All time average attendances (9 Viewers)

[Evo1883]

Credit to the Sunderland fans forum, which I have completely copied and pasted this from after having a wee look over there.

I was actually quite impressed with ours for 2 reasons

No top flight until 1967 and the last 10/12 years of decline, its also worth noting how little we've won compared to many of the clubs above us

Also worth mentioning that when I last seen a table like this we were 17th some 10 years ago


How England’s top four divisions look based on all-time average attendance has been revealed and it’s got plenty of talking online.

Stoke Sentinel have settled arguments about what makes a big club or otherwise for as long as there has been football, going as far back at 1889, yes, we’re going back as far as around 131 years ago.

Back in the day, stands would be packed to the rafters, that was until the Hillsborough disaster which led to a change in how grounds across the country looked.

Ground, size, community spirit, ownership, promotions and relegations all play a part in a club’s fanbase.

Manchester United take top place for the Premier League, seeing 40,360 on all-time average coming through the turnstiles throughout their history.

They are followed by Liverpool who are around 6,000 out with 34,763 and then Arsenal are in third with 34,701. Tottenham are just under their London rivals with 34,101.

Teams currently not in the Premier League 2019/20 season but are in the top tier based on their all-time average attendance are Sunderland, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Birmingham, Middlesbrough, West Brom and Derby (numbers can be seen below).

Take a look at what league your team would in ranked as we continue to see how England’s top four divisions look based on all-time average attendance…

PREMIER LEAGUE
Manchester United – 40,360
Liverpool – 34,763
Arsenal – 34,701
Tottenham – 34,101
Newcastle – 32,757
Chelsea – 32,473
Everton – 31,738
Man City – 30,394
Aston Villa – 28,594
Sunderland – 25,811
West Ham – 25,786
Leeds – 25,768
Sheffield Wednesday – 21,402
Wolves – 20,731
Birmingham – 20,094
Middlesbrough – 19,780
Leicester – 19,486
West Brom – 19,430
Sheffield United – 19,150
Derby County – 18,410

Nottingham Forest just miss out on being placed in the top tier based on their all-time average attendance (18,311), they are also pipped by rivals Derby County (18,410).

Southampton are in second with 18,271, they are then followed by newly relegated Norwich who on average have seen 17,886 on average come into their ground(s), their rivals Ipswich Town take third with 17,878 and then they are followed by newly promoted Coventry City whose figure stands at 17,222.

Southampton, Norwich, Crystal Palace and Watford are the 2019/20 Premier League clubs to be placed in the second division based on their average all time attendance.

CHAMPIONSHIP
Nottingham Forest – 18,311
Southampton – 18,271
Norwich – 17,886
Ipswich – 17,878
Coventry – 17,222
Bolton – 17,110
Stoke – 17,029
Portsmouth – 16,985
Crystal Palace – 16,215
Blackburn – 16,094
Fulham – 16,065
Charlton – 15,377
Cardiff – 15,374
Burnley – 14,295
Huddersfield – 13,465
Bristol City – 13,440
QPR – 13,396
Preston – 13,347
Brighton – 12,191
Millwall – 12,191
Plymouth – 12,103
Hull – 11,972
Watford – 11,385
Blackpool – 10,941

Swansea City top the third division if English football was based on their average all-time attendance – with 10,854, their a decrease of under 5,000 on rivals Cardiff.

Bradford City are second with 10,590, with Reading following them in third with 10,550, and then Luton come in at fourth with a figure of 10,514.

Bournemouth are the only current Premier League club that would be in the third division if based on all time average attendance. Swansea, Reading, Luton, Brentford and Barnsley are the only teams currently in the Championship that feature in the table below.

LEAGUE ONE
Swansea – 10,854
Bradford – 10,590
Reading – 10,550
Luton – 10,514
Bristol Rovers – 9,693
Brentford – 9,470
Barnsley – 9,254
Swindon – 9,213
Oldham – 8,871
MK Dons – 8,218
Wigan – 8,157
Leyton Orient – 8,155
Grimsby – 7,742
Rotherham – 7,412
Bury – 7,319
Bournemouth – 7,278
Oxford – 7,249
Port Vale – 7,195
Doncaster – 7,168
AFC Wimbledon – 6,936
Southend – 6,849
Northampton – 6,667
Tranmere – 6,434
Carlisle – 6,408

For the fourth division, Gillingham would sit top with 6,341, they are then followed by Peterborough United who have seen 6,240 on all time average come through the turnstiles of their stadium(s). Walsall are in a third with 6,110 and then Lincoln’s boost in average attendance recently helps them into fourth place at 5,899.

Gillingham, Peterborough, Lincoln, Shrewsbury, Wycombe, Accrington, Rochdale, Burton and Fleetwood are the only teams currently in League One that feature in the table below.

LEAGUE TWO
Gillingham – 6,341
Peterborough – 6,240
Walsall – 6,110
Lincoln – 5,899
Mansfield – 5,532
Newport – 5,382
Shrewsbury – 5,337
Exeter – 5,239
Wycombe – 4,984
Scunthorpe – 4,923
Colchester – 4,615
Crewe – 4,576
Accrington – 4,189
Cambridge – 4,154
Rochdale – 3,716
Cheltenham – 3,611
Burton – 3,510
Fleetwood – 3,154
Salford – 3,102
Stevenage – 3,039
Crawley – 2,789
Forest Green – 2,736
Macclesfield – 2,294
Morecambe – 2,059

 

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[clint van damme]

surprised at Blues and Middlesborough.

 

[Evo1883]

surprised at Blues and Middlesborough.

Definitely, but fair play especially blues... Also crushes the myth that man City have no fans

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I've seen this a few times- the season at Northampton & all the times at St Andrews drag us down.

Up until we hit our massive decline we were higher, I think bottom of the Prem or thereabouts, since that time teams like Leicetser, Derby & Southampton have been getting 30k every week while we sometimes got 3k.

Another little sign of how damaging the last few years have been, but also how much potential is there, hence my waffling about 15,000 home seats being not enough

 

[Evo1883]

I've seen this a few times- the season at Northampton & all the times at St Andrews drag us down.

Up until we hit our massive decline we were higher, I think bottom of the Prem or thereabouts, since that time teams like Leicetser, Derby & Southampton have been getting 30k every week while we sometimes got 3k.

Another little sign of how damaging the last few years have been, but also how much potential is there, hence my waffling about 15,000 home seats being not enough

We were 17th up until around 2010 in this very table.. Above both forest and Derby too, impressive at the time considering that as a club we've won very little and spent most of our time outside the top flight

 

[rondog1973]

Pretty sure it's only in the last 5/6 years that Leicester's historical attendance figure has exceeded ours.

Irritates when new stadium capacity figures of 20,000 are recommended by some fans due to this.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

We were 17th up until around 2010 in this very table.. Above both forest and Derby too, impressive at the time considering that as a club we've won very little and spent most of our time outside the top flight

Yes you're absolutely right. The madness around grounds & crises all over the place meant a few years of very low crowds., allowing the clubs which were never really any bigger than us to pull away.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Pretty sure it's only in the last 5/6 years that Leicester's historical attendance figure has exceeded ours.

Irritates when new stadium capacity figures of 20,000 are recommended by some fans due to this.

You are correct. And they were a top division team 30 years before we were. Also they never had a one season average as high as we have (twice). Potential is there, Coventry's population is expanding, just needs to be tapped into, and I'd say we have 'green shoots' there.

I guess one of the biggest things to take from this- ie that we've dropped significantly since 2010- is that we have been lucky to stumble across Robins who seems the perfect fit for us, and my god the catalogue of disastrous decisions by the club had a massive impact.

 

[Legia Sky Blue]

Seems as good a way as any of judging a clubs historic status as any. Back of the fag packet calculations show that without our Birmingham & Northampton seasons our average would go up to about 17,500, so still in the same position.

These recent BCD games should bring down a few averages though

 

[Gibbo]

..but how many of the Sunderland fans were still there at half time let along 65 minutes. They are world leaders at leaving before the end

 

[pusbccfc]

Proves the point that 18,000 would be too small to start at.

While 18,000 may see us near filling it most weeks, I still believe there should be room for big games. We should aim for 80% full every week in the championship.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Proves the point that 18,000 would be too small to start at.

While 18,000 may see us near filling it most weeks, I still believe there should be room for big games. We should aim for 80% full every week in the championship.

Here's how full Championship grounds were last season. Average 73% full across the division. If they think that we'd be getting between 15k & 18k or so in the Championship in Cov (did they say that or am I imagining it?) then if that was 73% full as is the average, then thats a capacity of between... 20,547 and 24,657. This talk of 18k capacity makes no sense however you look at it.

Luton​	98%
Fulham​	96%
Leeds​	93%
Brentford​	92%
Forest​	91%
WBA​	90%
Huddersfield​	89%
Bristol City​	80%
Derby​	80%
Swansea​	77%
Stoke​	76%
QPR​	75%
Birmingham​	69%
Cardiff​	69%
Millwall​	68%
Charlton​	67%
Preston​	61%
Reading​	60%
Sheff Weds​	60%
Boro​	59%
Barnsley​	59%
Hull​	48%
Blackburn​	44%
Wigan​	42%

 

[shmmeee]

Seems to me the ideal, ignoring budgets and building constraints for now, would be a 25k stadium that can hold 15k without feeling empty.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Seems to me the ideal, ignoring budgets and building constraints for now, would be a 25k stadium that can hold 15k without feeling empty.

The easy way to do that is to not have huge expanses of space between the stands and the pitch.

 

[Evo1883]

I still believe 22-24000 is perfect for this club..

Highfield Road basically

 

[Esoterica]

There's a lot of single town/City clubs on the Championship list there. I wonder how much of an impact the lack of a strong local rivalry has on a team's support, if any. Or is that just more to do with City size/catchment area?

We don't really have a 2-way fierce local rivalry, not in the way a 2 club city does for example. I'm sure kids in Liverpool force each other to pick their allegiences on the playground at an early age, whereas if you're from a sizeable single club town or city perhaps their is a bit more apathy and the pressure is more on parents to get their kids hooked.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

There's a lot of single town/City clubs on the Championship list there. I wonder how much of an impact the lack of a strong local rivalry has on a team's support, if any. Or is that just more to do with City size/catchment area?

We don't really have a 2-way fierce local rivalry, not in the way a 2 club city does for example. I'm sure kids in Liverpool force each other to pick their allegiences on the playground at an early age, whereas if you're from a sizeable single club town or city perhaps their is a bit more apathy and the pressure is more on parents to get their kids hooked.

You're kind of there- its about having something to get the blood pumping. That might be a relegation dogfight, might be a promotion push, might be the constant needle of a big local rival in your ear to compete with. Thats why often teams will try to manufacture a rivaly (us & Villa eg), as its somethig to get excited about. People often say "the fans want to be entertained", however I don't think thats true, I think fans want a cause to fight for- as opposed to drifting aimlessly.

 

[shmmeee]

I still believe 22-24000 is perfect for this club..

Highfield Road basically

Right now or ever?

We’d break 25k in the Prem easily.

 

[shmmeee]

You're kind of there- its about having something to get the blood pumping. That might be a relegation dogfight, might be a promotion push, might be the constant needle of a big local rival in your ear to compete with. Thats why often teams will try to manufacture a rivaly (us & Villa eg), as its somethig to get excited about. People often say "the fans want to be entertained", however I don't think thats true, I think fans want a cause to fight for- as opposed to drifting aimlessly.

That cause is entertaining though. The banter, the drama, all that keeps you engaged as a fan and gives the club its stickiness. The experience of being a Cov fan has been depressing for about as long as I’ve been a Cov fan, and that’s everything from lack of serious local rivalries to shitty ownership making the club feel “other”, to dull losing football, to the match day experience being pretty poor since the Ricoh move (and if I’m honest before that as well, but mitigated a bit by the nostalgic feel of HR).

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Standing capacity is more than seating capacity, ratio is about 1.5:1. Working on the assumption that one day standing comes back (it will)...

... my plan would be capacity of 25,000 seats now, with the ends ready for conversion to safe standing. That would increase capacity straight up to 30,352- no need for expansion imho. If we get relegated, put back to seats & back to lower capacity & ensure the place isn't mostly empty.

I know there are problems- pricing/ lost revenue etc, but if we were gonna have our 'wishlists', that would be on mine.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

That cause is entertaining though. The banter, the drama, all that keeps you engaged as a fan and gives the club its stickiness. The experience of being a Cov fan has been depressing for about as long as I’ve been a Cov fan, and that’s everything from lack of serious local rivalries to shitty ownership making the club feel “other”, to dull losing football, to the match day experience being pretty poor since the Ricoh move (and if I’m honest before that as well, but mitigated a bit by the nostalgic feel of HR).

Yes I agree, I meant entertaining as in whats on the pitch. You are right. All fans want to be stirred into caring & feeling emotionally engaged, to be sucked in by the drama as you say. Drama is not drifting from one crisis to another with seemingly no end in sight.

 

[Evo1883]

Right now or ever?

We’d break 25k in the Prem easily.

Absolutely, I'm just factoring in the yo yo club potential and the potential sway between divisions... Nothing worse than a vast amount of empty seats because of 2 shit seasons

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Absolutely, I'm just factoring in the yo yo club potential and the potential sway between divisions... Nothing worse than a vast amount of empty seats because of 2 shit seasons

Being a yoyo club increases attendances though- constantly looking up or looking down, never boring. Its drifting that causes apathy.

 

[shmmeee]

Absolutely, I'm just factoring in the yo yo club potential and the potential sway between divisions... Nothing worse than a vast amount of empty seats because of 2 shit seasons

I think that’s where people’s nervousness comes in. Of course even 20k will look silly if we get relegated, Robins leaves, and we’re back to sub 10k crowds in L1/2.

Reading between the lines of a lot of the “its too small” posts is a need for reassurance that we are aiming up not down. Not sure what the club can do about that, we certainly don’t want a repeat of “Operation Premiership”, I guess it’s just time and how well we do the next few seasons.

 

[Evo1883]

Being a yoyo club increases attendances though- constantly looking up or looking down, never boring. Its drifting that causes apathy.

I just see let's say 24000 as a sweet spot .... top flight in todays football will always be full in Coventry, relegated still over 90% full, relegated further still 60/70% full..

We should always allow the option to extend should say a huge takeover was to ever happen or an extended top flight period came about...

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I just see let's say 24000 as a sweet spot .... top flight in todays football will always be full in Coventry, relegated still over 90% full, relegated further still 60/70% full..

We should always allow the option to extend should say a huge takeover was to ever happen etc

I'm not sure what you're saying, but if you're pitching 24,000 for the Prem then you've completely taken leave of your senses.

 

[Evo1883]

I'm not sure what you're saying, but if you're pitching 24,000 for the Prem then you've completely taken leave of your senses.

What I'm saying is, Coventry without a takeover etc, will be a club that punches above its weight should it achieve top flight status again...

Our rightful place based on the last 70 years is between the top 2 divisions.

I mean we could aim big and build 40k but what's the point? The realistic sweet spot for a club like us is between 22 and 24 k with the option to extend should that need ever arise... That need isn't there for us today, so instead of aiming too high, let's make it intimidating, let's make it feel full even when it's not

 

[shmmeee]

I will say that I never thought we used the Ricoh correctly when it was virtually empty. Little things like netting off areas further back, getting flags and stuff in, would’ve helped a lot.

On another note, how would people feel about renting the Ricoh on a one off basis (current mess aside), for those big games? 16k in a 20k stadium most weeks, come Villa we sell 32k in the Ricoh? Or would you want to be at “home” for those games and forego the extra revenue?

 

[Evo1883]

I will say that I never thought we used the Ricoh correctly when it was virtually empty. Little things like netting off areas further back, getting flags and stuff in, would’ve helped a lot.

On another note, how would people feel about renting the Ricoh on a one off basis (current mess aside), for those big games? 16k in a 20k stadium most weeks, come Villa we sell 32k in the Ricoh? Or would you want to be at “home” for those games and forego the extra revenue?

The ricoh has always been too big for us imo.. Imagine a 3000 away end like most stadia and it becomes much too big for us

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Standing capacity is more than seating capacity, ratio is about 1.5:1. Working on the assumption that one day standing comes back (it will)...

... my plan would be capacity of 25,000 seats now, with the ends ready for conversion to safe standing. That would increase capacity straight up to 30,352- no need for expansion imho. If we get relegated, put back to seats & back to lower capacity & ensure the place isn't mostly empty.

I know there are problems- pricing/ lost revenue etc, but if we were gonna have our 'wishlists', that would be on mine.

But if you put in the standing I think there would be a lot of fans who would complain if you then just took it away again due to relegation and wanting to reduce the capacity.

However if you mean having say 25% safe standing and reducing this to 10% so some still remained that would be fine.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

But if you put in the standing I think there would be a lot of fans who would complain if you then just took it away again due to relegation and wanting to reduce the capacity.

However if you mean having say 25% safe standing and reducing this to 10% so some still remained that would be fine.

Yep there would be all kinds of issues, thats just my wishlist. You can have standing blocks next to seating blocks these days with no problems, so you could flex the capacity any way you like.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The ricoh has always been too big for us imo.. Imagine a 3000 away end like most stadia and it becomes much too big for us

False, we have never been good enough for the Ricoh.

 

[shmmeee]

The ricoh has always been too big for us imo.. Imagine a 3000 away end like most stadia and it becomes much too big for us

Well it wouldn’t be too big for the sorts of games we can sell 30k tickets to which was kinda my point.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I will say that I never thought we used the Ricoh correctly when it was virtually empty. Little things like netting off areas further back, getting flags and stuff in, would’ve helped a lot.

On another note, how would people feel about renting the Ricoh on a one off basis (current mess aside), for those big games? 16k in a 20k stadium most weeks, come Villa we sell 32k in the Ricoh? Or would you want to be at “home” for those games and forego the extra revenue?

You could also split the bowl into two tiers, with a gangway like we had in the Sky Blue Stand. That takes it to about 28k capacity, and adds way more character.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I will say that I never thought we used the Ricoh correctly when it was virtually empty. Little things like netting off areas further back, getting flags and stuff in, would’ve helped a lot.

I agree with the netting off. Net off the areas at the back so there are more people close to the pitch rather than entire blocks. However due to H&S/stewarding I can see why that was probably preferred.

On another note, how would people feel about renting the Ricoh on a one off basis (current mess aside), for those big games? 16k in a 20k stadium most weeks, come Villa we sell 32k in the Ricoh? Or would you want to be at “home” for those games and forego the extra revenue?

If we want a new stadium to feel like home it has to be used for the big games too. If we moved out everytime we got a 'big match atmosphere' it wouldn't get that connection. So I'd stay at the smaller stadium and consider price rises to mitigate the potential lost revenue from extra demand. I know it'd be unpopular and get complaints on SM but it would be costly to the club to miss out on the money.