The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (31 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Im showing this to please educate everyone on the forum to debate like a grown man. After all I’m sure Mr Almonds penis was well grown at this point - though he fired blanks according to The Tonester

Spoiler alert - you will not see grown men or women discussing this on Question Time anytime soon.

If you want to ask me out on a date you could be more direct. Mind you, you don’t need anymore rejection in your life.

 

---

[PVA]

Of course you saw all this coming apparently......Its just a shame not all of us were blessed with the same crystal ball wikipedia page like Mullah Tony.

Err, yes we did all see this coming actually and it did not require a crystal ball, just a bit of common sense.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Didn't need a crystal ball.
Just had a quick think, as a working class man, am I going to benefit from a cause championed by Farage, Bank, Mogg etc?

Didn't take much working out.

Yeah that's the problem. I could actually get onboard with a left wing Brexit, but we were never going to get that.

Well as I've stated before over the long dull years of this thread, that mine was a vote for change, a vote for hope, or at least the possibility of it in the future..... a leap of faith even.

I didn't want to vote to rubber stamp the neoliberal globalized shitfest of the EU where the interests of banks & big business ride roughshod over the interests of citizens and where the poorer sovereign states are shat upon & exploited time & time again.....

Now obviously we've currently ended up with a tory version of that very thing, but we still, as a nation, have the opportunity every 4 or 5 years to change direction, to re-set.

I'm just bored of the same morons parroting shit like "they know what they voted for" (especially from self confessed UKIP/Tory voters)....or posting shit about being mugged off by lies on a bus...no doubt many were.....but clearly there were also many, like me, who were never taken in by any of the tory horseshit......but were just sick of the way the world was heading, had never had a vote that counted for anything ever before & finally saw a glimmer that at that time, here, and in France, Italy, Greece, Holland etc. the common man may finally be rising.....

...Since recently reading some of the other politics thread where the Labour party has been analysed to death, its clear that they will never be the answer.......the only time they've been elected in modern times was when they had a neoliberal warmongering faith school building PFI spending c**t in charge too....

...so I, like many millions of others, am probably done with voting for anything ever again as its a totally pointless exercise, even as a protest, with our broken 2 party system where the red one can only ever win when it turns a cunty shade of blue.

 

[PVA]

or posting shit about being mugged off by lies on a bus...no doubt many were.....but clearly there were also many, like me, who were never taken in by any of the tory horseshit

And that's absolutely fair enough.

But sadly I think that you are in the minority of Leave voters, and that the majority of them were mugged off by a bus and other false promises.

 

[Grendel]

I think I might do a summer quiz with all proceeds going to this;

Brexiteers ask public for ‘treasures’ to put in Museum of Brexit

Organisers want placards, posters and personal correspondence from political battle

www.google.co.uk

Thoughts?

 

[TomRad85]

I think I might do a summer quiz with all proceeds going to this;

Brexiteers ask public for ‘treasures’ to put in Museum of Brexit

Organisers want placards, posters and personal correspondence from political battle

www.google.co.uk

Thoughts?

They could print out this thread and use it as wallpaper in the museum.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And that's absolutely fair enough.

But sadly I think that you are in the minority of Leave voters, and that the majority of them were mugged off by a bus and other false promises.

Even if not, they'd help the swing between a 52 and 48 the other way.

Cameron's biggest crime really, offering a question with no hint as to the answer, so a leave was always likely to leave the majority of the country disappointed, whatever form it took.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well as I've stated before over the long dull years of this thread,

You started the bloody thing, you only have yourself to blame!

 

[clint van damme]

They could print out this thread and use it as wallpaper in the museum.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Wood chip (on the shoulder)

 

[CCFCSteve]

Even if not, they'd help the swing between a 52 and 48 the other way.

Cameron's biggest crime really, offering a question with no hint as to the answer, so a leave was always likely to leave the majority of the country disappointed, whatever form it took.

But you could say that with the catastrophic predictions which swayed people to vote Remain. There was very little quality information/reasoning on either side.

I agree about the outcome part though.The ideal scenario would’ve been to put the final agreed position the government had got to in Dec, with forecasts of impact (pros and cons) to the vote (without having to piss about for four years to get there). We all know the EU wouldn’t have played the game fairly if there was going to be another vote on ‘the deal’ though. That’s not knocking them, why would you offer someone a good deal to leave if you want them and others to stay ?!

Ps my belief (for what is worth) is the reason why this wasn’t included, is the same reason we didn’t get a better deal from Cameron/the EU pre referendum...an arrogance from the political class at home and in the EU. A lack of listening, understanding and addressing people’s concerns

Edit - it’s like the previous Scottish referendum as well, why not say this is the only independence referendum for X years ?! Crazy

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But you could say that with the catastrophic predictions which swayed people to vote Remain. There was very little quality information/reasoning on either side.

I agree about the outcome part though.The ideal scenario would’ve been to put the final agreed position the government had got to in Dec to the vote (without having to piss about for four years to get there). We all know the EU wouldn’t have played the game fairly if there was going to be another vote on ‘the deal’ though. That’s not knocking them, why would you offer someone a good deal to leave if you want them to stay ?!

Ps my belief (for what is worth) is the reason why this wasn’t included, is the same reason we didn’t get a better deal from Cameron/the EU pre referendum...an arrogance from the political class at home and in the EU. A lack of listening, understanding and addressing people’s concerns

Edit - it’s like the previous Scottish referendum as well, why not say this is the only independence referendum for X years ?! Crazy

You could have offered leave IF as options, though.

Leave absolutely.

Leave IF Norway-style reached.

Leave IF...

And offered the opportunity for a return vote if, say, majority (you'd have had to do AV) had come up with leave IF Norway, where the next options were stay, or leave absolutely. Let's face it, surely Leave would have taken that as, if Leave IF Norway couldn't be agreed, it'd be more likely to swing to leave absolutely.

You could also have had stay IF in there too, with the same results if not agreed, where it's stay absolutely, or just sod off.

Would have focussed the minds...

 

[PVA]

But you could say that with the catastrophic predictions which swayed people to vote Remain. There was very little quality information/reasoning on either side.

I disagree here. There were numerous reports/forecasts/analyses on the various impacts of Brexit on whatever subject matter you like, all of which showed negative outcomes.

The arguments for the Leave side had no such reasoning or analysis, just slogans and catchphrases (ideally on a bus).

I do agree though about putting the deal to a vote.

 

[CCFCSteve]

You could have offered leave IF as options, though.

Leave absolutely.

Leave IF Norway-style reached.

Leave IF...

And offered the opportunity for a return vote if, say, majority (you'd have had to do AV) had come up with leave IF Norway, where the next options were stay, or leave absolutely. Let's face it, surely Leave would have taken that as, if Leave IF Norway couldn't be agreed, it'd be more likely to swing to leave absolutely.

You could also have had stay IF in there too, with the same results if not agreed, where it's stay absolutely, or just sod off.

Would have focussed the minds...

I like it in theory....

However, many on here have suggested the UK public, leave voters in particular, are thick so I’m not convinced it’s the best idea.

Also, do you remember when they did something similar in Parliament and the MPs still fucked it up (as too many were still trying to overturn the vote)

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I like it in theory....

However, many on here have suggested the UK public, leave voters in particular, are thick so I’m not convinced it’s the best idea.

Also, do you remember when they did something similar in Parliament and the MPs still fucked it up (as too many were still trying to overturn the vote)

If you're going to have a referendum, then you at least need the outcome in there rather than a woolly abstract thing, which is what we had. Now, should we have referenda, or should we trust our elected representatives as, after all, they (in theory!) will have access to more information than all of us really.

As for said elected representatives, they fucked it up because Lib Dems and Labour, for reasons best known to themselves (purity of political principle by Corbyn? Just plain disliking him from Lib Dems!) didn't unite and come to a focussed offer. Had they done so, they'd have been able to force *something* through... which may have been a compromise, may even have been a second referendum, but they'd have certainly been able to force something through.

For better or worse, Corbyn's as responsible for this shitshow as the current PM, in many ways!

 

[CCFCSteve]

I disagree here. There were numerous reports/forecasts/analyses on the various impacts of Brexit on whatever subject matter you like, all of which showed negative outcomes.

The arguments for the Leave side had no such reasoning or analysis, just slogans and catchphrases (ideally on a bus).

I do agree though about putting the deal to a vote.

But I’ve said before PVA that Leave voters didn’t have economic impact at the forefront in their thinking, so you address the other stuff properly...which was never done

Also, as we’ve all just said, nobody would accurately know/predict the outcome until any deal was agreed (which was a major problem I admit)

All I recall is Osborne and other prominent remainers saying that my house value was going to significantly decrease (it possibly may reduce a little/stabilise and allow young uns on the ladder if we stopped net migration of 300-400k per annum but otherwise how ??), hundreds of thousands out of work, inflation, empty shelves and some kind of financial collapse of the currency and shares values

I don’t doubt some of these issues have/may happen but nowhere near the extent ‘forecasted’. The best case scenario was based on a deal agreed within two years...so we are way past that

Is George Osborne's post-Brexit forecast backed up with evidence?

There is a link to Osbornes predictions in the article. Again, I’m not saying there wasn’t plenty of poor information/BS from the Leave side but to pretend it was one way is crazy. Also, how many Remainers seriously looked into how the EU operates, previous referenda etc etc...my guess, not many, they would’ve listened to the governments predictions though (many without challenge)

 

[CCFCSteve]

If you're going to have a referendum, then you at least need the outcome in there rather than a woolly abstract thing, which is what we had. Now, should we have referenda, or should we trust our elected representatives as, after all, they (in theory!) will have access to more information than all of us really.

As for said elected representatives, they fucked it up because Lib Dems and Labour, for reasons best known to themselves (purity of political principle by Corbyn? Just plain disliking him from Lib Dems!) didn't unite and come to a focussed offer. Had they done so, they'd have been able to force *something* through... which may have been a compromise, may even have been a second referendum, but they'd have certainly been able to force something through.

For better or worse, Corbyn's as responsible for this shitshow as the current PM, in many ways!

Would like to agree with nearly all of that NW* but then I’d be told I’m not owning my decision


* I do by the way

 

[skybluetony176]

I like it in theory....

However, many on here have suggested the UK public, leave voters in particular, are thick so I’m not convinced it’s the best idea.

Also, do you remember when they did something similar in Parliament and the MPs still fucked it up (as too many were still trying to overturn the vote)

Doesn’t the record stand that more leaver voted against the Brexit deals that were presented to Parliament than remainers?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Doesn’t the record stand that more leaver voted against the Brexit deals that were presented to Parliament than remainers?

What I meant, and I might be wrong, if the Remainers had decided on their least worst option they could’ve pushed it through. It’s a while ago but recall these bizarre options votes being put forward

 

[skybluetony176]

What I meant, and I might be wrong, if the Remainers had decided on their least worst option they could’ve pushed it through. It’s a while ago but recall these bizarre options votes being put forward

My memory is that there was always a consensus in Parliament for a Norway deal but May drew her red lines and killed it. Then the ERG voted against her deal having also rejected what essentially became the oven ready Boris deal that Boris said no British PM would or should ever sign, forcing May to resign, Boris purged his party of anyone with an ounce of common sense, forced an election, got a majority, the ERG then threatened to vote against Boris’ deal as its so bad, the Tories then wholesale rejected part of the deal before it limped across the line with both arms tied behind its back at which point everyone realised that Mays deal was actually infinitely better, wouldn’t be causing the issues in NI that are going to ultimately lead to project fear being project here and the Union splitting, the fishermen (the one industry that was absolutely no if no buts going to be a beneficiary of Brexit) being the first victim followed swiftly by the rest of the British food industry. Think that about covers it. Anyway, the point is that no one made Brexit more difficult than leavers, specifically the ERG. They’ll keep pointing the fingers at remainers though and leavers will keep buying it, as you’ve demonstrated perfectly.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

My memory is that there was always a consensus in Parliament for a Norway deal but May drew her red lines and killed it. Then the ERG voted against her deal having also rejected what essentially became the oven ready Boris deal that Boris said no British PM would or should ever sign, forcing May to resign, Boris purged his party of anyone with an ounce of common sense, forced an election, got a majority, the ERG then threatened to vote against Boris’ deal as its so bad, the Tories then wholesale rejected part of the deal before it limped across the line with both arms tied behind its back at which point everyone realised that Mays deal was actually infinitely better, wouldn’t be causing the issues in NI that are going to ultimately lead to project fear being project here and the Union splitting, the fishermen (the one industry that was absolutely no if no buts going to be a beneficiary of Brexit) being the first victim followed swiftly by the rest of the British food industry. Think that about covers it. Anyway, the point is that no one made Brexit more difficult than leavers, specifically the ERG. They’ll keep pointing the fingers at remainers though and leavers will keep buying it, as you’ve demonstrated perfectly.

All can be true, though. The ERG could show themselves duplicitous nutcases, but the opposition could also fail to gather themselves as an opposition.

There were enough Tories who would have come onside with them, if they'd got their act together. That could even have been for a second referendum! The problem was, they ended up so muddled, it was pick a straw and see how long it was.

 

[skybluetony176]

All can be true, though. The ERG could show themselves duplicitous nutcases, but the opposition could also fail to gather themselves as an opposition.

There were enough Tories who would have come onside with them, if they'd got their act together. That could even have been for a second referendum! The problem was, they ended up so muddled, it was pick a straw and see how long it was.

Yeah that’s fair enough. I do remember May saying (especially after the ill fated GE) that parliament needs to come together and then cross party talks never happened. IIRC Corbyn said that May meant everyone agrees with her and her red lines not talk to meet a general consensus so as far as I remember it never got any legs to accomplish anything.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I thought I was going mad for a minute (possible after a year of Covid/lockdowns) but it was the indicative votes I was talking about. This is from wiki (first and second rounds). That’s what I meant NW, I agree, to vote on options would’ve been sensible, however, if that’s the shitshow from the MPs (when most want to remain), what on earth would’ve happened happened if those options were put to public ?!!! Still trying to work out how a predominantly Remain parliament didn’t manage to force through a softer Brexit .

I personally don’t know if it would’ve been possible/a good thing anyway even though I wanted a close trading relationship ie unlikely to have CU without EU wanting to retain FOM, cash and controlling certain rules and regs. In which case you might as well have canned the whole thing anyway, which would’ve damaged public faith in democracy


First Round of Indicative Votes (27 March 2019)Edit
As a result of the first Letwin amendment's success, indicative votes on Parliament's preferred Brexit options were held on 27 March. Eight propositions were voted upon, of which all eight failed.

Motion	Proposer	Ayes	Noes	Abs.	Majority
No Deal	John Baron	160	400	74	240
"Common Market 2.0"	Nick Boles	189	283	162	94
EFTA membership	George Eustice	64	377	193	313
Customs union	Kenneth Clarke	265	271	98	6
Labour alternative	Jeremy Corbyn	237	307	90	70
Revocation to avoid No Deal	Joanna Cherry	184	293	157	109
Referendum on the Withdrawal Agreement	Margaret Beckett	268	295	71	27
"Managed No Deal"	Marcus Fysh	139	422	73	283

In a departure from Westminster parliamentary convention, all eight votes took place simultaneously, using ballot papers, rather than having MPs walk through lobbies to signify their vote.


Second Round of Indicative Votes (1 April 2019)Edit
Further indicative votes were held on 1 April on propositions chosen by the Speaker.[107][108]

Motion	Proposer	Ayes	Noes	Abs.	Majority
with a "Customs Union"	Kenneth Clarke	273	276	85	3
with "Common Market 2.0"	Nick Boles	261	282	91	21
hold a "Confirmatory Public Vote"	Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson	280	292	62	12
"Revocation of Article 50 to avoid No Deal"	Joanna Cherry	191	292	151	101

Once again, in a departure from parliamentary convention, rather than having MPs walk through lobbies to indicate their vote choice, all four votes took place simultaneously using ballot papers.[109]

 

[skybluetony176]

I thought I was going mad for a minute (possible after a year of Covid/lockdowns) but it was the indicative votes I was talking about. This is from wiki (first and second rounds). That’s what I meant NW, I agree, to vote on options would’ve been sensible, however, if that’s the shitshow from the MPs (when most want to remain), what on earth would’ve happened happened if those options were put to public ?!!! Still trying to work out how a predominantly Remain parliament didn’t manage to force through a softer Brexit .

I personally don’t know if it would’ve been possible/a good thing anyway even though I wanted a close trading relationship ie unlikely to have CU without EU wanting to retain FOM, cash and controlling certain rules and regs. In which case you might as well have canned the whole thing anyway, which would’ve damaged public faith in democracy


First Round of Indicative Votes (27 March 2019)Edit
As a result of the first Letwin amendment's success, indicative votes on Parliament's preferred Brexit options were held on 27 March. Eight propositions were voted upon, of which all eight failed.

Motion	Proposer	Ayes	Noes	Abs.	Majority
No Deal	John Baron	160	400	74	240
"Common Market 2.0"	Nick Boles	189	283	162	94
EFTA membership	George Eustice	64	377	193	313
Customs union	Kenneth Clarke	265	271	98	6
Labour alternative	Jeremy Corbyn	237	307	90	70
Revocation to avoid No Deal	Joanna Cherry	184	293	157	109
Referendum on the Withdrawal Agreement	Margaret Beckett	268	295	71	27
"Managed No Deal"	Marcus Fysh	139	422	73	283

In a departure from Westminster parliamentary convention, all eight votes took place simultaneously, using ballot papers, rather than having MPs walk through lobbies to signify their vote.


Second Round of Indicative Votes (1 April 2019)Edit
Further indicative votes were held on 1 April on propositions chosen by the Speaker.[107][108]

Motion	Proposer	Ayes	Noes	Abs.	Majority
with a "Customs Union"	Kenneth Clarke	273	276	85	3
with "Common Market 2.0"	Nick Boles	261	282	91	21
hold a "Confirmatory Public Vote"	Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson	280	292	62	12
"Revocation of Article 50 to avoid No Deal"	Joanna Cherry	191	292	151	101

Once again, in a departure from parliamentary convention, rather than having MPs walk through lobbies to indicate their vote choice, all four votes took place simultaneously using ballot papers.[109]

WPC grendull will be after you for using Wikipedia.

 

[PVA]

At last! A Brexit benefit! All the turmoil, disruption, job losses etc all totally worth it because farmers will be able to claim grants to look after their hedgerows...in 2028

How tampon tax, hedgerows and sanctions have changed since Brexit

Tampon tax, hedgerows and sanctions: what's changed since Brexit?

www.bbc.co.uk

Get in!

 

[wingy]

Intriguing interesting read regardless of who is where on this ,polarising really certainly in this case .

John le Carré, chronicler of Englishness, died Irish, son reveals

Author was so opposed to Brexit that he took Irish citizenship to remain European

www.theguardian.com

 

[PVA]

Brexit is still going well then

 

[PVA]

You won Joe, get over it.

'Harming me and my future': How Brexit is crushing UK pensioners' dreams of retiring abroad

In 2016, Joe thought Brexit was a great idea. But he soon realized his dream of retiring in Spain was going be limited by his new status as a non-EU citizen.

newseu.cgtn.com

 

[clint van damme]

You won Joe, get over it.

'Harming me and my future': How Brexit is crushing UK pensioners' dreams of retiring abroad

In 2016, Joe thought Brexit was a great idea. But he soon realized his dream of retiring in Spain was going be limited by his new status as a non-EU citizen.

newseu.cgtn.com

Why do people like this say no one old us?
They did, and people like you dismissed them.

 

[Skybluefaz]

 

[PVA]

Why do people like this say no one old us?
They did, and people like you dismissed them.

Quite.

Apparently they knew what they voted for though.

Basically they've spent years dodging tax in Spain whilst returning home to use the NHS, exactly the things they moan at immigrants for, and are now crying they can't carry on doing it.

 

[PVA]

Brexit still going well

Of course this is barely being reported on, like the rest of the Brexit shit show.

 

[skybluetony176]

Brexit still going well

Of course this is barely being reported on, like the rest of the Brexit shit show.

It’s like being back in the 70’s. Checkpoints and army patrols will be returning next. Got family members in the PSNI, 1 cousin stationed in Belfast. Thankfully he’s been okay so far although he’s back to checking under his car like his mum and dad (both retired RUC, then PSNI officers) had to in the troubles. Going to be a long summer in Northern Ireland, maybe Covid will stop the 12th happening so at least one flashpoint will be missing.

 

[SBAndy]

It’s like being back in the 70’s. Checkpoints and army patrols will be returning next. Got family members in the PSNI, 1 cousin stationed in Belfast. Thankfully he’s been okay so far although he’s back to checking under his car like his mum and dad (both retired RUC, then PSNI officers) had to in the troubles. Going to be a long summer in Northern Ireland, maybe Covid will stop the 12th happening so at least one flashpoint will be missing.

I’m sure the answer will be far too long and arduous for you to cover off fully, but what exactly do the troubles centre around and why has Brexit accentuated the return of them? Genuine question as I basically know nothing of the NI situation.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m sure the answer will be far too long and arduous for you to cover off fully, but what exactly do the troubles centre around and why has Brexit accentuated the return of them? Genuine question as I basically know nothing of the NI situation.

Basically Brexit has masterminded the exact environment required to trigger a border poll and break the Union up. The more chaotic Brexit is on Northern Ireland the more likely unification of Ireland is. A return to the troubles adds to that chaos.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Basically Brexit has masterminded the exact environment required to trigger a border poll and break the Union up. The more chaotic Brexit is on Northern Ireland the more likely unification of Ireland is. A return to the troubles adds to that chaos.

Better wave that Union flag before it becomes anachronistic