New Stadium financial viability. (15 Viewers)

[dongonzalos]

Jr is their last throw of dice? However cant decipher your post, probably due to spellcheck interference?

Sorry, they will not be allowed to liquidate the club. Without it first going up for sale, surely?

 

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[Moff]

SISU know the answer that's the point. Have they been asked and pinned down on it.
If not has anyone got access to them who can

You would be a better person than the rest of us if you could get that information out of them.
They never let anything slip.

 

[Hobo]

But wasn't that part of the prerequisite of the stuff they had to show the FL, so they must have some idea or otherwise all they said to the FL was we're going to build a stadium, we don't know where, we don't know how much it'll cost and we don't know when, but it will happen, honest guv.

Or having already threatened the FL with legal action over a possible move on ownership of the share to play in the league; did they just show some evidence of finances and say see you in court if you want to get embroiled in this legal mess we are contesting?

Let's face it the FL gave them a 5 year ticket, at least hoping they will either go away, or resolve the differences?

 

[Grendel]

Exactly they intend to sell

The top will need to cover somewhere between 50-100 million depending in which debt figures SISU release that is true.

Is it feasible that CCFC, lets humour them and say in the championship plus a 12k capacity stadium will sell for 50-100 million.

Everyone accepts the real debt to be a lot less so shy keep saying something everyone knows is not really correct?

 

[skybluefred]

Everyone accepts the real debt to be a lot less so shy keep saying something everyone knows is not really correct?

Proof please.

 

[Hobo]

Everyone accepts the real debt to be a lot less so shy keep saying something everyone knows is not really correct?

Because SISU do and with no published accounts they must know best? Surely we have to use the figures they have alluded to?

 

[dongonzalos]

Everyone accepts the real debt to be a lot less so shy keep saying something everyone knows is not really correct?

Do you know what the debt is?

If so please enlighten me.

As far as I am aware SISU have at one point said around 30 million.

Then during the administration the administrator said near 70 million.

I am been kind and working off the 30 million figure. What would you prefer?

 

[Grendel]

Do you know what the debt is?

If so please enlighten me.

As far as I am aware SISU have at one point said around 30 million.

Then during the administration the administrator said near 70 million.

I am been kind and working off the 30 million figure. What would you prefer?

How much of the debt is in the Avro fund?

 

[dongonzalos]

How much of the debt is in the Avro fund?

Thought you were about to provide answers not questions

 

[Grendel]

Thought you were about to provide answers not questions

You area king an assumption they want to recover circa £100 million of debt. This will not be what they want to do at all. The football related to their own fund will be a lot less.

How much - no one knows and no one will ever know. There is clearly an agreed strategy which will involve ultimately a sale but what their target return is no one will ever know until the time comes.

 

[Hobo]

How much of the debt is in the Avro fund?

That no one knows? Also how much of it is to give them SISU a revenue stream? Let's pool debt and siphon off profit for ourselves. Profit from failing businesses is their expertise after all!

It is curious why debt rocketed during administration is it not? I know it would not have escaped your attention Grendel.

 

[DaleM]

OK so lets say the debt at the moment is £30 million ( Grendel we don't actually know so I am assuming it is a lot less than the £70 million)
Then lets add on the estimated £30 million cost of a new 12000 seater stadium somewhere in the Coventry area.
Then lets say they fill the ground every week at an average of , after tax , freebies etc. £15 a head.
So they recoup £180,000 per game.
Add in say , as a higher estimate £ 5 a head F & B revenue on which , I will be generous £3 is profit, an extra £36000 a week.

Now that comes to £216,000 per game at maximum revenue.

Multiply that by 23 games a season and you get £4,968,000. So just shy of £5 million. Add cup games etc as you will , depending on how we do.

So without paying staff,players,matchday costs etc,etc,etc, It would take 12 fucking years just to clear the debt.

Now I have gone on the top end of the scale with full houses every week and people having a pie and a pint every game.

It doesn,t make any sense to me whatsoever.

By the time this thing is built ( I don't believe for one second it ever will be ) CCFC will be a lot more in debt and potentially playing at a lower level than what we are now.

 

[Hobo]

DaleM it doesn't make sense, SISU don't make sense...they have made mistakes but other people are to blame..don't forge that!

 

[DaleM]

DaleM it doesn't make sense, SISU don't make sense...they have made mistakes but other people are to blame..don't forge that!

According to Labovich yes.

 

[Godiva]

Do you know what the debt is?

If so please enlighten me.

As far as I am aware SISU have at one point said around 30 million.

Then during the administration the administrator said near 70 million.

I am been kind and working off the 30 million figure. What would you prefer?

Much of the debts will have been written off with limited and holding being liquidated. That's the debts that was kept on the books from before sisu took over.
OSB made a post a month ago about it.
The debt left that is actually making an impact is the debt to ARVO as that is carrying interest. I think that amounts to some £12m.
JS said the debts to the original funds had been written of in the funds accounts, which means that can be bought at a much reduced value.

 

[DaleM]

Much of the debts will have been written off with limited and holding being liquidated. That's the debts that was kept on the books from before sisu took over.
OSB made a post a month ago about it.
The debt left that is actually making an impact is the debt to ARVO as that is carrying interest. I think that amounts to some £12m.
JS said the debts to the original funds had been written of in the funds accounts, which means that can be bought at a much reduced value.

Serious question now . Do you actually believe them ?

Their track record of us being declared debt free in the past doesn't actually inspire me.

 

[Grendel]

Serious question now . Do you actually believe them ?

Their track record of us being declared debt free in the past doesn't actually inspire me.

I thought the football related debt was around £10 million. The rest will have been written off.

 

[chiefdave]

Serious question now . Do you actually believe them ?

Their track record of us being declared debt free in the past doesn't actually inspire me.

I suspect the 'real' debt figure prior to admin was around £30m, then some old debt which had been kept on the books from the pre-SISU days (but not actually money they'd paid out) suddenly appeared and the figure shot up to £60m meaning they could happily write off £30m as part of the administration / liquidation proceedings and still retain the same level of 'real' debt as before they started.

 

[dongonzalos]

You area king an assumption they want to recover circa £100 million of debt. This will not be what they want to do at all. The football related to their own fund will be a lot less.

How much - no one knows and no one will ever know. There is clearly an agreed strategy which will involve ultimately a sale but what their target return is no one will ever know until the time comes.

I said 50 million
30 million debt plus 20 million borrowed to build a stadium. I was been very kind

Can you see a football club with a 12k capacity stadium selling for 50 million?

 

[DaleM]

So are CCFC £10,£12 or £30 Million in debt . Or does anyone really know for sure ?

It doesn't matter anyway because add in the cost of a new stadium , of reduced capacity etc. etc. and the debt will be astronomical again.

 

[dongonzalos]

OK so lets say the debt at the moment is £30 million ( Grendel we don't actually know so I am assuming it is a lot less than the £70 million)
Then lets add on the estimated £30 million cost of a new 12000 seater stadium somewhere in the Coventry area.
Then lets say they fill the ground every week at an average of , after tax , freebies etc. £15 a head.
So they recoup £180,000 per game.
Add in say , as a higher estimate £ 5 a head F & B revenue on which , I will be generous £3 is profit, an extra £36000 a week.

Now that comes to £216,000 per game at maximum revenue.

Multiply that by 23 games a season and you get £4,968,000. So just shy of £5 million. Add cup games etc as you will , depending on how we do.

So without paying staff,players,matchday costs etc,etc,etc, It would take 12 fucking years just to clear the debt.

Now I have gone on the top end of the scale with full houses every week and people having a pie and a pint every game.

It doesn,t make any sense to me whatsoever.

By the time this thing is built ( I don't believe for one second it ever will be ) CCFC will be a lot more in debt and potentially playing at a lower level than what we are now.

You forgot paying interest in borrowed debt as well. It won't take 12 years. That debt will not be touched year after year. So it will be all down to the sale price

 

[Grendel]

For goodness sake the debt is considerably less about £10 million is the recoverable debt.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Much of the debts will have been written off with limited and holding being liquidated. That's the debts that was kept on the books from before sisu took over.
OSB made a post a month ago about it.
The debt left that is actually making an impact is the debt to ARVO as that is carrying interest. I think that amounts to some £12m.
JS said the debts to the original funds had been written of in the funds accounts, which means that can be bought at a much reduced value.

The debt has never been about what is in CCFC Ltd or CCFC H. The debt owed sits in what is owed by SBS&L to SISU investors and the amount owed to ARVO. The Interest charged by ARVO is a significant cost to the business possibly pushing £1m pa. The SBS&L loans carry no interest but are a significant obstacle to any third party investors or lenders

After loan conversions and exchanges I am not sure the loan stands at 12m but the filed accounts tomorrow will possibly clear that up (if they are filed)

The debts in the original funds were written down not off there is a difference. If written off then they wont be recovered, if written down then the current value is nil but the full amount is still due

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I remember Tim Fisher saying something about equity and loans I think but I am not 100% sure on that..

 

[señor Santiago]

It goes back to why not offer the council that kind of money for the Ricoh though? While the Council have said it's not for sale you suspect they'd have to consider any reasonable offer.

Because we dont want these crooks/con artists to get the Ricoh!!!!!

 

[dongonzalos]

The debt has never been about what is in CCFC Ltd or CCFC H. The debt owed sits in what is owed by SBS&L to SISU investors and the amount owed to ARVO. The Interest charged by ARVO is a significant cost to the business possibly pushing £1m pa. The SBS&L loans carry no interest but are a significant obstacle to any third party investors or lenders

After loan conversions and exchanges I am not sure the loan stands at 12m but the filed accounts tomorrow will possibly clear that up (if they are filed)

The debts in the original funds were written down not off there is a difference. If written off then they wont be recovered, if written down then the current value is nil but the full amount is still due

Thanks OSB

Interesting about the 1 million a year interest. The stadium will never make any profit to chip away at the debt.

So if a new stadium costs 20-30 million what will SISU need to sell the lot for in order to walk away not writing off any loses?

 

[DaleM]

You forgot paying interest in borrowed debt as well. It won't take 12 years. That debt will not be touched year after year. So it will be all down to the sale price

I included that in the etc.etc.etc. bit . I also forgot to state the management fees charged and potentially CCFC having to pay rent to Otium.

Whichever way you look at it it really is a clusterfuck and no one in their right minds qould invest so much money for so little return.

There won't be enough left over after paying everything out for even a half decent playing squad.

 

[oldskyblue58]

2012 accounts showed 28.55m owing to SISU investors by way of loans and loans outstanding to ARVO of 8.025m. So far there is nothing to say any has been repaid and therefore the debt I would expect to be at least 36m

 

[DaleM]

So are CCFC £10,£12 or £30 Million in debt . Or does anyone really know for sure ?

It doesn't matter anyway because add in the cost of a new stadium , of reduced capacity etc. etc. and the debt will be astronomical again.

So now add £36 million into the mix

 

[oldskyblue58]

I remember Tim Fisher saying something about equity I think but I am not 100% sure on that.

I think Mr Fisher has said a lot of things Robbo. When he said that I think he meant it was debt owed to the owners and associates not third parties (ie more in house) not that he meant shares. More playing with words in my opinion

 

[RoboCCFC90]

2012 accounts showed 28.55m owing to SISU investors by way of loans and loans outstanding to ARVO of 8.025m. So far there is nothing to say any has been repaid and therefore the debt I would expect to be at least 36m

So where the has £70,000,000 come from OSB?

 

[Godiva]

The debt has never been about what is in CCFC Ltd or CCFC H. The debt owed sits in what is owed by SBS&L to SISU investors and the amount owed to ARVO. The Interest charged by ARVO is a significant cost to the business possibly pushing £1m pa. The SBS&L loans carry no interest but are a significant obstacle to any third party investors or lenders

After loan conversions and exchanges I am not sure the loan stands at 12m but the filed accounts tomorrow will possibly clear that up (if they are filed)

The debts in the original funds were written down not off there is a difference. If written off then they wont be recovered, if written down then the current value is nil but the full amount is still due

Written DOWN, not off. My mistake. The point is a buyer can probably get that debt at a much reduced price.
And that debt I am sure is still in SBS&L at nominal value, so the books will not show £12m, but more likely around £40m.

Even if the accounts are filed tomorrow, won't it be another couple of weeks before we can access them?

 

[dongonzalos]

Right so Grendal's 8-10 million is way off the mark.

36 million will do for me. If we go for a middle figure in stadium cost 25 million.

60 million to sell the lot to walk away without any loses.

At the moment we pay 1 million a year interest on the debt. This could feasibly double to 2 million.

Is it correct we pay over a million on management fees.

So we need to clear 3 million a year profit before we can consider paying staff.

Awesome

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I think Mr Fisher has said a lot of things Robbo. When he said that I think he meant it was debt owed to the owners and associates not third parties (ie more in house) not that he meant shares. More playing with words in my opinion

That sounds familiar OSB, ah word play now that's an unfamiliar circumstance in this situation

 

[dongonzalos]

Written DOWN, not off. My mistake. The point is a buyer can probably get that debt at a much reduced price.
And that debt I am sure is still in SBS&L at nominal value, so the books will not show £12m, but more likely around £40m.

Even if the accounts are filed tomorrow, won't it be another couple of weeks before we can access them?

Can you see how they can recoup 60 million in the long run Godiva?

Do you know if they have ever been asked this?