PKWH on CWR Shane O'Connor 23/10/2013 (4 Viewers)

[RoboCCFC90]

robbo it still wouldn't match seppela's.

Like I said this gives us a fair chance of knowing SISU's real intentions are they going to spend £20-£30Mil on building new stadium or have an evaluation for an exsisting and (supposedly) healthy business to be carried out so that they can they use the £20-£30Mil, plus a little extra on buying a stadium that won't take 5 years to build and will have more additional revenue streams then a stadium they could build?

I know what I would do.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

ACL could do this in my view; yes. Right now, following recent events, they don't have a contract with the club's owners. As such, any new deal - provided it didn't mean they lost money - could easily be entertained. It helps continue to raise the profile of the Arena, and increase footfall to the location which drives other business opportunities. These sorts of 'at cost' or 'marginal cost' deals in a wider context are common and don't contravene company law.

This though, has to be separated from the idea of selling the business, at a less than market rate to a third party. As that clearly would be against the best interests of the limited company running the Arena.

So, cheap leasehold. No problem. Doesn't help Joy's conundrum though

Sounds good to me. Ironically a stronger ACL assists CCFC in the rental negotiations.

 

[duffer]

So why did CCC have to bail out ACL if things are so healthy?

1) To give them a better deal, making sure that they stay healthy. And so that they could offer the club a better deal.

2) Because the actions of their tenant were clearly making the bank uncomfortable. Nervous banks tend to reprice debt, making it more expensive - and limit overdrafts, making it trickier to manage cashflow. Lots of otherwise profitable businesses go under because of cashflow.

I presume everyone standing against the bailout (designed in part to help the club) is similarly horrified at the prospect of a forced sale to SISU at a loss to the taxpayer, no?

 

[Godiva]

1) To give them a better deal, making sure that they stay healthy. And so that they could offer the club a better deal.

2) Because the actions of their tenant were clearly making the bank uncomfortable. Nervous banks tend to reprice debt, making it more expensive - and limit overdrafts, making it trickier to manage cashflow. Lots of otherwise profitable businesses go under because of cashflow.

I presume everyone standing against the bailout (designed in part to help the club) is similarly horrified at the prospect of a forced sale to SISU at a loss to the taxpayer, no?

So you agree it was a bailout?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

What is a fair price? Without knowing that how can sisu agree to pay a fair price or not?
How to calculate a fair price? Does it equal market value?
Then what is the market value? How to calculate a market value of an item that has only one potential buyer and one potential seller?

I suggest the price for the freehold should be the exact mony CCC has spent on the Ricoh. NotOnePennyMore.
Or less.

I am sure an independent evaluation would give you a fair price. Wouldn't it? Maybe not in SISU's eyes, but if it turns out to be that they want to buy the Ricoh on the cheap as feared then they aren't thinking realistically.

Okay so lets say we take what CCC has pumped in, plus the £6Mil that the revenue's were purchased for and all other additional money that CCC/Higgs has pumped in how much does that come to in total?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Sounds good to me. Ironically a stronger ACL assists CCFC in the rental negotiations.

A stronger ACL should help any owner with candid aspirations to unite the team and the revenue streams from it's home. If ACL's next year's projected income is £13m without CCFC; what could it be with? £15 to 16m? FFP wouldn't even be a consideration. Sure financial prudence would need to be maintained and expenditure finally sit behind income; but as for turnover constraints; what turnover constraints?

Whereas what will turnover be this year? Less than £2m? :thinking about:

So, without promotion, our squad budget - derived from current turnover - in coming years shall be among the worst in the division, giving rise to likely relegation battles. Notwithstanding the under-valued miracles of the current manager and his crop of fine young players

 

[skybluetony176]

So you agree it was a bailout?

a secured loan against an asset is not a bail out. giving tax payers money to the banking sector so it didn't go completely tits up with little or no chance off getting all the tax payers money back or even it all back with interest is a bail out.

do stop confusing the 2, i'm sure even you can see the differance.

 

[shmmeee]

Forget selling it.

As fans we should be behind a low rent, long term lease solution. With access to revenues from football.

All we should care about is success for the club, neither the freehold nor a high rent benefit the club, but rather third parties.

 

[skybluetony176]

Forget selling it.

As fans we should be behind a low rent, long term lease solution. With access to revenues from football.

All we should care about is success for the club, neither the freehold nor a high rent benefit the club, but rather third parties.

what he said ^

 

[duffer]

So you agree it was a bailout?

It was designed to help the club and protect ACL (a 50% owned) council asset and involved public funds. In that sense, a bailout. However it protected an asset, and should generate some profit in terms of the repayment at commercial rates, so also an investment.

You'd agree it's wrong for the taxpayer to lose any more money to benefit the club's owners?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Forget selling it.

As fans we should be behind a low rent, long term lease solution. With access to revenues from football.

All we should care about is success for the club, neither the freehold nor a high rent benefit the club, but rather third parties.

But that isn't going to happen is it, so the only other solutions are build a new ground or the Arena is sold to the club.

 

[skybluetony176]

But that isn't going to happen is it, so the only other solutions are build a new ground or the Arena is sold to the club.

joys already admited that the club wont own the ground should sh itsu buy it.

 

[shmmeee]

But that isn't going to happen is it, so the only other solutions are build a new ground or the Arena is sold to the club.

It isn't going to happen because Joy says so? By that logic, the sale won't happen because CCC say so (at Joy's price) and the new stadium won't happen because planning law says so.

Something's got to give here. As fans that should be our preferred option IMO as it's the best for the club.

And Joy might accept a deal where the club have access to revenue and a very long lease at virtually nothing. That adds value to the club, even if not as much as the whole complex, and might enable a return on her investment. One, you might argue, she has actually earned through good negotiation.

 

[Godiva]

I am sure an independent evaluation would give you a fair price. Wouldn't it? Maybe not in SISU's eyes, but if it turns out to be that they want to buy the Ricoh on the cheap as feared then they aren't thinking realistically.

Okay so lets say we take what CCC has pumped in, plus the £6Mil that the revenue's were purchased for and all other additional money that CCC/Higgs has pumped in how much does that come to in total?

Independant evaluation? Is there such a thing?
I think Ms Seppala suggested they each chose a valuator and set the price to the average of the two.
Maybe that could work?

To your second part - how much have CCC (Leave out Higgs, as I think that they got 50% of ACL for their money?) pumped in? I don't know, but is the sum really interesting? It's the principle that is important.

 

[Cheshire Sky Blue]

Amongst many things -he mentioned the power of veto that ACL hold over any potential freehold deal that the council might strike with Otium for the Ricoh unless Otium pay their debt. He also referenced an upaid bill of £28,000- a fee that Joy Sepalla had personally committed to the charity that she would meet- (I missed what for?). He was very specific with his buisness reckoning suggesting that only 7% comes from CCFC- albeit did concede(I think) that associated sales were diffiicult to calculate. He also stated that circa 55% of revenue was in conferences etc and that the attraction of the Ricoh was global for such events.
He closed by saying that the door was open for talks, and that ACL wanted the football club at the Ricoh.

Not sure that was related to the Freehold, that's in the CCC domain and he stated that councils never sell their freeholds. He was referencing the sale of the council shares in ACL I think.

 

[Nick]

Independant evaluation? Is there such a thing?
I think Ms Seppala suggested they each chose a valuator and set the price to the average of the two.
Maybe that could work?

To your second part - how much have CCC (Leave out Higgs, as I think that they got 50% of ACL for their money?) pumped in? I don't know, but is the sum really interesting? It's the principle that is important.

That would work as long as they were both realistic and SISU's didn't say £1 and the councils £4 billion. If they were both pretty much the same then it would be fair I think.

 

[Godiva]

It was designed to help the club and protect ACL (a 50% owned) council asset and involved public funds. In that sense, a bailout. However it protected an asset, and should generate some profit in terms of the repayment at commercial rates, so also an investment.

You'd agree it's wrong for the taxpayer to lose any more money to benefit the club's owners?

You replied to a chain of posts arguing if it was a bailout or not. You used the word bailout freely, so I just tried to challenge you on that (bailout or not).

 

[duffer]

But that isn't going to happen is it, so the only other solutions are build a new ground or the Arena is sold to the club.

A rental deal's not going to happen at the moment, according to SISU. But do you think they might change tack when they realise the game's up in terms of getting the Ricoh on the cheap, and they're still getting pounded by losses at Northampton (and a new stadium will mean they have to find another £25m)?

 

[duffer]

You replied to a chain of posts arguing if it was a bailout or not. You used the word bailout freely, so I just tried to challenge you on that (bailout or not).

And I gave you my answer. Where's yours?

 

[olderskyblue]

I suggest the price for the freehold should be the exact mony CCC has spent on the Ricoh. NotOnePennyMore.
Or less.

Or maybe it should be the amount that SISU will lose over the next 3-5 years plus the costs of a new stadium and all associated land, planning etc costs? Or maybe 80% of that total so SISU are making a saving. Isn't that's a good deal?

 

[Godiva]

joys already admited that the club wont own the ground should sh itsu buy it.

What she said was that the company being the club would not own the stadium - it would be another comapny under the SBS&L umbrella (probably ccfc Holdings). In effect it will still be seen as the club owning the stadium.

 

[thaiskyblue]

What she said was that the company being the club would not own the stadium - it would be another comapny under the SBS&L umbrella (probably ccfc Holdings). In effect it will still be seen as the club owning the stadium.

Another sisu disguise ?

 

[dongonzalos]

The one thing that I think is the most unlikely is the council selling to Ricoh to SISU.
Especially if financially they do not have to.

I think this because of the way SISU have behaved in their business dealings with the council and their running of the football club.

I just can't see the council getting the majority vote they would need to sell it.

Sorry to me its either a rent deal, buy ACL or build a new stadium.

A rent deal and sell whilst in the champ play offs is SISU's best bet of recouping their money in my opinion.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

To your second part - how much have CCC (Leave out Higgs, as I think that they got 50% of ACL for their money?) pumped in? I don't know, but is the sum really interesting? It's the principle that is important.

If you're interested in principles; what about ACL's view? The subject of seemingly terrible behaviours by it's tenant in withholding rent and simultaneously talking about it's financial state to make it's principal lender jittery; but having overcome this and developed a business model that's now wholly different from that before. Projecting turnover and presumably enhanced profitability without the football club (who had 'moved on')and very much 'on the up'. Bringing in money from outside of the region - what were the stats with regards visitors from the UK/Europe? - and enhancing the reputation of Coventry as a place to do business/enjoy leisure time.

And you think tis should be gifted to SISU? If so, why? What have they shown you in recent times that gives you the confidence they would continue this trend? Or you think they should have it so they can throw it into the mix of a cheap freehold too so they can get out of town with a return on their investment?

Where sit these 'principles' within that context? The Ricoh, now, is more than bricks and mortar and a green bit in the middle

 

[Godiva]

And I gave you my answer. Where's yours?

I am sorry, but your question was not related to wether it was a bailout or not.
And anyway, I have no straight answer for you. It is my priority no 1, that the club and stadium is united ... that will benefit the club the most in the long term and is the only solutiuon that support most fans ambition of returning to the top flight. Everything else is of less interests to me. Be it if sisu go bankrupt or ACL make a fortune or Fisher gets fired .... I don't really care.
But I did say in this and another thread that the freehold should be sold to the club for the exact amount CCC has pumped into the Ricoh project over time.

 

[oldskyblue58]

There is a big assumption being made. We have not read or heard that the Ricoh isnt for sale certainly but we also have not heard or seen that it is either.

What is being said directly to CCFC/SISU/JS is ........ you need to make a proposal (for short/long leasehold or freehold or for part/all of ACL), we are comfortable and secure with our finances, if you want the Ricoh then you have to come up with a reasonable and realistic offer that encourages us to start talking with you, until you do we will carry building our business in other ways, but we wont wait for ever

 

[Godiva]

If you're interested in principles; what about ACL's view? The subject of seemingly terrible behaviours by it's tenant in withholding rent and simultaneously talking about it's financial state to make it's principal lender jittery; but having overcome this and developed a business model that's now wholly different from that before. Projecting turnover and presumably enhanced profitability without the football club (who had 'moved on')and very much 'on the up'. Bringing in money from outside of the region - what were the stats with regards visitors from the UK/Europe? - and enhancing the reputation of Coventry as a place to do business/enjoy leisure time.

And you think tis should be gifted to SISU? If so, why? What have they shown you in recent times that gives you the confidence they would continue this trend? Or you think they should have it so they can throw it into the mix of a cheap freehold too so they can get out of town with a return on their investment?

Where sit these 'principles' within that context? The Ricoh, now, is more than bricks and mortar and a green bit in the middle

I said the FREEHOLD should be sold to the CLUB for the exact amount of money the CCC has pumped into the Ricoh project over time.
I never (in this thread) discussed selling the ACL to the club ... but over time that would be ideal.

If the club returned to the Ricoh rent-free, only paying the matchday costs and received ACL's share of matchday F/B - that could maybe be acceptable to sisu. I don't know.
I only want the club back in the city - preferbly the Ricoh, but a ne build-for-purpose stadium would be nice too.

 

[shmmeee]

I said the FREEHOLD should be sold to the CLUB for the exact amount of money the CCC has pumped into the Ricoh project over time.
I never (in this thread) discussed selling the ACL to the club ... but over time that would be ideal.

If the club returned to the Ricoh rent-free, only paying the matchday costs and received ACL's share of matchday F/B - that could maybe be acceptable to sisu. I don't know.
I only want the club back in the city - preferbly the Ricoh, but a ne build-for-purpose stadium would be nice too.

So why the hell would we sell the free hold to a Sisu company if ACL are still in control of the rent? What are you expecting? Sisu to threaten ACL with extortionate rent to distress/lever them into a better deal for CCFC?

I don't understand this need for the club to own the freehold (aside from giving Seppala and asset to get her return from). Surely a long lease and/or buying into ACL are better for the club in the short term and the long term?

We need the revenues and we need low rent, these are both in ACL's hands.

 

[Godiva]

The one thing that I think is the most unlikely is the council selling to Ricoh to SISU.
Especially if financially they do not have to.

I think this because of the way SISU have behaved in their business dealings with the council and their running of the football club.

I just can't see the council getting the majority vote they would need to sell it.

Sorry to me its either a rent deal, buy ACL or build a new stadium.

A rent deal and sell whilst in the champ play offs is SISU's best bet of recouping their money in my opinion.

If that turns out to be the case - and it certainly looks that way - then do you think the CCC would object to sisu building a new stadium?

 

[torchomatic]

Don't see why they should. They say two things: the Ricoh can survive without the Club and they "love" CCFC. So, why on earth should they object to the Club coming back to the City where it belongs?

If that turns out to be the case - and it certainly looks that way - then do you think the CCC would object to sisu building a new stadium?

 

[Godiva]

So why the hell would we sell the free hold to a Sisu company if ACL are still in control of the rent? What are you expecting? Sisu to threaten ACL with extortionate rent to distress/lever them into a better deal for CCFC?

I don't understand this need for the club to own the freehold (aside from giving Seppala and asset to get her return from). Surely a long lease and/or buying into ACL are better for the club in the short term and the long term?

We need the revenues and we need low rent, these are both in ACL's hands.

I didn't understand the desire to own the freehold either - I thought they were after ACL. But Ms Seppala keeps saying she wants the freehold, so I can only go with that.
If sisu (ccfc Holdings) own the freehold it increases the assets sisu are managing - thereby increases their salary.
Owning the freehold would also give right to build a hotel, offices or housing - the much sought land development - and that would increase revenue.

In any case - if ACL's figures add up and their business really is that much better now - then why would they change it? They would maybe want to buy ACL at some point, but apparently it is not in sisu's short term planning.

 

[dongonzalos]

If that turns out to be the case - and it certainly looks that way - then do you think the CCC would object to sisu building a new stadium?

It would be in their interests to block it within their territory.

Increasing the chances of it not happening and SISU returning to the Ricoh.

 

[Godiva]

Don't see why they should. They say two things: the Ricoh can survive without the Club and they "love" CCFC. So, why on earth should they object to the Club coming back to the City where it belongs?

My point exactly.
If they objected then it would be a case of trying to force out sisu.

 

[mrbluesky87]

Just a thought, but if CCFC do build a new stadium surely that would open up to a 2 team City????

I hear the argument that we already struggle for crowds, even at the Ricoh but reading between the lines what else will the acutal pitch be used for????? Im also not suggesting that in my life time (Im still young) that it would be a fierce rivalry but I can see this happening. How???????

 

[torchomatic]

Which they tried and failed to do in the past. They were happy to sell to anyone but SISU.

My point exactly.
If they objected then it would be a case of trying to force out sisu.