Do you want to discuss boring politics? (181 Viewers)

[nicksar]

Disagree. And 50% of school leavers don’t go to uni, it’s more like 30% but 50% of adults (I think) do over their lifetime.

But uni shouldn’t be to get you a job and that’s not why the wealthy send their kids to it (for all his bluster I guarantee Sunak kids will all go). It should be to train you in higher level thinking which applies anywhere.

Business needs to be better at picking up grads and non grads and moulding them into productive workers.

Problem is that now we don’t have long term employment there’s less incentive to do so. Not sure how you square that circle. Government is too slow to be reactive to market needs and business needs guarantees they aren’t wasting cash on someone who won’t pay it back.

The 2nd paragraph of the post is absolutely spot on,I see it daily on here...and also see it with the two of my children that attended University.

 

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[MalcSB]

I am part of the electorate and I don't believe immigration is an issue. The electorate isn't just Daily Mail/Express readers you ueknow. It has just been weaponised by the Tories to create a scapegoat for their failings in running the country. Virtually all studies have shown immigrants create more wealth for the country than they take out. And the NHS and social care in particular would be decimated without immigration.

OK tell me how Farage's differ from the Groups you mention in Germany and Italy. I guess you support the Rwanda policy? Tell me how that differs from the National Front's central policy in the 1980s.

I am also part of the electorate and I do think immigration is an issue.
Something needs to be done about illegal immigration in the immediate short term Anyone who has reached Europe does not need to come to the UK to be safe.
Legal immigration needs to be addressed in the medium to long term. Why do we need to import healthcare workers? At the high skills end, restricting numbers of medical school places is madness, the limit should be the number of people academically good enough to successfully complete the course.

 

[MalcSB]

Farage does want fewer immigrants, but not too many fewer as otherwise he would have no one to scapegoat, and thus no point.

It's like when Brexit happened the Tories could no longer blame our shortcomings on Europe, so it all falls to them now.

Brexit simply has not been fully or properly implemented, we can still blame some stuff on Europe.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

When was it - certainly not in 1980’s Britain!

You think the origins of socialism were in 1980s Britain?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

He's shared a platform with and endorsed AfD in the past.

The AfD has appeared to become increasingly radical since 2019 who appear to have met with neo-Nazi groups to plan mass deportations and so on.

Corbyn shared platforms with ‘friends’ in Hamas and the IRA - would you describe him as a sympathiser or supporter?

Socialism was originally an internationalist movement. In this country there are elements of the left who see it more in terms of protectionism and isolationism, so that is why I used the word intrinsic.

Why have socialist and communist governments produced some of the most closed societies in history?

 

[Grendel]

You think the origins of socialism were in 1980s Britain?

Well no but you are I’m afraid talking nonsense. Marx opposed migration. The Lenin inspired revolution opposed it. Gueverra was a hideous racist.

You are not a socialist and in the end anti capitalist ideology is protectionist and values non democratic means of governance

 

[Deleted member 9744]

The AfD has appeared to become increasingly radical since 2019 who appear to have met with neo-Nazi groups to plan mass deportations and so on.

Corbyn shared platforms with ‘friends’ in Hamas and the IRA - would you describe him as a sympathiser or supporter?



Why have socialist and communist governments produced some of the most closed societies in history?

I am sure Farage supports the recent round up of immigrants and proposed deportations to Rwanda, and I understand he would argue that doesn't go far enough.

Now you seem to have a problem with the word intrinsic.

 

[Grendel]

I am sure Farage supports the recent round up of immigrants and proposed deportations to Rwanda, and I understand he would argue that doesn't go far enough.

Now you seem to have a problem with the word intrinsic.

Socialism intrinsically opposes migration. Show examples where it doesn’t.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I am sure Farage supports the recent round up of immigrants and proposed deportations to Rwanda, and I understand he would argue that doesn't go far enough.

Now you seem to have a problem with the word intrinsic.

No, I understand what intrinsic mean. The problem is, you talk as if we haven’t seen what ‘far left’ policies in practice look like.

 

[shmmeee]

Socialism was originally an internationalist movement. In this country there are elements of the left who see it more in terms of protectionism and isolationism, so that is why I used the word intrinsic.

Yeah we want all workers liberated, the question is what do we do before then?

Practically though if you implement socialism with open borders it can’t work in a single country. Let’s say we brought UBI in and had no immigration controls for example.

The answer is “well make every other country just as rich/socialist”, but that’s classic left wing “well I wouldn’t start from here”ism.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Well no but you are I’m afraid talking nonsense. Marx opposed migration. The Lenin inspired revolution opposed it. Gueverra was a hideous racist.

You are not a socialist and in the end anti capitalist ideology is protectionist and values non democratic means of governance

I am not aware of ever claiming to be socialist, but clearly I know a lot more about it than you do.

 

[Sick Boy]

I am also part of the electorate and I do think immigration is an issue.
Something needs to be done about illegal immigration in the immediate short term Anyone who has reached Europe does not need to come to the UK to be safe.
Legal immigration needs to be addressed in the medium to long term. Why do we need to import healthcare workers? At the high skills end, restricting numbers of medical school places is madness, the limit should be the number of people academically good enough to successfully complete the course.

It's inevitable that people will travel to the UK due to the language and family. The number of people landing in the UK compared to countries like Italy is nothing at all.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Socialism intrinsically opposes migration. Show examples where it doesn’t.

No it doesn't.

 

[Grendel]

I am not aware of ever claiming to be socialist, but clearly I know a lot more about it than you do.

Well that’s great so give examples of countries that practice socialism who have open borders.

 

[Grendel]

No it doesn't.

Examples please.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

No, I understand what intrinsic mean. The problem is, you talk as if we haven’t seen what ‘far left’ policies in practice look like.

No but we have seen what far right looks like ie the Rwanda scheme and it's not just immoral, probably illegal but also expensive and ineffective.

 

[Sick Boy]

Disagree. And 50% of school leavers don’t go to uni, it’s more like 30% but 50% of adults (I think) do over their lifetime.

But uni shouldn’t be to get you a job and that’s not why the wealthy send their kids to it (for all his bluster I guarantee Sunak kids will all go). It should be to train you in higher level thinking which applies anywhere.

Business needs to be better at picking up grads and non grads and moulding them into productive workers.

Problem is that now we don’t have long term employment there’s less incentive to do so. Not sure how you square that circle. Government is too slow to be reactive to market needs and business needs guarantees they aren’t wasting cash on someone who won’t pay it back.

I went to a very (left-wing) London-centric south coast university with mostly privately educated students...I'd never seen anything like it. To be honest, I found it very difficult at first but I think overall it left me in a better place for going and probably made me a better person.

It made zero difference for my job though.

 

[Grendel]

No but we have seen what far right looks like ie the Rwanda scheme and it's not just immoral, probably illegal but also expensive and ineffective.

Labour said they will consider a third party arrangement? Blair once considered housing immigrants on some remote Scottish Island

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Examples please.

This is tiresome. I was talking about an ideology but you keep bringing it back to examples. Surely you understand the difference?

 

[Grendel]

This is tiresome. I was talking about an ideology but you keep bringing it back to examples. Surely you understand the difference?

Who created the socialist ideology?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yeah we want all workers liberated, the question is what do we do before then?

Practically though if you implement socialism with open borders it can’t work in a single country. Let’s say we brought UBI in and had no immigration controls for example.

The answer is “well make every other country just as rich/socialist”, but that’s classic left wing “well I wouldn’t start from here”ism.

The societal impact of importing 750k people is a huge. There’s housing, education and the NHS to consider as well as infrustructure like public transport and roads. That’s without considering cultural factors like social cohesion and so on.

I’m not saying this because of our previous topics of convo…

 

[nicksar]

I went to a very (left-wing) London-centric south coast university with mostly privately educated students...I'd never seen anything like it. To be honest, I found it very difficult at first but I think overall it left me in a better place for going and probably made me a better person.

It made zero difference for my job though.

Which Uni?...my eldest daughter went to Sussex and experienced exactly the same thing re privately educated students.
I'm guessing Sussex because I recall you love Brighton as does my daughter.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Who created the socialist ideology?

Have a read.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No but we have seen what far right looks like ie the Rwanda scheme and it's not just immoral, probably illegal but also expensive and ineffective.

Australia inspired the Rwanda policy. Would you say Australia is run by a ‘far right’ Labor government?

In fact, many EU countries are going to consider adopting schemes like the Rwanda scheme.

Controlling your borders is a politically neutral. If Labour has an alternative policy for controlling illegal immigration and ‘small boat’ crossings, I’m all ears for it.

 

[Grendel]

Have a read.

oh dear

 

[Deleted member 9744]

The societal impact of importing 750k people is a huge. There’s housing, education and the NHS to consider as well as infrustructure like public transport and roads. That’s without considering cultural factors like social cohesion and so on.

I’m not saying this because of our previous topics of convo…

We need immigrants in the NHS.

'Cultural factors'? Please explain.

 

[Sick Boy]

Which Uni?...my eldest daughter went to Sussex and experienced exactly the same thing re privately educated students.
I'm guessing Sussex because I recall you love Brighton as does my daughter.

Spot on! I ended up enjoying it, but the first few months were very difficult.
When did she go?

 

[clint van damme]

The AfD has appeared to become increasingly radical since 2019 who appear to have met with neo-Nazi groups to plan mass deportations and so on.

Corbyn shared platforms with ‘friends’ in Hamas and the IRA - would you describe him as a sympathiser or supporter?



Why have socialist and communist governments produced some of the most closed societies in history?

Why do people constantly bring up Corbyn, it's bizarre.
But I would say Corbyn sympathised with Irish nationalism, was it misguided to meet senior figures in the Provisionals? I'd say so, some people might not.
I'd caveat by saying misguided to publicly meet senior figures as Thatchers government had back channels with them for years which probably paved the way for the GFA.

And I would say Farage is certainly sympathetic to some of the AfDs more extreme policies though he doesn't get on with front nationale but that could be a clash of egos, because that man's ego is huge!

 

[Deleted member 9744]

oh dear

I am not your teacher

 

[nicksar]

Spot on! I ended up enjoying it, but the first few months were very difficult.
When did she go?

She's 38 now but didn't decide to go to Uni until she was 22 so 2008 was her first year,she did a 4 year degree because she elected to go to a uni in America for her third year.

 

[Grendel]

I am not your teacher

Sorry everyone thinks you are wrong. It’s down to you to provide evidence to the contrary.

 

[MalcSB]

Socialism intrinsically opposes migration. Show examples where it doesn’t.

So Blair and Brown intrinsically weren’t Socialists?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We need immigrants in the NHS.

'Cultural factors'? Please explain.

Not all immigrants go into the NHS. In fact, our reliance on migrant healthcare workers is a result of failures in policy elsewhere e.g. caps on uni places and stagnant wages in the NHS.

As for cultural factors, we want people to assimilate and share values of openness, religious/political freedom and so on.

 

[MalcSB]

It's inevitable that people will travel to the UK due to the language and family. The number of people landing in the UK compared to countries like Italy is nothing at all.

They have no need to. Refugee status is a question of need due to persecution, fear for life, it’s not a question of wants or preferences- get to Europe and they are safe.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Sorry everyone thinks you are wrong. It’s down to you to provide evidence to the contrary.

You may think I am wrong but I am not. Socialism is not intrinsically anti immigration. It started as an internationalist movement. I am not going to give you a history lesson on it.