Fresh Ricoh talks (18 Viewers)

[mmttww]

This. Aside from anything else I want us to stand on our own two feet not be some sad twisted entity hanging on for someone else’s failure. People seem obsessed with tying our future to Wasps. The opposite of love isn’t hate guys, it’s indifference.

This (This).

 

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[Skyblueweeman]

Revenues from. F and B would be higher if a large percentage was not going to Franchisees linked to retail loans

Yeah this. Grendel is both right and wrong.

Generally within the hospitality industry, profit margins on F+B are usually on the generous side. In this scenario, I guess it depends on how much of the profit is siphoned of to Compass or what that agreement looks like (or whoever the catering providers are). If you bring it in house, your costs will naturally go up but the % profit margin will also increase.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah this. Grendel is both right and wrong.

Generally within the hospitality industry, profit margins on F+B are usually on the generous side. In this scenario, I guess it depends on how much of the profit is siphoned of to Compass or what that agreement looks like (or whoever the catering providers are). If you bring it in house, your costs will naturally go up but the % profit margin will also increase.

The net profit to the whole group in the accounts has been consistently around 10% of revenue

 

[Skyblueweeman]

The net profit to the whole group in the accounts has been consistently around 10% of revenue

I'm not sure which accounts you're referring to but again, having worked in hospitality (including a couple of professional sports clubs/estates) for over 15 years, I know that F+B profit margins tend to be decent.

If they're not in the accounts you refer to, then they're either doing something wrong with cost control or someone is taking a nice dividend.

 

[oldfiver]

The net profit to the whole group in the accounts has been consistently around 10% of revenue

It depends on how they treat the contribution to the franchisor. Effectively they receive what is tantamount to a loan but "repaid" as a percentage of turnover. So WASPS figure of "profit " is after deducting thus element - it is not the usual measurement of profit

 

[chiefdave]

Big business is harsh to say the least I’m not really interested in Wasps, what they do or how they do it I’m just pointing out to some on here who might think Wasps possible demise doesn’t necessarily mean the Ricoh Arena is up for grabs I’m certain things will be in place to prevent that from happening, possibly all ready is.

Realistically what can he do to prevent it happening past pumping more of his own money in? The potential issue is that according to national media reports pre-covid their owner was reaching the limit of what he could put into Wasps. If there's now an additional half a mill a month losses to fund, as other Premiership clubs have suggested, how long can he sustain that?

 

[Grendel]

Yeah this. Grendel is both right and wrong.

Generally within the hospitality industry, profit margins on F+B are usually on the generous side. In this scenario, I guess it depends on how much of the profit is siphoned of to Compass or what that agreement looks like (or whoever the catering providers are). If you bring it in house, your costs will naturally go up but the % profit margin will also increase.

No profit is put into compass as such. They are a minor player with 22% I think shares in IEC - they get a dividend for supplying staff but that was an arrangement agreed as in exchange wasps holdings - or ACL if you like - had a 15 year licence

 

[chiefdave]

And do what with them?

They would still be having to deal with the Council. I cannot see that ever working!

I think SISU were on the right track when they tried to get AEG involved. Personally I think if the Ricoh is going to end up a success, and we're nearing a point where the Ricoh will be of an age that it won't be a new and modern facility much longer so it needs to happen sooner rather than later, the best option is to have an organisation like AEG take ownership with the events side as their primary focus and then have CCFC, and probably at this point Wasps, as tenants both on deals that work for the respective clubs.

The sad part is, with AEG in particular, if the council had looked to sell to someone like them rather than Wasps looking at their track record the venue would have a full diary and I would say there's an above 50/50 chance that rather than ship Wasps in they would have put some money into getting CRFC into the Premiership.

 

[shmmeee]

I think SISU were on the right track when they tried to get AEG involved. Personally I think if the Ricoh is going to end up a success, and we're nearing a point where the Ricoh will be of an age that it won't be a new and modern facility much longer so it needs to happen sooner rather than later, the best option is to have an organisation like AEG take ownership with the events side as their primary focus and then have CCFC, and probably at this point Wasps, as tenants both on deals that work for the respective clubs.

The sad part is, with AEG in particular, if the council had looked to sell to someone like them rather than Wasps looking at their track record the venue would have a full diary and I would say there's an above 50/50 chance that rather than ship Wasps in they would have put some money into getting CRFC into the Premiership.

Agree someone like AEG would be best for the Ricoh. On the second point: the council didn’t see CCFC as a long term tenant, still don’t, because CCFC keep saying they aren’t going to be a long term tenant. I doubt the council could’ve got much of anything from the likes of AEG without a tenant for the pitch. When CCFC decided to play take their ball and go home they made the councils decision for them financially.

This is why the tantrum approach to negotiations was always a poor move strategically. We thought we could push them into a corner and forgot pitches can be used for more than football.

It may suck that Wasps are now in the AEG role and they probably won’t sweat the asset as well, but that’s spilt milk now.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

A few posters on here pay way too much attention to things that are not relevant. The reason we are not at the Ricoh is not Clive Eakin and whether he is in the know or not, nor is it the pitch or the pies. It is the state of the relationships between the key individuals that has caused this impasse.
Wasps are in trouble but have a ground, we are in trouble too but don’t have a ground and it is the possibility that both parties can ease the pain, even slightly, that has got them around the table. The only saving grace for both of them is that the vast majority of clubs in both sports are in a desperate situation too.
The caterer is Delaware north by the way.

 

[Grendel]

It depends on how they treat the contribution to the franchisor. Effectively they receive what is tantamount to a loan but "repaid" as a percentage of turnover. So WASPS figure of "profit " is after deducting thus element - it is not the usual measurement of profit

The real issue is the amount of potential revenue the club can gain from it.

Didn't we have an arrangement previously where we were paid profits from parking, corporate and matchday F and B and it came to £72,000? This I think was a turnover of something like £450K. The interesting thing here is the club opted profit over revenue and paying associated costs. If revenue was so important why?

Even if we achieved a 20% margin (ambitious in my view) what would that get us? Luton as an example had £1.2m revenue in a season. We therefore at best can hope for £240,000 profit - is this worth a £40 - £60m investment in a stadium that offers less potential for these revenues anyway?

 

[Grendel]

Eakin wouldn’t know though but it makes a good story that Sisu chose to play away

He might not know but I would guess he'd have an idea what we are paying at Birmingham. No one will really know what proposal would have been at the Ricoh but its pretty obvious the Ricoh would have yielded a better net return off the rental cost.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The real issue is the amount of potential revenue the club can gain from it.

Didn't we have an arrangement previously where we were paid profits from parking, corporate and matchday F and B and it came to £72,000? This I think was a turnover of something like £450K. The interesting thing here is the club opted profit over revenue and paying associated costs. If revenue was so important why?

Even if we achieved a 20% margin (ambitious in my view) what would that get us? Luton as an example had £1.2m revenue in a season. We therefore at best can hope for £240,000 profit - is this worth a £40 - £60m investment in a stadium that offers less potential for these revenues anyway?

Given the restrictions on spending are based on revenues not profits (if they were no-one would have a budget) you'd expect the club to go for the revenue unless it was loss-making overall, which it isn't.

 

[oldfiver]

He might not know but I would guess he'd have an idea what we are paying at Birmingham. No one will really know what proposal would have been at the Ricoh but its pretty obvious the Ricoh would have yielded a better net return off the rental cost.

You are assuming the deal breaker is the level of rent. There could be several other factors such as pitch condition and maintenance; length of lease offered, potential rent increase clauses and are there any additional costs towards a crumbling infrastructure?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Another thing to take into account is Wasp main man Richardson is a successful multi-millionaire and he isn’t going to just sit back and allow an asset such as the Ricoh become available for a company such as sisu to just move in and nick it, steps will be taken long before to prevent that.

Yes, he's already done all that with the complex web of companies that Wasps are indebted to

 

[bawtryneal]

The net profit to the whole group in the accounts has been consistently around 10% of revenue

Two examples that I am aware off and have just collaborated.

SWFC receive 13.5% of total turnover on F &B from their catering partner. The caterer pays all salaries, material costs and pays an upfront fee in support of the infra structure.

RUFC receive 20% of turnover from there partner. However they have to cover costs if games are postponed or cancelled etc.

 

[win9nut]

If wasps are distressed could sisu be interested in acquiring a distressed wasps?

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If CCFC and Wasps were part of the same group, wonder how many would then follow Wasps...

 

[higgs]

And do what with them?

They would still be having to deal with the Council. I cannot see that ever working!

If they see potential in the Ricoh as a whole business as opposed to just the rugby side of things to generate income

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[higgs]

If CCFC and Wasps were part of the same group, wonder how many would then follow Wasps...

If they changed to sky blue shirts you might get a few

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[mr_monkey]

If CCFC and Wasps were part of the same group, wonder how many would then follow Wasps...

Isn't that what Hoffman tried to do with his last "takeover" bid

 

[vow]

On a slight tangent to the weetabix preference, I grew up as having yorkshire puddings as part of Sunday dinner much like the rest of you, but we had them as a desert with golden syrup. To me this was quite normal up until i had dinner at a friends house and seen them on the same plate as the roast! ..with gravy poured over them! I was absolutely fucking horrified, it was like putting a slice of battenberg or a french fancy on your roast dinner and pouring gravy on it.
I've never met anyone else that eats yorkshire pudding this way and now blame it on my mother, she is from Leicester and they are a weird bunch.
My Auntie was born with two thumbs on one hand thereby proving that they are six-fingered. I am not inbred and sometimes still eat yorkshire puddings with golden syrup, i suggest you try it.

Tbf, you're quite right re. Yorkshire puds as a sweet treat.
My Grandma and mum used to eat it with jam and being from up north, it was not unusual and quite the delicacy!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He might not know but I would guess he'd have an idea what we are paying at Birmingham. No one will really know what proposal would have been at the Ricoh but its pretty obvious the Ricoh would have yielded a better net return off the rental cost.

Pre covid yep, post covid not so sure. I don’t disagree that with fans in financially the Ricoh had to be better

Now if Clive eakin was making the point in the round then fair enough if it was to say look at Sisu and ccfc paying more than they needed to at the Ricoh then I’d refer him to the statements from ccfc at the time as to why things didn’t work out. Thankfully we have moved on and they are talking again

 

[Frostie]

Isn't that what Hoffman tried to do with his last "takeover" bid

Yep, tried to have Wasps involved to takeover CCFC. Thankfully Overson washed his hands with the consortium as a result & chose to invest personally instead which has definitely worked out well for us.

Baffling that some still see Hoffman as a white knight.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Tbf, you're quite right re. Yorkshire puds as a sweet treat.
My Grandma and mum used to eat it with jam and being from up north, it was not unusual and quite the delicacy!

I liked savoury ice creams.

Yorkshire pud with a dollop of mash in the middle, sausage sticking out and red or brown sauce.

 

[win9nut]

Yep, tried to have Wasps involved to takeover CCFC. Thankfully Overson washed his hands with the consortium as a result & chose to invest personally instead which has definitely worked out well for us.

Baffling that some still see Hoffman as a white knight.

i was thinking more SISU potentially buying a distressed Wasps...

 

[chiefdave]

Baffling that some still see Hoffman as a white knight.

But things are going so well at the Premier League since he took over in June. Not like the league is on the verge of collapse with the big 6 threatening to leave or anything.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

But things are going so well at the Premier League since he took over in June. Not like the league is on the verge of collapse with the big 6 threatening to leave or anything.

As much as I don't think he's our saviour or anything like that, I think you're being a tad harsh on him there. Talks have been apparently going on since January about this new structure and he's come in at the height of a global pandemic.

Also, I wouldn't say that the big 6 are threatening to leave or the EPL is on verge of collapse. Certainly not because of anything Hoffman has/hasn't done either. He's come in at arguably the toughest time possible with these talks already 5-6 months to the good.

 

[chiefdave]

Also, I wouldn't say that the big 6 are threatening to leave or the EPL is on verge of collapse.

Rumours, which Parry wouldn't dismiss, that if the big 6 don't get their way they will leave the PL and join the EFL. Don't think that would leave the Prem in a very healthy position.

Pray that doesn't happen. Imagine our squad having to go up against Liverpool and Man City in a competitive game.

 

[mr_monkey]

Yep, tried to have Wasps involved to takeover CCFC. Thankfully Overson washed his hands with the consortium as a result & chose to invest personally instead which has definitely worked out well for us.

Baffling that some still see Hoffman as a white knight.

But he sits in the stands and talks to the fans so he has the best interests of the club at heart (forgetting him and his chronies are partly responsible for the mess we find ourselves in currently)

The guy is a banker by trade that should tell anyone anything they need to know about his integrity

 

[Monners]

I don't find it weird, a yorkshire pudding is only a pancake cooked in the oven after all.

I think you’ll find friend that you have 3 eggs and salt in a Yorkshire, whereas a pancake mix only has one egg an no salt.

 

[matesx]

I’m amazed there isnt a European super league in 2020.

Really thought that would have happened by now.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

I seem to be enjoying the Yorkshire pudding and pancake thread far more than the football one!

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I seem to be enjoying the Yorkshire pudding and pancake thread far more than the football one!

But where do you stand on Weetabix with Jam and buttered Farleys Rusks?

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

I’m amazed there isnt a European super league in 2020.

Really thought that would have happened by now.

The super league won’t happen. Short term it will be great - but long term there will be 18/20 teams used to winning not winning anything for a significant period.

ultimately that will hit the glory supporters which follow the elite

The premier league big 6 won’t leave whilst the money is massive. Competing against 5 big clubs whilst earning billions is bad enough for them. Imagine competing against another 14

 

[RegTheDonk]

Yeah and imagine the cost and time flying to Spain or Italy or Germany every other week. Most fans love their away days, it would be very expensive and time consuming.