Do you want to discuss boring politics? (228 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Oh yes, that argument. Immigrants can work in the NHS, let's open the borders.

Who said open the borders? You’re adding your own context. Like I said, there is an adult conversation to be had about immigration and effects on the NHS. You clearly don’t want to have it though.

 

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[SBT]

How is it irrevent? If we double the population the ambulance queues are going to go down are they?

Immigration isn't going to double the UK population any time soon - in fact it's pretty much the only thing stopping the population of the UK from falling every year. Is that something you would rather see happen?

 

[shmmeee]

Immigration isn't going to double the UK population any time soon - in fact it's pretty much the only thing stopping the population of the UK from falling every year. Is that something you would rather see happen?

ESB is Bill Gates confirmed!

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Who said open the borders? You’re adding your own context. Like I said, there is an adult conversation to be had about immigration and effects on the NHS. You clearly don’t want to have it though.

Do you think there should be any limits on immigration?

 

[shmmeee]

Do you think there should be any limits on immigration?

Do you think there should be any immigration?

 

[skybluetony176]

How is it irrevent? If we double the population the ambulance queues are going to go down are they?

If you’re having to invent ridiculous scenarios to make your argument you really don’t have an argument.

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you think there should be any limits on immigration?

There is limits on immigration. You’re getting angry over fantasy.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

This is more an argument for killing off pensioners than preventing immigrants.

I have my issues with mass immigration, mostly social cohesion and ghettoisation. But economics ain’t one of them. By any measure they’re a net good. Tend to be some of the most productive members of society, already had their education paid for, not yet a burden on pension and health systems because of their age.

Well the pandemic did a good job of that, which is an uncomfortable conversation many people still don't want to have. The virus didn't really have much direct effect on the young/moderate ages, but for the older population it had a massive impact. Are immigrants contributing to the NHS more than pensioners? I am sure they are, but that still doesn't mean that all immigrants are positively contributing to it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Migration actually brings in a net benefit of taxes, meaning more money to spend on services such as the health service than if they weren't there and, as it's a net benefit (they put in more than they take out), then that means an improvement in services is possible compared to if they weren't igrating to the UK.

As for whether the NHS is worse than during a pandemic? It probably isn't (I've had lots of personal experience of waiting in and around casualty the past 2-3 years) but attention is now focussed on it, without a 'reason' for government to hide behind. It's a shame that support has only extended to clapping on doorsteps, really.

I’m always a bit sceptical about net tax benefit stuff, especially when we’re around time of a pandemic where more people are needing things like doctors, hospitals etc and are probably unable working as much due to illness etc. It will depend on the tax take from migrants, over what period and how much people use public services. I’ve not seen any analysis for recent years

We need more working age people due to an aging population but I’ve said before how how much additional infrastructure (docs, schools, hospital beds, housing etc) do you need to deal with net 300, 400k, 500k per annum. All this takes years and we’ve never caught up.

In the last ten years the country has grown by something like 6% (3.5m+), during half that time it was going through austerity post financial crisis. We have ridiculously low productivity, an aging population and post pandemic where there is a far greater call on nhs, GPs etc. it’s a perfect shitstorm

This isn’t an immigration is bad post. we need a certain amount of net migration and many foreign workers are needed for nhs etc. Just that unless infrastructure keeps up with the increasing numbers there’s going to be strains everywhere in the system.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Do you think there should be any immigration?

Absolutely. I just think the notion that mass migration has no effect on the health system is utter nonsense.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There is limits on immigration. You’re getting angry over fantasy.

No, I am asking you. Do you think there should be any limits on immigration?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It isn't any fancy kind of thinking. It is simple common sense. More people = more strain on the health service. If the capacity of services aren't growing at the same rate, then something has got to give. If you cannot understand that then I think it is you that probably needs to have a word.

But bringing in more money than they take out = more money for NHS. So they could use that to increase capacity to cover the increase in population.

The fact that that money isn't being spent on the NHS (or being used poorly to enrich certain people) is a political one.

 

[shmmeee]

Well the pandemic did a good job of that, which is an uncomfortable conversation many people still don't want to have. The virus didn't really have much direct effect on the young/moderate ages, but for the older population it had a massive impact. Are immigrants contributing to the NHS more than pensioners? I am sure they are, but that still doesn't mean that all immigrants are positively contributing to it.

Not all of any group are. But taking their nationality out of it and speaking purely about economics you want a group of working age people who are driven to improve their lot. On average you don’t find many better than immigrants.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It doesn't matter. We all know the government cannot be trusted to spend the money properly. More people = more demands from the health service. It is extremely basic, but some people cannot possibly bring themselves to challenge the level of immigration so they end up coming out with absolutely crackpot nonsense.

So by your own admission the fault is not with the immigrants. It's with the politicians.

 

[shmmeee]

Absolutely. I just think the notion that mass migration has no effect on the health system is utter nonsense.

What do you think the effect of a British baby boom would be on the health system? Let’s say we all knock up the missus tomorrow, in 20 years would the healthcare system be better or worse?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What do you think the effect of a British baby boom would be on the health system? Let’s say we all knock up the missus tomorrow, in 20 years would the healthcare system be better or worse?

It would be worse. It is a population growth issue at a rate that the infrastructure cannot keep up with. Immigration at the level it has been at for a long time now, is a massive contributor to that.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

All this takes years and we’ve never caught up.

So blame the government that hasn't invested the money that they've gained from migrants, not the migrants. And if you do that, then mentioning immigration is totally redundant as they're no burden on the health service relative to indiginous population and are, in fact, a net benefit.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

So by your own admission the fault is not with the immigrants. It's with the politicians.

The politicians certainly don't help, but as has been said to death, if the infrastructure cannot keep up, something has to give. Therefore a growing society, massively impacted by the numbers of people coming into the country, has a humongous effect on a struggling health service.

 

[SBT]

It would be worse. It is a population growth issue at a rate that the infrastructure cannot keep up with. Immigration at the level it has been at for a long time now, is a massive contributor to that.

So disincentives for people having kids to go hand-in-hand with tighter immigration controls then, right?

 

[skybluetony176]

No, I am asking you. Do you think there should be any limits on immigration?

Of course I do. I’m just willing to look at the full picture so I can form a balanced opinion. Such as you can’t acknowledge that immigration adds to patient numbers without also acknowledging that immigrants pay tax which contributes to the NHS budget and 16.5% of NHS staff are themselves immigrants. How would the NHS cope if it lost almost a fifth of its staff? You seem to have been indoctrinated to only see immigration as a negative so you’re incapable of seeing the benefits.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

So blame the government that hasn't invested the money that they've gained from migrants, not the migrants.

Who is 'blaming the migrants'?

There are a few of you on here trying to take some weird moral high ground on the immigration debate, but you cannot bring yourselves to scrutinise mass migration even one little bit which just looks silly, and therefore is the reason a lot of people will avoid threads like this. It isn't a viewpoint that can be taken seriously. At the same time, you are suggesting anyone that does challenge the levels of immigration is after no immigration at all, or has a problem with foreigners.

You can support a healthy level of immigration and see the disaster that having such an uncontrolled amount has at the same time.

 

[skybluetony176]

So blame the government that hasn't invested the money that they've gained from migrants, not the migrants. And if you do that, then mentioning immigration is totally redundant as they're no burden on the health service relative to indiginous population and are, in fact, a net benefit.

Heard something on the radio the other day that the NHS needs a 5% budget increase year on year just to maintain it’s budget in real terms. It’s apparently averaged 1% a year since the Tories came into power.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Of course I do. I’m just willing to look at the full picture so I can form a balanced opinion. Such as you can’t acknowledge that immigration adds to patient numbers without also acknowledging that immigrants pay tax which contributes to the NHS budget and 16.5% of NHS staff are themselves immigrants. How would the NHS cope if it lost almost a fifth of its staff? You seem to have been indoctrinated to only see immigration as a negative so you’re incapable of seeing the benefits.

What limits do you think there should be then?

No one is saying immigration is a totally negative thing. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of on the other side.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It really is as simple as give the NHS more money.

Think there are structural issues that can be improved? Do that in conjunction with more cash, rather than just using 'efficiency savings' as the lazy catch-all to justify either not increasing, or reducing budgets further.

The rather horrible thought, of course, is that even if we start to train more doctors and nurses now, we won't see the benefit for another 3, 5 years onwards.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Heard something on the radio the other day that the NHS needs a 5% budget increase year on year just to maintain a real terms maintenance of its budget. It’s apparently averaged 1% a year since the Tories came into power.

Right, so if we take your figures and give them the benefit of the doubt, the budget is therefore shrinking by 4% a year.

How can the NHS then support a population that is growing?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The politicians certainly don't help, but as has been said to death, if the infrastructure cannot keep up, something has to give. Therefore a growing society, massively impacted by the numbers of people coming into the country, has a humongous effect on a struggling health service.

It's far more than politicians 'don't help' - they are actively the problem.

The infrastructure can't keep up, but immigrants are net contributors meaning that they are putting in funding to increase and improve that infrastructure.

How much do you think could've been done with the money that was wasted on Test and Trace? How many nurses, doctors and hospitals could that money have provided?

There are way more native people who have a negative impact on the standard and capacity of infrastructure in this country than immigrants;
the wealthy for actively avoiding paying a fair share for the huge benefits they gain from society
those who choose to be economically inactive and take out more than they have contributed
the politicians and power brokers for letting them get away with it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

So blame the government that hasn't invested the money that they've gained from migrants, not the migrants. And if you do that, then mentioning immigration is totally redundant as they're no burden on the health service relative to indiginous population and are, in fact, a net benefit.

I agree with what youre saying. My point was that even if the government spent the cash wisely (which they don’t) there’s always going to have to be a period of catch up on infrastructure and that’s not including throwing a pandemic in the mix. You can’t have a population the size of Cov popping up annually without strains on public services

A bigger issue is probably 9m working age people not working. Post covid there is 2.5m long term sick, 500k more than 2019. That’s a genuinely frightening number but a whole new debate. I’d send the bill to China

 

[shmmeee]

It would be worse. It is a population growth issue at a rate that the infrastructure cannot keep up with. Immigration at the level it has been at for a long time now, is a massive contributor to that.

Why can’t infrastructure keep up with it?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

One of the few things Johnson did that was worthwhile. Why it got taken away in the first place, God only knows.

Tories reinstate student nurse bursaries two years after taking them away

Payments of up to £8,000-a-year will be handed out from September next year, in line with one of the Tories' manifesto pledges.

news.sky.com

Maybe we need to increase it...

 

[skybluetony176]

Right, so if we take your figures and give them the benefit of the doubt, the budget is therefore shrinking by 4% a year.

How can the NHS then support a population that is growing?

The population growing is irrelevant. It can’t even maintain a stagnant population and that’s the real issue.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Why can’t infrastructure keep up with it?

Have you seen how long it takes to build stuff in this country ?!

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It's far more than politicians 'don't help' - they are actively the problem.

The infrastructure can't keep up, but immigrants are net contributors meaning that they are putting in funding to increase and improve that infrastructure.

How much do you think could've been done with the money that was wasted on Test and Trace? How many nurses, doctors and hospitals could that money have provided?

There are way more native people who have a negative impact on the standard and capacity of infrastructure in this country than immigrants;
the wealthy for actively avoiding paying a fair share for the huge benefits they gain from society
those who choose to be economically inactive and take out more than they have contributed
the politicians and power brokers for letting them get away with it.

Right, but we aren't going to kick out native UK people who aren't contributing to the NHS positively, and I have zero faith that the Tories will put more in the coffers. As I said, something has to give.

The whole pandemic was an absolute joke as far as the government is concerned, and I agree with you regarding test and trace etc.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Right, so if we take your figures and give them the benefit of the doubt, the budget is therefore shrinking by 4% a year.

How can the NHS then support a population that is growing?

By getting the government to put that money that the immigrants put in towards the NHS so it can support the growing population.

You're fighting the wrong battle.

 

[shmmeee]

Have you seen how long it takes to build stuff in this country ?!

Get the Chinese in, we’d have ten new hospitals before they reached the end of the immigration queue.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Have you seen how long it takes to build stuff in this country ?!

What are you talking about, haven't you seen our new stadium at Warwick uni?