Andy Thorn back.... (14 Viewers)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Every manager misses out on targets and must cope accordingly. My McGoldrick post was made before he signed and not as dismissive as you imply.

The club won't sign chosen targets, yet you assert he must 'cope' yet equally claim he had free rein?

How contrived can you get?

 

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[SkyblueBazza]

I could do that....

Maybe replace it with an empty space..."Mark Robins is the new manager of Coventry City Football Club" in a vain attempt to get the message across.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The club won't sign chosen targets, yet you assert he must 'cope' yet equally claim he had free rein?

How contrived can you get?

Um, funding was made for as many freebies as he wished once the embargo was lifted.

 

[Grendel]

The club won't sign chosen targets, yet you assert he must 'cope' yet equally claim he had free rein?

How contrived can you get?

If collins was one of his targets are you using that in support of Thorn?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Um, funding was made for as many freebies as he wished once the embargo was lifted.

Nice. So, once an embargo had prevented him signing his chosen players, and excepting those Waggott wouldn't sign (like McGoldrick, except to appease the fans following the farcical sacking), and provided those left were on free, and fitting within our lowly wage structure; then, thereafter, he enjoyed 'free reign'?

Your notion of freedom being akin to Robert Mugabe's

 

[Nick]

Surely working within their means is what makes a good manager?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

If collins was one of his targets are you using that in support of Thorn?

Only within the context that Thorn wanted him and he couldn't sign him. Hence the 'free reign' claim ludicrous.

How Collins subsequently performed - bar scoring today by the way - being incidental. The 'free reign' over chosen targets being my debating point

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Surely working within their means is what makes a good manager?

Give me an example

 

[Grendel]

Give me an example

There are many examples. Moyes at Everton has over achieved relative to spend at the top end. Ronnie Moore at Tranmere certainly fits the bill in our league.

 

[Nick]

Well surely if I had a list of players and got every one I wanted I would make a good manager? When I play FM and enable the cheats and get any player I want i can win the Champions League with Nuneaton....

My point is just surely a decent manager at any club is one who works with what they have and what little they can get and makes the best of it.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

There are many examples. Moyes at Everton has over achieved relative to spend at the top end. Ronnie Moore at Tranmere certainly fits the bill in our league.

Brilliant two examples of managers who have over-achieved.

So you want me to list how many under-achieve? I could fill a thread with Anfield alone.

Do you have a right to expect a manager to over-achieve?

 

[Grendel]

Brilliant two examples of managers who have over-achieved.

So you want me to list how many under-achieve? I could fill a thread with Anfield alone.

Do you have a right to expect a manager to over-achieve?

No but if you end up in the worst league position in 50 years it is ludricous to then give any credit to the manager at the helm. It's so ridiculous it's not worth debating.

For the record I believe Thorn wanted McGoldrick in January - and I suspect he would have been a poor championship player as he was at Forest and Baker was for us.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

No but if you end up in the worst league position in 50 years it is ludricous to then give any credit to the manager at the helm. It's so ridiculous it's not worth debating.

For the record I believe Thorn wanted McGoldrick in January - and I suspect he would have been a poor championship player as he was at Forest and Baker was for us.

But it relative terms, we were funded within the worst of the last 50 years. There may have been times when, in team terms, we were equally poorly funded. But that harks back to my incessant question; do you, or I have a right to an expectation that every CCFC manager has a right to over-achieve and beat the odds? No.

As for McGoldrick? He was identified in January. Waggott, despite being bought in to help in the transfer market, oversaw a net migration of talent; and failed to deliver again in the summer.

Accordingly, I'm sure you'll agree with me that the 'free reign' claim is the work of pantomime?

 

[Grendel]

But it relative terms, we were funded within the worst of the last 50 years. There may have been times when, in team terms, we were equally poorly funded. But that harks back to my incessant question; do you, or I have a right to an expectation that every CCFC manager has a right to over-achieve and beat the odds? No.

As for McGoldrick? He was identified in January. Waggott, despite being bought in to help in the transfer market, oversaw a net migration of talent; and failed to deliver again in the summer.

Accordingly, I'm sure you'll agree with me that the 'free reign' claim is the work of pantomime?

No one has a free reign so that I do not get. What I do get is Thorn was a disastrous choice of manager during a reign when we had a disastrous Chairman - Delieu. The whole period is forgettable.

Yet you still pop up defending the old boy. I guess he must have performed better in Mauritius than he did at the Ricoh.

 

[Grendel]

But it relative terms, we were funded within the worst of the last 50 years. There may have been times when, in team terms, we were equally poorly funded. But that harks back to my incessant question; do you, or I have a right to an expectation that every CCFC manager has a right to over-achieve and beat the odds? No.

As for McGoldrick? He was identified in January. Waggott, despite being bought in to help in the transfer market, oversaw a net migration of talent; and failed to deliver again in the summer.

Accordingly, I'm sure you'll agree with me that the 'free reign' claim is the work of pantomime?

The other curious point about this is that if Southampton had lost today Adkins would almost certainly have been sacked. He had taken the club from League One to the Premiership but as the owners want to stay there they will sack him if he cannot deliver. Yet you and others like you defend someone who was manager at our lowest ebb.

Football is a ruthless business - or it should be. Our passive approach to weak management is partly responsible for our current plight.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But it relative terms, we were funded within the worst of the last 50 years. There may have been times when, in team terms, we were equally poorly funded. But that harks back to my incessant question; do you, or I have a right to an expectation that every CCFC manager has a right to over-achieve and beat the odds? No.

As for McGoldrick? He was identified in January. Waggott, despite being bought in to help in the transfer market, oversaw a net migration of talent; and failed to deliver again in the summer.

Accordingly, I'm sure you'll agree with me that the 'free reign' claim is the work of pantomime?

If being allowed to sign 10 players unopposed isn't free rein I don't know what is. As per usual MMM you take any criticism of the messiah to OTT proportions.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Nice. So, once an embargo had prevented him signing his chosen players, and excepting those Waggott wouldn't sign (like McGoldrick, except to appease the fans following the farcical sacking), and provided those left were on free, and fitting within our lowly wage structure; then, thereafter, he enjoyed 'free reign'?

Your notion of freedom being akin to Robert Mugabe's

The only farcical aspect being it didn't happen in April.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Football is a ruthless business - or it should be. Our passive to weak management is partly responsible for our current plight.

But who sits ultimately accountable? F & W?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But who sits ultimately accountable? F & W?

For sticking by Thorn, yes. That has never been in dispute.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Football is a ruthless business - or it should be. Our passive approach to weak management is partly responsible for our current plight.

But others see our approach to perceived weak managers as being aggressive...& judging by managerial turnover since Snozz - they might have a point.

 

[Grendel]

But others see our approach to perceived weak managers as being aggressive...& judging by managerial turnover since Snozz - they might have a point.

The average shelf life of a manager is 17 months I believe so Thorn lasted the average - and he was very below average.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

If being allowed to sign 10 players unopposed isn't free rein I don't know what is. As per usual MMM you take any criticism of the messiah to OTT proportions.

You claimed his choice was free. I, again, highlighted the folly of your latest childish hyperbole.

You deal in opinions and I in facts. No need for theatrics

 

[Grendel]

For sticking by Thorn, yes. That has never been in dispute.

Definately the decision that is most undefendable was the pathetic weakness they showed in allowing the reign to continue when it was obviious the job was well above his capability. It is like asking a McDonalds worker to work in a Michelin starred resteraunt and they should have dealt with this many months ago.

 

[georgehudson]

grendel, ref osb previous thread, let it lie,
otherwise ken dulieu will come & see you

 

[Grendel]

grendel, ref osb previous thread, let it lie,
otherwise ken dulieu will come & see you

I hope he does - I can't play football so I hope he will give me a 4 year contract.

 

[georgehudson]

he did, i'm surprised he didn't tell you

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The average shelf life of a manager is 17 months I believe so Thorn lasted the average - and he was very below average.

The average could just be a reflection of knee-jerk reactions to a bad run, or megalomaniacs that wish to delegate responsibility whilst retaining too much decision-making capability, or indeed that there are some very poor managers out there.

 

[Grendel]

The average could just be a reflection of knee-jerk reactions to a bad run, or megalomaniacs that wish to delegate responsibility whilst retaining too much decision-making capability, or indeed that there are some very poor managers out there.

Most of the managers sacked by us during the last decade have been justified - Black and Neilson were unjustly dealt with but the rest can have little complaint.

 

[Sick Boy]

This is getting confusing...I thought that only Waggot was responsible for players brought into the club? Now it seems that Thorn was able to dictate who was brought in?

The only logical conclusion is that either those furiously defending him are related to him, or these people are able to identify with him in some way. He should never have been appointed in the first place, it was another poor decision by the club. Yet it seems that there are some who believe that the club showed great vision to appoint him as manager but still criticise the board.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You claimed his choice was free. I, again, highlighted the folly of your latest childish hyperbole.

You deal in opinions and I in facts. No need for theatrics

Hardly hyperbole MMM. The fact is he was allowed a summer to bring in largely his first choice players-and his successor is doing a better job.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

This is getting confusing...I thought that only Waggot was responsible for players brought into the club? Now it seems that Thorn was able to dictate who was brought in?

The only logical conclusion is that either those furiously defending him are related to him, or these people are able to identify with him in some way. He should never have been appointed in the first place, it was another poor decision by the club. Yet it seems that there are some who believe that the club showed great vision to appoint him as manager but still criticise the board.

You're obviously quite easily confused

It was a quite reasonable decision to appoint Thorn after the way he turned around a side that had looked destined for relegation (in my view).

The problem was that the Board then decided to drastically cut the playing squad.

The second decision undermined the first.

Perhaps Thorn would have failed with a side that included King, Turner, Juke and a decent player to replace Gunna (who I thought was always going to leave) and perhaps he'd have succeeded. We'll never know.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Hardly hyperbole MMM. The fact is he was allowed a summer to bring in largely his first choice players-and his successor is doing a better job.

No he wasn't. He was allowed 0% of his preferred strike force for example. Hardly freedom of the city, eh?

And his successor's success has been greatly assisted by virtue of one if the players arriving Waggott was unwilling or unable to secure during Thorn's tenure.

As I state, myopic hyperbole

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No he wasn't. He was allowed 0% of his preferred strike force for example. Hardly freedom of the city, eh?

And his successor's success has been greatly assisted by virtue of one if the players arriving Waggott was unwilling or unable to secure during Thorn's tenure.

As I state, myopic hyperbole

He still went on to sign messrs Ball and Elliott did he not? Tiresome stuff MMM-I'm more enjoying yesterday's 5-0 win if I'm honest.



Still waiting on that pie, too.

 

[dongonzalos]

You're obviously quite easily confused

It was a quite reasonable decision to appoint Thorn after the way he turned around a side that had looked destined for relegation (in my view).

The problem was that the Board then decided to drastically cut the playing squad.

The second decision undermined the first.

Perhaps Thorn would have failed with a side that included King, Turner, Juke and a decent player to replace Gunna (who I thought was always going to leave) and perhaps he'd have succeeded. We'll never know.

Some would say this is quite easy to understand common sense

 

[dongonzalos]

Hardly hyperbole MMM. The fact is he was allowed a summer to bring in largely his first choice players-and his successor is doing a better job.

At the begining of the season BSB, how long did you say AT should have before he should be sacked if it is not happening.