SISU are in the driving seat (3 Viewers)

footygeek

Member
Been a reader of this forum for a while. Prompted to post by some of the crazy talk on here trying to blame ACL. I grew up watching football on the terraces, but (for my sins) now work for a hedge fund.


Recall: SISU is a distressed debt hedge fund.


Hedge funds are run by elite financiers whose only goal is to make as much money as possible for their investors, and by proxy, for themselves. This is capitalism at the sharp end.


Distressed debt funds buy up companies that are having problems as cheaply as possible, then attempt to re-organise the operations and debts to maximise their profit. This is sometimes by managing the company to be more effective, equally often it is by a process of creative (but legal) accounting and clever use of bankruptcy law.


For a beginners guide watch "Pretty Woman".


In my opinion, SISU have no intrinsic interest in making the football club successful, or making the fans happy. It is just one more trade for their books. The decisions being made by SISU are being made in an executive office in Mayfair. The people making them are paid millions a year, live in London, and I suspect have no empathy with the average football fan. They do not stand on the terraces. They do not buy the shirt. They do not sing along. And I doubt they really understand what the club means to the community. Even if they are nice people, and do care, I suggest it will have zero impact on their decisions on what to do next.


It is hard to know exactly what SISUs plan is to generate a return, but given football clubs at this level are generally net-zero (or loss-making) on cash-flow you have to assume it is a play for assets. For what it's worth, I think the plan has always been to pick up a stake in the stadium at a knock down price. Now that looks unlikely, SISU are running plan B. The structure of the companies, the decisions around negotiation, the choices on administration are all part of a strategy to maximise returns.


ACL, the council, the Inland Revenue, etc. have been dragged into a situation not of their making. Have they done the best thing? Hard to say. They are dealing with a sophisticated, rich, and motivated adversary - negotiating with such people is not the councils specialty.


Anyone who thinks that SISU is not the cause of the clubs current situation is in fantasy land. Do not get lost in the complexity of the companies and the bankruptcy law and the press releases. SISU are in the driving seat.


The best that can happen now is that SISU decide that running this trade is not worth the cost any more. At that point they will sell off the club to the next owner and the rebuilding can start.


The best the fans can do is protest like hell about SISUs ownership. Hedge funds do not want to be in the spotlight. In the meantime all the fans should get behind the manager and players in the hope that when the next owner comes in, there might just be something left to build on.
 

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skybluehugh

New Member
Been a reader of this forum for a while. Prompted to post by some of the crazy talk on here trying to blame ACL. I grew up watching football on the terraces, but (for my sins) now work for a hedge fund.


Recall: SISU is a distressed debt hedge fund.


Hedge funds are run by elite financiers whose only goal is to make as much money as possible for their investors, and by proxy, for themselves. This is capitalism at the sharp end.


Distressed debt funds buy up companies that are having problems as cheaply as possible, then attempt to re-organise the operations and debts to maximise their profit. This is sometimes by managing the company to be more effective, equally often it is by a process of creative (but legal) accounting and clever use of bankruptcy law.


For a beginners guide watch "Pretty Woman".


In my opinion, SISU have no intrinsic interest in making the football club successful, or making the fans happy. It is just one more trade for their books. The decisions being made by SISU are being made in an executive office in Mayfair. The people making them are paid millions a year, live in London, and I suspect have no empathy with the average football fan. They do not stand on the terraces. They do not buy the shirt. They do not sing along. And I doubt they really understand what the club means to the community. Even if they are nice people, and do care, this will have zero impact on their decisions on what to do next.


It is hard to know exactly what SISUs plan is to generate a return, but given football clubs at this level are generally net-zero (or loss-making) on cash-flow you have to assume it is a play for assets. For what it's worth, I think the plan has always been to pick up a stake in the stadium at a knock down price. Now that looks unlikely, SISU are running plan B. The structure of the companies, the decisions around negotiation, the choices on administration are all part of a strategy to maximise returns.


ACL, the council, the Inland Revenue, etc. have been dragged into a situation not of their making. Have they done the best thing? Hard to say. They are dealing with a sophisticated, rich, and motivated adversary - negotiating with such people is not the councils specialty.


Anyone who thinks that SISU is not the cause of the clubs current situation is in fantasy land. Do not get lost in the complexity of the companies and the bankruptcy law and the press releases. SISU are in the driving seat.


The best that can happen now is that SISU decide that running this trade is not worth the cost any more. At that point they will sell off the club to the next owner and the rebuilding can start.


The best the fans can do is protest like hell about SISUs ownership. Hedge funds do not want to be in the spotlight. In the meantime all the fans should get behind the manager and players in the hope that when the next owner comes in, there might just be something left to build on.

until your last paragraph you talked a lot of sense. But then you come out with the best ting we can do is to pay good money after bad by going to NT. yes that will really get rid of SHITSU won't it. Is this yet another tack on rying to sell a few more season tickets. Sorry no go for me.
 

Noggin

New Member
Good post but I can't agree with your conclusion, you say yourself the best that can happen is that SISU decide this isn't worth it any more and surely by making it as uncomfortable as possible for them and maximising their losses you increase the chance of that happening. So not going to games (especially home games, no buying merchandise, not buying sky blue player) we increase the chance they will leave.
 
until your last paragraph you talked a lot of sense. But then you come out with the best ting we can do is to pay good money after bad by going to NT. yes that will really get rid of SHITSU won't it. Is this yet another tack on rying to sell a few more season tickets. Sorry no go for me.

Getting behind the team and the manager doesn;t mean going to sixfields, it means following the team away from home (but not for cup games)
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
Agree with most accept the title.

The fans are the ones in the driving seat. We are the club.
 

Bluegloucester

New Member
Sisu are a hedge fund with very little money under management (less than £100m) they do not pay staff huge salaries, do your homework!
 

Spionkop

New Member
Bigfatron, absolutely right. The fans are the ones in the driving seat. We are the club. We've got to grasp that and go with it.
 

skybluehugh

New Member
Getting behind the team and the manager doesn;t mean going to sixfields, it means following the team away from home (but not for cup games)

As others have said on different threads it is all or nothing for me. I will not give Fishtwat any reason to think he has in anyway won. Just to remind you all of our games are now away so which ones do I chose to go to?
 

footygeek

Member

Buster

Well-Known Member
I agree entirely with op. perhaps as a solution we could manoeuvre the vehicle Next to the cliff edge and then just as it goes over ,jump out and get in another motor.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
until your last paragraph you talked a lot of sense. But then you come out with the best ting we can do is to pay good money after bad by going to NT. yes that will really get rid of SHITSU won't it. Is this yet another tack on rying to sell a few more season tickets. Sorry no go for me.

I find it astounding that somebody takes the time to come up with an articulate, thought provoking post... and your response is it's a conspiracy theory to sell tickets!!
 

footygeek

Member
Sisu are a hedge fund with very little money under management (less than £100m) they do not pay staff huge salaries, do your homework!

In 2008 SISU made pre-tax profits of £17m (according to the Telegraph). I would bet my house that Seppala and Coleman take home more than £1m a year. Declared salaries may be close to zero, but that's more to do with getting paid in a "tax efficient" manner. Most traders in the city earn less than £200k a year salary, even if they take home millions.

And while their AUM are not huge you are neglecting the fact that the two founders may also be the majority investors, that the fund will leverage through borrowing, and that they likely charge hefty performance fees on any returns.
 

skybluehugh

New Member
I find it astounding that somebody takes the time to come up with an articulate, thought provoking post... and your response is it's a conspiracy theory to sell tickets!!


If you read the post properly all I did was ask a couple of questions. I thought after all, that was the point of this whole board isn't it?. Asking people why they hold a specific opinion, listen to their answer and debate the point without having to resort to name calling and sly putdowns if you don't like the answer, don't you think?
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
If you read the post properly all I did was ask a couple of questions. I thought after all, that was the point of this whole board isn't it?. Asking people why they hold a specific opinion, listen to their answer and debate the point without having to resort to name calling and sly putdowns if you don't like the answer, don't you think?

As opposed to leaping to conclusions and sinister conspiracy theories... and then allowing answers and reading them carefully instead of leaping to infantile conclusions.
 

skybluehugh

New Member
Sisu are a hedge fund with very little money under management (less than £100m) they do not pay staff huge salaries, do your homework!


You writing that isn't going to help your argument. It makes you sound like (not saying you are) your a pissed of employee who wants a pay rise for all the stuff you have to write for them.
 

ajsccfc

Well-Known Member
If you read the post properly all I did was ask a couple of questions. I thought after all, that was the point of this whole board isn't it?. Asking people why they hold a specific opinion, listen to their answer and debate the point without having to resort to name calling and sly putdowns if you don't like the answer, don't you think?

You mean name calling and putdowns like this?

your name is full of the same as you, fill of crap. I believe not a single REAL Sky Blue's fan will in anyway be celebrating that our club is going to the wall. Just WUM like you as it has given you even more joy and excuses to come on here and wind people up. people like you make me sick, taking pleasure at other people's misery just to make yourself feel important, just like the owners you like to call our saviours.

Calling someone full of crap, a WUM or talking to certain others about their 'pals' in SHITSU or SHITSCUM or TIM FISHTWATFACE or whatever rapier wit you thrust with. It's like the UN.
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
Good post but I can't agree with your conclusion, you say yourself the best that can happen is that SISU decide this isn't worth it any more and surely by making it as uncomfortable as possible for them and maximising their losses you increase the chance of that happening. So not going to games (especially home games, no buying merchandise, not buying sky blue player) we increase the chance they will leave.

If you read the rest of the article though, it states what a lot of hedge funds prime business is, distressed debt, and making money out of debt.

Providing even more debt by refusing to spend a penny on the club could only be a good thing for them.
 

RPHunt

New Member
In 2008 SISU made pre-tax profits of £17m (according to the Telegraph). I would bet my house that Seppala and Coleman take home more than £1m a year. Declared salaries may be close to zero, but that's more to do with getting paid in a "tax efficient" manner. Most traders in the city earn less than £200k a year salary, even if they take home millions.

And while their AUM are not huge you are neglecting the fact that the two founders may also be the majority investors, that the fund will leverage through borrowing, and that they likely charge hefty performance fees on any returns.

Read their accounts since then - it's been all downhill for them. Rather like CCFC.
 

Ashdown1

New Member
If you read the rest of the article though, it states what a lot of hedge funds prime business is, distressed debt, and making money out of debt.

Providing even more debt by refusing to spend a penny on the club could only be a good thing for them.

I doubt that very much and the old Northern Wisdom lines of defence have been predictable for 3 months now !
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
I doubt that very much and the old Northern Wisdom lines of defence have been predictable for 3 months now !

Fucking hell.

Are you back for some crazed abuse too?

Really, stop calling out my name with some deranged idea about what I've actually said, and trying to pick a fight. It does nobody any favours.
 
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J

Jack Griffin

Guest
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cloughie

Well-Known Member
if I was Harry Shaw coaches I would say to CCFC find your own way to NTFC, we're not driving you there

Good shout, what a good message that would be from an old Coventry established company,

They may have done this before for the credibility of the business yet to continue ..............well?
 

skybluehugh

New Member
You mean name calling and putdowns like this?



Calling someone full of crap, a WUM or talking to certain others about their 'pals' in SHITSU or SHITSCUM or TIM FISHTWATFACE or whatever rapier wit you thrust with. It's like the UN.


Why don't you read what you or your mate have written about myself and other poster before trying to come across as purer than white. People with glass houses and all that.
 

ajsccfc

Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to come across as anything, I'm quite happy to call a spade a spade. Or a SHITSPADE, lolapalooza

I don't keep bringing up the same group of people (proving that I either don't read what they say or don't understand it) and then call them pals with SHITSU.
 

Bluegloucester

New Member
In 2008 SISU made pre-tax profits of £17m (according to the Telegraph). I would bet my house that Seppala and Coleman take home more than £1m a year. Declared salaries may be close to zero, but that's more to do with getting paid in a "tax efficient" manner. Most traders in the city earn less than £200k a year salary, even if they take home millions.

And while their AUM are not huge you are neglecting the fact that the two founders may also be the majority investors, that the fund will leverage through borrowing, and that they likely charge hefty performance fees on any returns.

Check out the accts for other years, have been in decline since 2008 so no performance fees and not enough AUM to cover costs. Who would lend money to a non performing hedge fund? Not even their prime broker. As stated previously, do your homework, you are not the only person who works in the industry!

PS, I wouldn't bet your house on other peoples salaries, the latest accts have total for all salaries of less than £2m. You just lost your house.
 
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D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Oh God, I wake up and this tiresome thing still goes.

Frankly it's tiresome, stops any kind of nuances un a debate, and strikes me as people trying to drive others off a discussion (DISCUSSION) board because they're scared they might actually have an argument worth listening to.

They might want to read back what that point actually is, too. I'll start them with this thread:

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/34428-Oh-what-a-beautiful-mourning

Interestingly (or not) allowed to drop and ignored by most of the posters who for some reason are determined to dredge my username up for no reason whatsoever, ignored by the people determined to cause division by namechecking and trying to pigeonhole into a particular view.

I would ask those posters who seem determined to do this yesterday, quite why they feel the need to misrepresent? Could it be because they see certain views actually having a basis in articulate, intelligent reasoning? Could it be because those views actually preach a m essage of unity, while their attempts to Other and create difference project a message of disunity?

What agenda are they allowing to come through by wanting disunity among us as fans?
 
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Noggin

New Member
If you read the rest of the article though, it states what a lot of hedge funds prime business is, distressed debt, and making money out of debt.

Providing even more debt by refusing to spend a penny on the club could only be a good thing for them.

No it doesn't thats a misunderstanding of what he has written.
 

James Smith

Well-Known Member
I think we all know that owning our club has never been the prime motivator for SISU it's been about something else - The Ricoh. Yes owning a successful football club is a nice trophy for some rich oligarc or sheik and had we been sucessful then I suspect we would have been sold the minute a bidder reached the desired price. However success in football requires two things Money and Luck, you can spend all the money and have a successful club or you can be lucky and do it with little money. SISU didn't ever look like they were serious about the team given the sell offs of some key players that seemed to scupper our chances since they took over. Plus the transfer embargoes that we've been under over the years can't have helped the team or the manager and they were caused by the late filing of accounts. So it looks to me like they were always in it for the Ricoh, this was their masterplan. This article in the Telegraph (the national one) about Britains biggest private companies talks about SISU.

The Telegraph - 19 Aug 2008 said:
Hedge fund Sisu Capital bid for several debt-ridden football clubs, before saving Coventry City FC from administration this year.

The mysterious Mayfair fund, co-founded by traders Joy Seppala and Dermot Coleman, made pre-tax profits of £17m last year, primarily by buying up bad debt.

The fund often resorts to hard-ball courtroom tactics to get what it wants.

Sisu's glamorous Finnish-American chief executive, Ms Seppala, has been described as one of the stock market's boldest traders. Indeed, Sisu means "inner fortitude, strength and guts" in Finnish.

The fund blocked a £381.5m refinancing deal for troubled hotel chain Welcome Break in 2004, securing full pay-outs for creditors. But Ms Seppala was censured by a High Court judge in 2006 when Sisu's bid for a better deal from debt-ridden power company TXU Europe failed.

Which indicates to me that the rent boycott rather than negotiation and the reasoning behind the move to Sixfields was obviously to distress ACL further and would have gone ahead with or without the CVA. The master was buggered up by the council stepping in and buying the YB debt and that resulted in the "hard-ball courtroom tactics" which we have seen like the Judicial Review. Then last weeks talks about the ownership of the Ricoh and the statement from Ann Lucas about protecting a city asset made me think that they were after the freehold. So what's the betting they made a seriously low-ball offer to match their hard-ball actions elsewhere, OSB reckoned £10m and I'd think it was probably lower than that maybe £5m?

So the council as we can guess rejected that offer which I would call derisory if I were a journalist writing this in a newspaper. So let's suppose that ACL weren't bluffing and they can survive without the club (I'm not saying that they can just that they've said they can) that also buggers up the masterplan doesn't it. So to save the masterplan they'll have to make sure that ACL and anyone else they need to destroy can't survive and that probably means draining them with lawyers fees etc. Remember what Young Timothy said about the council having spent £100k on lawyers defending themselves? He failed to mention that it was defending a case SISU had brought against them. I was interested to note that in 2010 they made a loss of £376,000 and £272,000 in 2011 (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ity-owner-Sisu-Capital-posts-272000-loss.html)

So what happens next? At a guess we'll play at Sixfields if SISU really are just after the Ricoh, and they'll try and distress ACL further ramping up the lawyers if they don't seem to be having any effect. Now that Ltd is liquidated they've got no link to the Ricoh I can't see any other way they can do it, I mean they can't not pay the rent anymore and hurt ACL. I'd bet that the club isn't worth as much as SISU want for it and the NOPM campaign might distress them enough that they give up the ghost. It will depend on how stubborn they are, how much money they actually have and are prepared to spend. I have no doubt that us the fans will be in the firing line if we don't go to NTFC and that it'll get a lot worse before it gets any better.
 

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
The best the fans can do is protest like hell about SISUs ownership. Hedge funds do not want to be in the spotlight.

A VERY GOOD POINT.

JOY SEPPALA should be the target. Not SISU alone and certainly not Fisher.

The flags and banners should read

JOY SEPPALA AND SISU OUT

She will not like that one little bit. Until now she has very successfully pulled all the strings without getting any of the spotlight on her.


 

blueflint

Well-Known Member
I find it astounding that somebody takes the time to come up with an articulate, thought provoking post... and your response is it's a conspiracy theory to sell tickets!!

who's opinion is it that its an articulate thought provoking post not mine thought it was shite
 

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