Fisher & Compass (1 Viewer)

[oldskyblue58]

Just wanted to clear up something

TF went on about Compass owning the catering rights and having paid 4m for them

THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS

ACL own 77% of a company called IEC Experience Limited which operates the stadium for ACL. ACL sold the other 23% to Compass for 4m.

So ACL because it owns more than 75% of IEC is deemed to control that company and its operations. Yes ACL would talk to its fellow shareholder about a change in operations (say to let CCFC have a share of the income, declare the sales as CCFC 's but be reinvoiced etc) but ACL has outright control and could sanction a deal.

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

 

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[sylus]

If TF said it was sunshining outside,i would have to go and check first,i dont believe a word that maggot says.

 

[sylus]

And who cares about the catering.it was crap anyway.

 

[Chipfat]

Any other points or bending of the truths you picked up last night OSB

 

[grego_gee]

Just wanted to clear up something

TF went on about Compass owning the catering rights and having paid 4m for them

THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS

ACL own 77% of a company called IEC Experience Limited which operates the stadium for ACL. ACL sold the other 23% to Compass for 4m.

So ACL because it owns more than 75% of IEC is deemed to control that company and its operations. Yes ACL would talk to its fellow shareholder about a change in operations (say to let CCFC have a share of the income, declare the sales as CCFC 's but be reinvoiced etc) but ACL has outright control and could sanction a deal.

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

And the rest of the story is?........

IEC Experience Limited was only set up in the last year of ACL's accounts and provided them with an influx of £4m

without which they would have been insolvent?

imp:

 

[shropshirecov]

I've no time for Sisu whatsoever, but ACL have milked the football club dry. Can't understand why there has not been a backlash against them.

 

[oldskyblue58]

well since you asked ............

The £4m that IEC received from Compass was used to buy a 15year licence from ACl its parent company. That 4m was is then being spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh.

The trade that was previously in ACL (exhibitions, conferences, catering, stadium facility management etc now sits in IEC)

So they were left as a group with Net total Assets, net current assets, no auditors comment about going concernn and it would seem paying their bills as they fall due .............. so passed the test for solvency ...................

 

[grego_gee]

well since you asked ............

The £4m that IEC received from Compass was used to buy a 15year licence from ACl its parent company. That 4m was is then being spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh.

The trade that was previously in ACL (exhibitions, conferences, catering, stadium facility management etc now sits in IEC)

So they were left as a group with Net total Assets, net current assets, no auditors comment about going concernn and it would seem paying their bills as they fall due .............. so passed the test for solvency ...................

I sometimes wonder where you are coming from ob.
The phrase "spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh." I seem to remember is one PWKH used when saying where all ACL profits went.

It's one that I think is a bit of a smokescreen, saying you have spent the profits does not mean you have made any or not benefited from them!

I had noticed the creation of IEC and it seems to me its effect is to further tie up the F&B revenues and put them further out of reach of whoever owns CCFC.

Do you see it as beneficial to CCFC?

imp:

 

[fernandopartridge]

Just wanted to clear up something

TF went on about Compass owning the catering rights and having paid 4m for them

THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS

ACL own 77% of a company called IEC Experience Limited which operates the stadium for ACL. ACL sold the other 23% to Compass for 4m.

So ACL because it owns more than 75% of IEC is deemed to control that company and its operations. Yes ACL would talk to its fellow shareholder about a change in operations (say to let CCFC have a share of the income, declare the sales as CCFC 's but be reinvoiced etc) but ACL has outright control and could sanction a deal.

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

£4m for a 23% stake? That sounds quite high to me. Is that right?

 

[fernandopartridge]

I sometimes wonder where you are coming from ob.
The phrase "spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh." I seem to remember is one PWKH used when saying where all ACL profits went.

It's one that I think is a bit of a smokescreen, saying you have spent the profits does not mean you have made any or not benefited from them!

I had noticed the creation of IEC and it seems to me its effect is to further tie up the F&B revenues and put them further out of reach of whoever owns CCFC.

Do you see it as beneficial to CCFC?

imp:

I don't think ACL could pay out a dividend anyway with the debt hanging over their own heads.

 

[oldskyblue58]

What you mean like being able to buy out ACL's shares in IEC and owning the income streams by one simple transaction................that kind of further away thing?

Well to be able to spend profits then kind of implies you had the cash in the first place doesnt it

The information is direct from the filed published accounts

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

Just wanted to clear up something

The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC

just as an aside the lease provides the club with 900 car park spaces and a potential income of £207k

So in other words, for the books we can say F&B delivers a profit of 800 k, but we actually receive 100k?

 

[oldskyblue58]

So in other words, for the books we can say F&B delivers SALES of 800 k, but we actually receive 100k?

have adjusted SBS

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

Thanks, Sales of 800k does not sound a lot. Especially as Fisher stated Charlton bought in 1.8 million in sales....

 

[RPHunt]

A question for oldskyblue58.

Fisher made a big case last night for the mess the accounts were in when SISU took over. I know you don't have access to the details, but how much of this would have been evident at the time of the takeover if a thorough audit had been conducted? Or is this further evidence (to go with the lack of legal advice over existing contracts) that SISU skimped on and rushed and botched the whole takeover.

 

[James Smith]

Thanks, Sales of 800k does not sound a lot. Especially as Fisher stated Charlton bought in 1.8 million in sales....

Still a lot more than we get at the moment and Fisher still turned it down.

 

[James Smith]

A question for oldskyblue58.

Fisher made a big case last night for the mess the accounts were in when SISU took over. I know you don't have access to the details, but how much of this would have been evident at the time of the takeover if a thorough audit had been conducted? Or is this further evidence (to go with the lack of legal advice over existing contracts) that SISU skimped on and rushed and botched the whole takeover.

You'd hope with a partner of a large law firm on the old board they were getting decent legal advice!

 

[oldskyblue58]

A question for oldskyblue58.

Fisher made a big case last night for the mess the accounts were in when SISU took over. I know you don't have access to the details, but how much of this would have been evident at the time of the takeover if a thorough audit had been conducted? Or is this further evidence (to go with the lack of legal advice over existing contracts) that SISU skimped on and rushed and botched the whole takeover.

Proper due diligence should have identified it. Starting point for every audit or due diligence is know your client. You can not plan your work unless you do that. Didnt TF say BDO carried out the due diligence ? So you might expect it to be reasonably thorough or to at least understand who the subject was and what each component did

 

[grego_gee]

What you mean like being able to buy out ACL's shares in IEC and owning the income streams by one simple transaction................that kind of further away thing?

Well to be able to spend profits then kind of implies you had the cash in the first place doesnt it

The information is direct from the filed published accounts

ACL decided to set up IEC at a time after SISU/CCFC had said the F&B revenue was essential income they needed for FFP.
Did ACL offer the franchise to SISU/CFFC or just set up IEC without asking?

How tiring this is!

Is the phrase "spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh." in the accounts?
If it is, missed it!

imp:

 

[oldskyblue58]

Thanks, Sales of 800k does not sound a lot. Especially as Fisher stated Charlton bought in 1.8 million in sales....

I wouldnt mind betting that the £1.8m refers to the F&B's for 365 days of the year. What ACL offered was the F&B's from match days

 

[grego_gee]

So in other words, for the books we can say F&B delivers a profit of 800 k, but we actually receive 100k?

We don't receive any of it. The point TF was trying to express. Which is not contradicted by what OSB has said, is that only £100,000 was offered and was not worth pursuing!
He would have expected to be able to realise a profit of 40% on a possible turnover of £1.8 which would be £720,000 income, which would boost our playing budget under FFP by £432k, this would be an increase of 21% on our projected salary cap of £2m next year, and would make a noticeable difference!

Sadly this is not available to even ask for under the current ACL/CCC regime.

imp:

 

[James Smith]

Is the phrase "spent on upgrading the conference and hotel facilities at the Ricoh." in the accounts?
If it is, missed it!

imp:

Thought PWKH used it, I think I might have picked it up and used it a few times. Although having said that I'm considered to be PWKH by at least one person on here.

 

[grego_gee]

Thought PWKH used it, I think I might have picked it up and used it a few times. Although having said that I'm considered to be PWKH by at least one person on here.

Yes OSB used it, I picked him up on it, I was wondering!....

imp:

 

[James Smith]

We don't receive any of it. The point TF was trying to express. Which is not contradicted by what OSB has said, is that only £100,000 was offered and was not worth pursuing!
He would have expected to be able to realise a profit of 40% on a possible turnover of £1.8 which would be £720,000 income, which would boost our playing budget under FFP by £432k, this would be an increase of 21% on our projected salary cap of £2m next year, and would make a noticeable difference!

Sadly this is not available to even ask for under the current ACL/CCC regime.

imp:

£1.8 million with our gates for say 30 matches (assuming a good cup run)?

 

[James Smith]

Yes OSB used it, I picked him up on it, I was wondering!....

imp:

I'm told that I also work for the council, so therefore I should be getting a hell of a lot more money into my bank account each month than I am.

 

[RPHunt]

Proper due diligence should have identified it. Starting point for every audit or due diligence is know your client. You can not plan your work unless you do that. Didnt TF say BDO carried out the due diligence ? So you might expect it to be reasonably thorough or to at least understand who the subject was and what each component did

Thanks. I don't remember TF saying that about BDO and due diligence, but if they did act for SISU, I presume they would have offered different levels of service e.g. a factual account of trading position showing income, expenses etc.; or a more in-depth review of contractual liabilities, potential liabilities etc.

Whatever, it does appear that SISUs determination to do the deal quickly has caused many of the current problems. I seem to remember that the deal had to be completed by the end of the year, 2007, or it would be off. Anyone else remember that ultimatum?

 

[Bluegloucester]

Thanks. I don't remember TF saying that about BDO and due diligence, but if they did act for SISU, I presume they would have offered different levels of service e.g. a factual account of trading position showing income, expenses etc.; or a more in-depth review of contractual liabilities, potential liabilities etc.

Whatever, it does appear that SISUs determination to do the deal quickly has caused many of the current problems. I seem to remember that the deal had to be completed by the end of the year, 2007, or it would be off. Anyone else remember that ultimatum?

Yes, there was a tight deadline, not sure of the exact date.

 

[lifelongcityfan]

TF conceded at last weeks forum that the due diligence had been woeful

 

[oldskyblue58]

Yes OSB used it, I picked him up on it, I was wondering!....

imp:

note 15 ACL accounts to 31/05/12

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

We don't receive any of it. The point TF was trying to express. Which is not contradicted by what OSB has said, is that only £100,000 was offered and was not worth pursuing!
He would have expected to be able to realise a profit of 40% on a possible turnover of £1.8 which would be £720,000 income, which would boost our playing budget under FFP by £432k, this would be an increase of 21% on our projected salary cap of £2m next year, and would make a noticeable difference!

Sadly this is not available to even ask for under the current ACL/CCC regime.

imp:

With the greatest of respect, anything is worth pursuing. When pressed last night, he had to admit he'd never even bothered to pick up the phone to Compass, let alone meet and 'explore the art of the possible'. They might have been persuaded - especially if they'd had been told that a future for the football club away from the Ricoh was possible - and and the resultant negative influence on their business, to offer much more.

You also have to bear in mind that the crowds at the new facility will be half of those at the Ricoh last year; and that's being kind. So, he may secure a larger slice of the pie, but the pie's going to be a whole lot smaller.

The true net position; between what could have been secured via Compass, and what might be realistically achieved with lower crowds and a new venue - has never been thoroughly investigated.

And the added complication of lower crowds, giving rise to lower turnover, a castrated FFP limit, worse players - and three years of relegation struggles?!? Or worse?!? Thereafter, where are the F&B's sitting then?

 

[SkyBlueCharlie]

note 15 ACL accounts to 31/05/12

Have you found it yet grego-gee...I was just wondering....?

 

[luwalla]

We don't receive any of it. The point TF was trying to express. Which is not contradicted by what OSB has said, is that only £100,000 was offered and was not worth pursuing!
He would have expected to be able to realise a profit of 40% on a possible turnover of £1.8 which would be £720,000 income, which would boost our playing budget under FFP by £432k, this would be an increase of 21% on our projected salary cap of £2m next year, and would make a noticeable difference!

Sadly this is not available to even ask for under the current ACL/CCC regime.

imp:

no i think you have that wrong.. and i think you've misunderstood the OP here too.. as your saying completly the oppsoite

As the original post said..

"The FFP figure btw was not going to be 100k it was going to be somewhere over £800k which would be the F& B turnover on match days. CCFC would take a commission/profit of £100k on the deal, all costs of supply being met by IEC"

so we would be able to include the full turnover of 800k for FFP benefit.. FFP is based on turnover, not net profit ( as i understand it ).. and the 100K would have then been the actual monetary "kick back" that ACL would give the club as a sweetener towards reducing the level of rent charged.. this a totally separate amount & different issue to the level of FFP benefit built into the deal.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Charltons F&B alleged £1.8M turnover with 40% margin was achieved with crowds averaging over 15,600 and at London prices (no doubt the staff there are paid no more than minimum wage so the profit potential is greater). The basic information is here, http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/charlton-athletic-into-valley.html

City's crowds in D3 were 10,700, the sales were c. £0.8M, so even if the margin was doubled the total profit would be £320K... but the loss of 1000 tickets on the gate at £20 for 24 matches is worth over £500K.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Key when camparing either sides arguments is to compare like with like

 

[covcity4life]

100k aint enough

either new owners or stubborn sisu, long term council must fuck off or give up a bigger piece of the pie

next 2-3 years ground sharing may be fucked but it could lead to a brighter future if we do get this ground made.