Do you want to discuss boring politics? (118 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Again, how exactly do you determine that? You can’t speak for the safety of 30 other countries.

Nah come on man. I agree that we should take our fair share and that the madcap schemes the Tories come up with are both cruel and useless. But pretending the EU isn’t safe?

 

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[shmmeee]

We can fit loads more people in too.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It's not possible, of course, to be an illegal asylum seeker. Just clarifying that (again).

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We take a fraction compared to countries like Germany, Greece and Italy.

Take a look at the political climate of said countries. Specifically how well their far right parties are doing - Greece has got multiple successor neo-nazi organisations to Golden Dawn.

 

[Ian1779]

What

What military action are we currently engaged in?

We were involved in Afghanistan until recently, we sell a large amount of weapons into the Middle East too. All of which has displaced a large amount of people.

 

[shmmeee]

Did you

Did you read what I was responding to, there is no need for people to come to UK to escape persecution, they are safein Europe. They do not arrive here directly from their country of origin.

How are they going to? We’re an island in the middle of a bunch of first world nations.

 

[Sick Boy]

It's not possible, of course, to be an illegal asylum seeker. Just clarifying that (again).

Having been to Lampedusa and seeing people brought in on boats while driving one myself, the reality is quite different to what people like Farage will have you believe

 

[shmmeee]

We were involved in Afghanistan until recently, we sell a large amount of weapons into the Middle East too. All of which has displaced a large amount of people.

Don’t most of our immigrants come from Ukraine, Hong Kong and other than that India, China, Pakistan and Nigeria right now?

 

[Sick Boy]

Take a look at the political climate of said countries. Specifically how well their far right parties are doing - Greece has got multiple successor neo-nazi organisations to Golden Dawn.

In reality Italy is no different compared to other PMs being in charge as a result of the constitution.

 

[Ian1779]

Nah come on man. I agree that we should take our fair share and that the madcap schemes the Tories come up with are both cruel and useless. But pretending the EU isn’t safe?

I’m not pretending it isn’t safe. But seeing as we take a tiny proportion compared to Europe then maybe those that get us have done so for other reasons like family connections and support networks.

 

[shmmeee]

29k in small boats last year. 253k from India, 141k from Nigeria.

If it’s numbers you’re worried about why focus on asylum seekers?

 

[MalcSB]

How are they going to? We’re an island in the middle of a bunch of first world nations.

Precisely. I thought the first safe country they reach has an obligation to take them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We can fit loads more people in too.

Our infrastructure? Bearing in mind we’re importing a population equivalent of a 2 Coventrys. Net migration in 1997 was around 50k.

At one point, 25% of asylum claims of small boat crossing were from Albania. Which is a safe country. The system is clearly broken and schemes being abused.

 

[MalcSB]

That

I’m not pretending it isn’t safe. But seeing as we take a tiny proportion compared to Europe then maybe those that get us have done so for other reasons like family connections and support networks.

That’s a want not a need.

 

[shmmeee]

Precisely. I thought the first safe country they reach has an obligation to take them.

So in your world we would never take any.

I don’t think asylum seekers have an obligation to claim in the first country they land in. They do though. Neighbouring countries take an order of magnitude more.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'd ask anybody to talk to asylum seekers, of the horrors they faced and their desperation to flee... and of their love for the country that gave them sanctuary, opportunity to repay that kindness, and to set up home when they have been dispossessed.

It might stop some of the demonisation.

 

[shmmeee]

Our infrastructure? Bearing in mind we’re importing a population equivalent of a 2 Coventrys. Net migration in 1997 was around 50k.

At one point, 25% of asylum claims of small boat crossing were from Albania. Which is a safe country. The system is clearly broken and schemes being abused.

Our infrastructure is whatever we want it to be. The idea that “we’re a small country” is bollocks. Loads of room if we want.

 

[shmmeee]

Our infrastructure? Bearing in mind we’re importing a population equivalent of a 2 Coventrys. Net migration in 1997 was around 50k.

At one point, 25% of asylum claims of small boat crossing were from Albania. Which is a safe country. The system is clearly broken and schemes being abused.

Which Indians and Nigerians would you reject?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Let's not confuse or conflate economic migrants (generally net contributors to the economy, so offer more cash to build houses etc than if they weren't here) with asylum seekers.

That's a classic righty schtick.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

29k in small boats last year. 253k from India, 141k from Nigeria.

If it’s numbers you’re worried about why focus on asylum seekers?

Well, this is a symbolic issue, isn’t it? If we can’t sort out something like illegal immigration, how do we possibly sort out legal immigration?

Again, if we strive to be a high wage economy, this isn’t the way to do it and ironically, given the people supporting mass immigration, it’s a dream of big business. It’s no coincidence that growth has been sluggish since the advent of mass immigration post-1997.

Japan and Australia are the models to follow and no one is calling the Japanese or Australian governments far right.

 

[Sick Boy]

Well, this is a symbolic issue, isn’t it? If we can’t sort out something like illegal immigration, how do we possibly sort out legal immigration?

Again, if we strive to be a high wage economy, this isn’t the way to do it and ironically, given the people supporting mass immigration, it’s a dream of big business. It’s no coincidence that growth has been sluggish since the advent of mass immigration post-1997.

Japan and Australia are the models to follow and no one is calling the Japanese or Australian governments far right.

Yeah, Australia is a really open-minded country.

 

[shmmeee]

Well, this is a symbolic issue, isn’t it? If we can’t sort out something like illegal immigration, how do we possibly sort out legal immigration?

Again, if we strive to be a high wage economy, this isn’t the way to do it and ironically, given the people supporting mass immigration, it’s a dream of big business. It’s no coincidence that growth has been sluggish since the advent of mass immigration post-1997.

Japan and Australia are the models to follow and no one is calling the Japanese or Australian governments far right.

Japan is fucked and hasn’t grown in decades.

Australia lets in about the same amount per capita as we do if you exclude Ukraine and Hong Kong.

And lots of people call the Australian and Japanese immigration policies far right.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Which Indians and Nigerians would you reject?

Why do you continue to do this? You deliberately take someone’s words and twist them.

Our infrastructure is whatever we want it to be. The idea that “we’re a small country” is bollocks. Loads of room if we want.

Well, not all the land is habitable so the ‘only 3% of the space is used’ is equally a false narrative.

More importantly, you need housing, roads, hospitals, schools and more. Who’s paying for all of this? There comes a point of diminishing returns on mass immigration and we’re probably at that level now. Again, the IFS* predicts an estimated £100 billion in expenditure to maintain public services by 2030. So, there’s a stark cost to mass immigration.

*The source for that figure is the one you cited 1.7bn figure for Labour’s private education VAT policy.

 

[Ian1779]

At one point, 25% of asylum claims of small boat crossing were from Albania. Which is a safe country. The system is clearly broken and schemes being abused.

Yet no coherent policy around how to break the mechanism that allows this to happen.
Just send off the victims to Rwanda.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Japan is fucked and hasn’t grown in decades.

Australia lets in about the same amount per capita as we do if you exclude Ukraine and Hong Kong.

And lots of people call the Australian and Japanese immigration policies far right.

Yes. Australia’s system is highly selective with quotas to numbers coming in. They have a policy to process asylum seekers in a 3rd country - Papa New Guinea.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yet no coherent policy around how to break the mechanism that allows this to happen.
Just send off the victims to Rwanda.

What’s the alternative though? We couldn’t process anyone in the EU, for example. We’re trying to work with the EU (France) on this. If anything, Europe is starting to agree with the logic of processing in third countries.

I’m open minded to practical solutions rather than platitudes. Labour’s policy appears identical to the government minus Rwanda.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What’s the alternative though?

We do our duty by asylum seekers rather than treating them like cattle. the issue isn't the numbers, the issue is the time to reach a decision (increased dramatically recently) and the system for repatriating if the claim is rejected.

It's worth noting that the majority of claims for asylum are accepted...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We do our duty by asylum seekers rather than treating them like cattle. the issue isn't the numbers, the issue is the time to reach a decision (increased dramatically recently) and the system for repatriating if the claim is rejected.

It's worth noting that the majority of claims for asylum are accepted...

Again, there have been flaws in the acceptance processes too. Unfortunately, often a front for nasty people smuggling rings too.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Again, there have been flaws in the acceptance processes too. Unfortunately, often a front for nasty people smuggling rings too.

This is very much looking like a campaign to demonise the needy and helpless, so I'm out.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Well, this is a symbolic issue, isn’t it? If we can’t sort out something like illegal immigration, how do we possibly sort out legal immigration?

Again, if we strive to be a high wage economy, this isn’t the way to do it and ironically, given the people supporting mass immigration, it’s a dream of big business. It’s no coincidence that growth has been sluggish since the advent of mass immigration post-1997.

Japan and Australia are the models to follow and no one is calling the Japanese or Australian governments far right.

Net migration into the UK has slowed down significantly in parallel with the economy. How on earth can adding more people be a drain on the value of goods and services being sold?

The UK net migration rate is significantly lower than the USA.

 

[shmmeee]

Why do you continue to do this? You deliberately take someone’s words and twist them.



Well, not all the land is habitable so the ‘only 3% of the space is used’ is equally a false narrative.

More importantly, you need housing, roads, hospitals, schools and more. Who’s paying for all of this? There comes a point of diminishing returns on mass immigration and we’re probably at that level now. Again, the IFS* predicts an estimated £100 billion in expenditure to maintain public services by 2030. So, there’s a stark cost to mass immigration.

*The source for that figure is the one you cited 1.7bn figure for Labour’s private education VAT policy.

Your main complaint seemed to be that we don’t have the infrastructure for the current immigration numbers. So instead of worrying about 30k people fleeing war why not just stop some of the huge numbers of economic migrants from those countries?

Or we can not take the Ukrainians and Hong Kongers? There’s no twisting here. It’s just you want to avoid the consequences of your desired policy aims likely for the same reason the Tories and Farage do; it’s easier to pick on people on boats than people handed a visa by the government.

 

[shmmeee]

Fact is large amounts of it are students and those students pay for our students. Another large chunk are healthcare workers.

The idea you can cut immigration significantly and not pay huge costs elsewhere is a fantasy. Do we put up student fees? Pay even more for care?

Personally I’d be happy to reduce the numbers from India and Nigeria and Pakistan and instead go back to it being Eastern Europeans as I think generally there’s fewer social issues and fewer push factors. But the people have spoken with Brexit.

 

[shmmeee]

Also as for “we can’t build fast enough!!”

This is the UK population over the last 150 years or so, it’s basically linear. We’ve handled it before and could again.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Your main complaint seemed to be that we don’t have the infrastructure for the current immigration numbers. So instead of worrying about 30k people fleeing war why not just stop some of the huge numbers of economic migrants from those countries?

Or we can not take the Ukrainians and Hong Kongers? There’s no twisting here. It’s just you want to avoid the consequences of your desired policy aims likely for the same reason the Tories and Farage do; it’s easier to pick on people on boats than people handed a visa by the government.

I said that illegal immigration was symbolic more than anything. The focus needs to be on reducing low skill, low wage migration and I don’t understand why people of the left would oppose that.

To change the topic slightly because immigration is not a policy priority for me and never has been and probably never will be.

What are you actually dissatisfied with? When we talk about the state of the country, be it the NHS, education and immigration… it doesn’t seem like you want to change anything. Not in a facetious way, I just want to see things from your POV.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Our infrastructure is whatever we want it to be. The idea that “we’re a small country” is bollocks. Loads of room if we want.

A lot of the unbuilt areas aren't suitable. And if we start getting rid of green spaces and cutting down forest the physical and mental health of the country will drop off a cliff.