the govt has had to take back control of it after a private sector fuck-up. Then picked a new franchise and it went shit again so they had to pick up the pieces.

The argument that state owned companies owning railways won't work is a complete nonsense when you look at countries that have them and have more reliable services, cheaper tickets and profit from them. So much so they've got money left to buy into and profit from ours.

 

[Grendel]

Unrelated but why has there been almost total radio silence from the Mogg since the election was called and even now after it?

Same reason as the potential Home Secretary

 

[Grendel]

So we should welcome the expertise of the European companies - who're owned by their governments. Thus totally negating any argument you won't have the knowledge or expertise in a state owned company. We could have our own railways being successful and investing in the European ones and making money for ourselves - after all the most successful period for the ECML in recent years has when the govt has had to take back control of it after a private sector fuck-up. Then picked a new franchise and it went shit again so they had to pick up the pieces.

The argument that state owned companies owning railways won't work is a complete nonsense when you look at countries that have them and have more reliable services, cheaper tickets and profit from them. So much so they've got money left to buy into and profit from ours.

On many journeys we don’t have cheaper rail tickets

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Same reason as the potential Home Secretary

...being?

 

[Grendel]

...being?

They are as appealing as a plate of cold sick

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

On many journeys we don’t have cheaper rail tickets

From that I'm assuming you're trying to say they don't have cheaper rail tickets.

But nice that from that entire post the only thing you can find to argue on is that sometimes the tickets aren't cheaper