Club Statement (13 Viewers)

[Astute]

Which is why I'd like SISU and ACL gone. No more debt from SISU, no more unsustainable rent from ACL.

Just about all of us want them both gone.

But I can't see the debt owed to whatever parts of SISU just disappearing. And I don't want to see Higgs lose out. And also there has been a few offers of much lower rent.

To cut it short I want the Ricoh owned by OUR football club. But because of the finances we have a long way to go before it happens

 

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[Astute]

Really?

Yes really. The financial obligations to ACL was the rent.

Or have you got a story you would like to make up and tell us?

 

[Godiva]

Yes really. The financial obligations to ACL was the rent.

Or have you got a story you would like to make up and tell us?

Financial obligations is much broader than just rent. It's any unpaid debt no matter the origin.

 

[Kingokings204]

Down with this sort of thing! NOPM

Up the council!!

Productive

 

[Godiva]

Just about all of us want them both gone.

But I can't see the debt owed to whatever parts of SISU just disappearing. And I don't want to see Higgs lose out. And also there has been a few offers of much lower rent.

To cut it short I want the Ricoh owned by OUR football club. But because of the finances we have a long way to go before it happens

Super, then we agree. SBS&L should own both Otium (the club) and ACL.
You forgot to say if you accept sisu being the majority shareholder of SBS&L.

 

[Astute]

Super, then we agree. SBS&L should own both Otium (the club) and ACL.
You forgot to say if you accept sisu being the majority shareholder of SBS&L.

I have always said I could forgive SISU for the past if they started running our club properly. If our club started going in the right direction. If they stopped trying to blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong. I will never forget what has happened though.

Two points though. I can't see it happening as they are in it for their shareholders and there is no sign of it happening.

 

[Kingokings204]

I have always said I could forgive SISU for the past if they started running our club properly. If our club started going in the right direction. If they stopped trying to blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong. I will never forget what has happened though.

Two points though. I can't see it happening as they are in it for their shareholders and there is no sign of it happening.

Yes but at some point the shareholders will want out and not ploughing in millions for zero return and no signs of a resurgence. Didn't JS say investors were severely tested at this point last year when the CVA was rejected.

Fuck knows what they think 1 year on. Surely the JR is the last throw of the dice.

 

[bigfatronssba]

I have always said I could forgive SISU for the past if they started running our club properly. If our club started going in the right direction. If they stopped trying to blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong. I will never forget what has happened though.

Two points though. I can't see it happening as they are in it for their shareholders and there is no sign of it happening.

The fact that Sisu pretty much fail at everything they do would concern me about them owning the Ricoh.

Like you say they seriously need to improve their competency before fans will even begin to start forgiving them.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Seems like they've played by the book in this instance, according to FL instruction.

However the validity of FL instructions holds as much weight as David Icke and his relationship to the big man in the sky...

WM

I often thought we'd all look a bit silly if it turned out he was indeed the Son of God.

What if there are hundreds of sons of Gods, and we keep dismissing them as nutters? Poor old Icke's busy telling us and we're not listening!

Well he who laughs last... is a blood drinking lizard.

 

[Buster]

When the payments from GR and MM come to light
1 Speak to FL
2 Speak to Appleton
3 Pay what you owe
Job done , No escrow No Telegraph story No club statement No lies No contradictions
It aint feckin rocket science

 

[Godiva]

Yes but at some point the shareholders will want out and not ploughing in millions for zero return and no signs of a resurgence. Didn't JS say investors were severely tested at this point last year when the CVA was rejected.

Fuck knows what they think 1 year on. Surely the JR is the last throw of the dice.

How many times have we misread sisu? How many times have we said 'they are only here short term'. We didn't believe them when they said 'the club risk going into liquidation'. We didn't believe they would stay after the administration. We didn't believe they would deliver the latest accounts on time.
Currently we don't believe they will build a new stadium if they can't have the Ricoh.
Currently we believe they will leave if they don't win the JR.

If there is one thing we can't predict - it's sisu.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

We didn't believe them when they said 'the club risk going into liquidation'.

ACL certainly believed them

 

[martcov]

I'm sure if you look at the history CCC owe both CCFC & the Alan Higgs Trust a considerable amount of money but they kept it all!

Managed to get out of it by quoting a technicality.

Personally I believe it to be totally impossible to believe any of the statements made by any of the parties involved.

D-Day 8 days way & counting! PUSB

What was the technicality? I'd be interested to know for my own purposes.

 

[Kingokings204]

How many times have we misread sisu? How many times have we said 'they are only here short term'. We didn't believe them when they said 'the club risk going into liquidation'. We didn't believe they would stay after the administration. We didn't believe they would deliver the latest accounts on time.
Currently we don't believe they will build a new stadium if they can't have the Ricoh.
Currently we believe they will leave if they don't win the JR.

If there is one thing we can't predict - it's sisu.

I agree. My quote of JR is the last throw of the dice was purely my opinion but there has to come a point where for the investors enough is enough. Sisu don't care as its not their money but investors do and there has to be a point that states we get out now. It sounds like they wanted out last year but were convinced to stay on funding the season just gone probably on the basis of the JR being the turning point.

 

[Godiva]

ACL certainly believed them

Well, they counted on it. And when it happened, they were left without their anchor tenant, a broken lease and a big empty hole in their coffers.
Voting against the CVA hoping sisu would leave was a mistake that would mean sacking the entire board and strategic management in any normal private business.

 

[Monners]

Well, they counted on it. And when it happened, they were left without their anchor tenant, a broken lease and a big empty hole in their coffers.
Voting against the CVA hoping sisu would leave was a mistake that would mean sacking the entire board and strategic management in any normal private business.

Fair point re the Board. The downside to not for profit set ups (Charity, CIC, TTrust etc) is that the Board members/trustees are pretty much immovable objects (used to work for one - can be frustrating).

 

[Godiva]

I agree. My quote of JR is the last throw of the dice was purely my opinion but there has to come a point where for the investors enough is enough. Sisu don't care as its not their money but investors do and there has to be a point that states we get out now. It sounds like they wanted out last year but were convinced to stay on funding the season just gone probably on the basis of the JR being the turning point.

One thing we may not fully grasp is the difference between loans and share capital (equity). Had the investors money been placed as equity they would need to write down the value each year, but as loans as the loans are defaulted (easy when no interests or instalments are due) then maybe they don't have to write down their investment. So probably - in the investors accounts - the loans are still assets at full value? In other words - they may not feel they have lost anything yet.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Well, they counted on it. And when it happened, they were left without their anchor tenant, a broken lease and a big empty hole in their coffers.
Voting against the CVA hoping sisu would leave was a mistake that would mean sacking the entire board and strategic management in any normal private business.

Why a mistake exactly? Rejecting the CVA will result in ACL receiving the same amount of money back as if they had accepted it.

 

[Ian1779]

Why a mistake exactly? Rejecting the CVA will result in ACL receiving the same amount of money back as if they had accepted it.

Maybe because they lost their anchor tenant.

IMHO if the CVA had been accepted, ACL would have their money and we would be back at the Ricoh by now.

 

[Monners]

Maybe because they lost their anchor tenant.

IMHO if the CVA had been accepted, ACL would have their money and we would be back at the Ricoh by now.

Not so sure Ian. There would still have been the spectre of the ownership/rent/lease.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Maybe because they lost their anchor tenant.

IMHO if the CVA had been accepted, ACL would have their money and we would be back at the Ricoh by now.

Why would we be back?

Also in pretty much every private business I've worked in you pursue creditors for what you are owed, even if they are your best customer. You don't just let them off with it. If you get a reputation for letting your customers mess you about over debts owed all your customers will soon be doing it.

 

[Kingokings204]

One thing we may not fully grasp is the difference between loans and share capital (equity). Had the investors money been placed as equity they would need to write down the value each year, but as loans as the loans are defaulted (easy when no interests or instalments are due) then maybe they don't have to write down their investment. So probably - in the investors accounts - the loans are still assets at full value? In other words - they may not feel they have lost anything yet.

I half understand that but not fully as yourself. You may be right but like I always say I look at the black and white and face value and on that basis CCFC the business which it is, is worthless and is pissing away money and its fair to say is dying slowly but surely. Investors are exactly that, they invest in this case money to gain more money over a set period and with hedgefunds this is normally short term and we are what 7 years and counting. I just think everything has its tipping point in life and everything has its day.

I just want cov back in cov short term and then long term sort this mess out with club and stadium together. It took years to go tits up it will take years to repair it. We are lucky we are not playing league 2 football and we have a good manager else I dread to think if we hadn't got SP and playing league 2 next year as at the moment ccfc is going only one way and its not up.

 

[sw88]

So it has been paid but not given to acl yet

'An' amount has been paid into an account. Not necessarily 'the' amount.

The mystery goes on......

 

[Godiva]

Why a mistake exactly? Rejecting the CVA will result in ACL receiving the same amount of money back as if they had accepted it.

Read their arguments for voting against the CVA:

“This decision was based on ACL’s twin aims: first, to keep Coventry City Football Club playing in Coventry; and second, to ensure that Coventry City Football Club is financially viable for the next few years and beyond. This last point is especially important given that CCFC has been the subject of a ‘catastrophic insolvency’ in the hands of its previous owners.

If they wanted to achieve those two goals: Keep the club at the Ricoh and make sure the club is financial viable for the future, then they failed. Didn't they?

They may get the same money from the administration, but the club is gone and so the income is way down in ACL. As CCC is part of ACL they should also consider the loss of income in businesses sitting close to the stadium. Losing some 300.000 punters a year is surely hurting.

 

[shmmeee]

Maybe because they lost their anchor tenant.

IMHO if the CVA had been accepted, ACL would have their money and we would be back at the Ricoh by now.

How would we?

We'd already decided to move at that point, Sisu would be in just a strong position WRT negotiations, the lease would be broken.

What sign was there that Sisu were willing to accept a rental deal? On the other hand, what sign was there that the council would suddenly sell?

We'd be just where we are.

 

[Ian1779]

Why would we be back?

Also in pretty much every private business I've worked in you pursue creditors for what you are owed, even if they are your best customer. You don't just let them off with it. If you get a reputation for letting your customers mess you about over debts owed all your customers will soon be doing it.

Because I believe they may have been able to negotiate a deal if it hadn't happened as it did. That's merely my opinion.

ACL turned down the maximum amount they could get remember.

 

[shmmeee]

Because I believe they may have been able to negotiate a deal if it hadn't happened as it did. That's merely my opinion.

ACL turned down the maximum amount they could get remember.

What sort of deal? Rental or ownership?

 

[Ian1779]

What sort of deal? Rental or ownership?

Probably one similar to the one that was due to happen back in 2012 as a starting point. But whatever the deal the rejection ramped up the hatred to a new level.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I half understand that but not fully as yourself. You may be right but like I always say I look at the black and white and face value and on that basis CCFC the business which it is, is worthless and is pissing away money and its fair to say is dying slowly but surely. Investors are exactly that, they invest in this case money to gain more money over a set period and with hedgefunds this is normally short term and we are what 7 years and counting. I just think everything has its tipping point in life and everything has its day.

I just want cov back in cov short term and then long term sort this mess out with club and stadium together. It took years to go tits up it will take years to repair it. We are lucky we are not playing league 2 football and we have a good manager else I dread to think if we hadn't got SP and playing league 2 next year as at the moment ccfc is going only one way and its not up.

I don't disagree with you, although the club's owned by a private equity arm rather than the hedge fund.

Now those funds look for anywhere about 7-10 years (I think!) as a timespan. (not that this is really long term, either)

Concerningly... if (if) it was the same fund we started with (the emergence of ARVO suggests maybe not btw, in which case...when will it end!) then the dates given for a new ground etc. would all kind of fit, at least...

 

[Godiva]

I half understand that but not fully as yourself. You may be right but like I always say I look at the black and white and face value and on that basis CCFC the business which it is, is worthless and is pissing away money and its fair to say is dying slowly but surely. Investors are exactly that, they invest in this case money to gain more money over a set period and with hedgefunds this is normally short term and we are what 7 years and counting. I just think everything has its tipping point in life and everything has its day.

I just want cov back in cov short term and then long term sort this mess out with club and stadium together. It took years to go tits up it will take years to repair it. We are lucky we are not playing league 2 football and we have a good manager else I dread to think if we hadn't got SP and playing league 2 next year as at the moment ccfc is going only one way and its not up.

Leaving the 'creative accounting stuff' aside I agree with your last sentence. We need the club back asap and start to rebuild both financially and in the leagues.
But I am quite sure there will be no easy compromise. To me it seems unlikely sisu will do anything to open negotiations. Only if ACL comes back and agree to start negotiations for the Higgs shares based on the original road map as well as the CCC's shares and a 125 yr long lease in exchange for the £14m loan, only then will I start hoping something can happen.

Many here advocate that sisu should put an open bid in the public domaine - well, that won't happen. Why not ask ACL to go back to the table and use the road map as a starting point?

 

[bigfatronssba]

Read their arguments for voting against the CVA:


If they wanted to achieve those two goals: Keep the club at the Ricoh and make sure the club is financial viable for the future, then they failed. Didn't they?

They may get the same money from the administration, but the club is gone and so the income is way down in ACL. As CCC is part of ACL they should also consider the loss of income in businesses sitting close to the stadium. Losing some 300.000 punters a year is surely hurting.

I didn't disagree that they had failed in their aims, just this comment from you "Voting against the CVA hoping sisu would leave was a mistake that would mean sacking the entire board and strategic management in any normal private business".

If ACL was any normal private business then it would give a toss what happened to the football club so long as they got their money back.

A private business also wouldn't not greave the loss of an anchor tenant that refused to pay its bills. It would be more interested in how they will adapt the business going forward.

 

[Sick Boy]

Why a mistake exactly? Rejecting the CVA will result in ACL receiving the same amount of money back as if they had accepted it.

Who gives a fuck about ACL? The sooner them and SISU disappear the club can move forward.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Probably one similar to the one that was due to happen back in 2012 as a starting point. But whatever the deal the rejection ramped up the hatred to a new level.

The problem is, once emotions get in the way, it's hard to say that an event stops something as the result takes on an almost inevitable path regardless.

We can only hope love and hate aren't too far apart, and before you know it Fisher and Mutton are wrestling naked in front of an open fire.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Who gives a fuck about ACL? The sooner them and SISU disappear the club can move forward.

Who gives a fuck about the CVA? It hasn't affected the club in the slightest.

 

[Como]

I also have a major headache trying to work out what the SISU grand plan is.

Making the Club a going concern and selling at a profit - not sure if it can be done, but if that is their plan there is no obvious sign of it.

Some sort of spectacular legal win - as others have said the only thing seems to be the JR and am unclear as to how they would benefit. ACL might have to re mortgage, but more than that? Do they hope to see the golden paper come out of disclosure?

They have racked up all this debt, the loans, but I would have thought that just like CCC and ACL every now and then they would need to reappraise the value of these loans for accounting purposes. What Auditor os going to sign off on them having full value?

Perhaps they want to gradually take the value of the loans down and it is worth subsidising the club to do so?

People do things that are irrational, like buying a Football Club, but they are supposed to be hard nosed money people.