Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (8 Viewers)

[RoboCCFC90]

"Ince, 46, who managed Blackburn in the Premier League in 2008, told BBC's Football Focus Forum that the Rooney Rule is "something we should implement into our game" to increase the number of black managers - currently there is only Chris Powell at Huddersfield and Carlisle's Keith Curle.

"We had a two week spell last year where everyone was talking about it, then all of a sudden it's been and gone," said Ince.

"It's hard to say that the people are racist and won't give you a job because you're black, but it does make you wonder why there aren't so many black managers and coaches."

Clarke has insisted he won't resign, saying he has "fought behind the scenes" for the interests of black managers and the idea of trialling the Rooney Rule would have been tabled by a board member - Kleanthous - until he lost his seat after Barnet were relegated out of the football league in 2013.
But Kleanthous, a former Football Association director, said he was "extremely disappointed" at Clarke's comments.

"I had not intended to specifically bring the Rooney Rule to the 2013 AGM of the Football League or propose a trial, although I had considered the matter in the context of the wider agenda," said the 48-year-old.

"If he was serious about the subject then my departure would have been the catalyst for him to get fully involved in supporting this worthy cause rather than just another excuse to hide behind.

"It should also be noted that my team were relegated nearly two seasons ago so he has had ample opportunity to show proper leadership.

"It is therefore evident that I do not support his comments nor his efforts to use me as a shield to deflect the justified criticism away from him.

BBC Sport contacted Clarke for a response, but he declined to comment further."

I don't know about anyone else but I wish the bloke would do one and stop using race as an excuse, poor manager who has failed at several Clubs and thankfully did not get offered the chance to put us further in the mire before we plucked for Mark Robins.


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[skybluetony176]

"Positive discrimination" to get more black manager's appointed in the professional game isn't the answer. It doesn't teach us anything about the situation for starter's. The only way to address discrimination is to deal directly with the root causes.

Do we need to bring a rule in that says that each team should have a percentage of English born player's of Asian decent in your team because that's a figure that is way out of balance compared to the UK's population?

 

[mrtrench]

I had to google the Rooney rule - I imagined it was something to do with petulance or sleeping with aged prostitutes.

He certainly has a point, the statistics don't lie: the proportion of non-WASP players is far greater than the number of managers. So even if there is not explicit racism it is implicit. The question is how best to address it. If the Rooney Rule is working in the States then why not give it a try here?

 

[Astute]

There may be a lack of black managers. But is he saying that all clubs are racist as they don't have a black manager? Most clubs would get the best manager that they can. They don't go by the colour of skin. Maybe as time goes by there will be more. This will be because there are now many more black players in this country than there used to be. But if he took a closer look he would notice that most of the top black players are from other countries. I would guess they leave this country once they stop playing here.

And if these clubs don't get the best managers not dependent on their colour why do they sign black players? This country is becoming a joke. Many places don't feel as though they can take on the best people available but have to have a certain amount of black people and women. Candidates should be chosen on ability and nothing else.

 

[mrtrench]

"Positive discrimination" to get more black manager's appointed in the professional game isn't the answer. It doesn't teach us anything about the situation for starter's. The only way to address discrimination is to deal directly with the root causes.

Do we need to bring a rule in that says that each team should have a percentage of English born player's of Asian decent in your team because that's a figure that is way out of balance compared to the UK's population?

I'm sorry, but your liberal incorrect use of the apostrophe automatically makes me discount your opinion as not thought through. Do you think that it is fair of me?

 

[mrtrench]

But is he saying that all clubs are racist as they don't have a black manager?

No he isn't. Try this one:

All cats are animals. Some animals are grey. Does that imply that all cats are grey?

 

[Astute]

"Positive discrimination" to get more black manager's appointed in the professional game isn't the answer. It doesn't teach us anything about the situation for starter's. The only way to address discrimination is to deal directly with the root causes.

Do we need to bring a rule in that says that each team should have a percentage of English born player's of Asian decent in your team because that's a figure that is way out of balance compared to the UK's population?

Don't forget the Polish. There is a fair few of them living here now. And stop foreign players coming to this country if their isn't many people living in this country from where they come from?

Where would it stop?

 

[Astute]

No he isn't. Try this one:

All cats are animals. Some animals are grey. Does that imply that all cats are grey?

So what is he saying is the reason then?

Next we will be hearing that there are no women managers in the FL. We have women officials now so why not?

 

[Sbarcher]

Out of interest, I wonder how many of those players go on to take/pass their coaching badges?
Also, I'd say the majority (certainly in the Prem) are foreigners who no doubt return home when they've made their pile.
Finally, it's talent and ability that counts - not the colour of your skin.

 

[mrtrench]

He is saying that there is an implicit racism throughout the entire football league. That means that it isn't explicit: he's not accusing any one person or club of deliberately excluding non-whites. It could even be that black players are discouraged from applying because they perceive they will not succeed - so it is a vicious circle of non-intentional exclusion.

 

[lewys33]

As much as he may be correct, I don't think picking the best man for the job should be tarnished with potential racial discrimination. In any workplace.

 

[covcity4life]

same as the asian footballer thing imo, clearly some sort of discrimination at a certain level in the game but i dont think its widespread or insurmountable.

 

[ccfcway]

out of interest, how many of the africian countries managers are black ?

 

[stupot07]

I had to google the Rooney rule - I imagined it was something to do with petulance or sleeping with aged prostitutes.

He certainly has a point, the statistics don't lie: the proportion of non-WASP players is far greater than the number of managers. So even if there is not explicit racism it is implicit. The question is how best to address it. If the Rooney Rule is working in the States then why not give it a try here?

I agree, worth a try.


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[The Lurker]

when paul ince name was mentioned for the Cov post, no-one wanted him. Was that racist? Of course not.

John Barnes prime example. He did an awful job at Celtic (which lets be honest probably the easiest job you could) he then came out after brandishing the race card. Regardless of colour age, if your good enough you'll get the job. Regardless of colour. No one should be given a job over colour whether it's black or white

 

[stupot07]

when paul ince name was mentioned for the Cov post, no-one wanted him. Was that racist? Of course not.

John Barnes prime example. He did an awful job at Celtic (which lets be honest probably the easiest job you could) he then came out after brandishing the race card. Regardless of colour age, if your good enough you'll get the job. Regardless of colour. No one should be given a job over colour whether it's black or white

Rooney's law isn't about giving someone a job, it's about giving them an opportunity to be interviewed. Public services and a lot of other private companies in the uk run a guarenteed interview scheme for people who have a disability. They only get the job if they're good enough.


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[skybluetony176]

I'm sorry, but your liberal incorrect use of the apostrophe automatically makes me discount your opinion as not thought through. Do you think that it is fair of me?

So you're saying that discrimination can be positive?

 

[The Lurker]

Rooney's law isn't about giving someone a job, it's about giving them an opportunity to be interviewed. Public services and a lot of other private companies in the uk run a guarenteed interview scheme for people who have a disability. They only get the job if they're good enough.


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Surely that's the equivalent to the equality act of 2010 which is law?

 

[rupert_bear]

There are plenty of foreign managers in English professional football from all over the world. 92 pro English teams and I have counted 10 foreign managers so 10% that isn't bad. Now if people are saying candidates are not being appointed because of the colour of their skin that's different. We need to know how many black players apply for vacant jobs and how many get as far as an interview.

 

[tisza]

1.How many black managers are there in the other top European leagues - Spain, Italy, germany, France, Holland?
2. How many black coaches/assistant managers are there in the premier league?
3. What % of people doing their coaching badges etc. are black?
4. How many black owners are there?
All relevant questions before just saying football is racist because there aren't many black managers.
Maybe the PFA needs to look at itself. When 30% of players are black why does their union only have 6 black people out of the 54 listed on their management staff profiles?
I'd be concerned if the answers to questions 2 and 3 were as disproportionate as the numbers of black managers.

 

[stupot07]

Surely that's the equivalent to the equality act of 2010 which is law?

I believe it is different to that act. The act is not being able to discriminate because of disability not give a guaranteed interview.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/61188/gis.pdf


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[Covstu]

I think a fairer assessment is around how many black coaches/managers have passed their badges and cannot get a managers job. If this is high then we have a potential problem. Ince was a superb player but an awful manager, thats not because he was black it was because he simply wasnt good enough.

Taking the premier league as an example, how many English managers do we have? Not many, does this show that the league is racist? No it actually demonstrates that the league is very multi cultural. The race card is used increasingly, i was very disappointed by Sol Campbell's comments in his book stating that the FA were racist as he was never picked as England Captain. I think Mr Ince might disagree with that statement maybe?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

i was very disappointed by Sol Campbell's comments in his book stating that the FA were racist as he was never picked as England Captain. I think Mr Ince might disagree with that statement maybe?

Sol put that inhis book knowing full well it would be picked up on immediately by the media....creating great free publicity....

...Of course he would have got even more publicity if he'd stated that the FA were homophobic.....

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Guaranteed interviews is probably as far as this should go. Ince was/is a poor manager, that's why he hasn't found work, but if the problem is that ethnic minorities don't feel they stand a chance of being hired then automatic interviews is the way forward.

 

[covcity4life]

Guaranteed interviews is probably as far as this should go. Ince was/is a poor manager, that's why he hasn't found work, but if the problem is that ethnic minorities don't feel they stand a chance of being hired then automatic interviews is the way forward.

ill be the next cov manager

 

[fernandopartridge]

I know. I'm a shit manager and often get sacked so I'm implicitly blame it on the colour of my skin.

 

[fernandopartridge]

In seriousness, though. The number of black managers is disproportionate to the number of (former) players probably. I would expect it to be nearer 1 in 10. Without the numbers of former black players that's a guess based on numbers of black players in teams.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Guaranteed interviews is probably as far as this should go. Ince was/is a poor manager, that's why he hasn't found work, but if the problem is that ethnic minorities don't feel they stand a chance of being hired then automatic interviews is the way forward.

Automatic interviews for everybody if it is genuine equality of opportunity.

 

[Moff]

I know. I'm a shit manager and often get sacked so I'm implicitly blame it on the colour of my skin.

If you are green in colour, I suggest you may have some sort of infection , lets say gangrene for example. I can imagine that may hum a little so suggest you may be being sacked because you smell and that the green colour you are is merely just an indication of deeper problems eg) you smell, smelly

If you are not green fernando, then please ignore the above!

 

[harvey098]

What a load of bollocks. I'm actually angered by this. There a plenty of black players at every level. Why do they think football isn't racist to players but suddenly becomes racist to managers? If a black player is scoring 30 goals a season in the premier league, every club in the country wants them. If a black manager had the best win ratio in the premier league, there is not a club in the country that would turn them down because they're black.

 

[Evo1883]

I suppose if more black managers were around to manage and were good enough ...then they would be appointed , i hate people like ince who pointlessly bring race into an argument

 

[covcity4life]

in usa and american football black players are seen as rough tough junkyard dogs,soldiors on the pitch

but QB is a position for smart cultured players and for many years white players have been (and still are as far as i know) in the majority for that position.

same could be said for players/managers in football.

 

[torchomatic]

Warren Moon. Always an exception to the rule.

in usa and american football black players are seen as rough tough junkyard dogs,soldiors on the pitch

but QB is a position for smart cultured players and for many years white players have been (and still are as far as i know) in the majority for that position.

same could be said for players/managers in football.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I suppose if more black managers were around to manage and were good enough ...then they would be appointed , i hate people like ince who pointlessly bring race into an argument

It's hardly pointless. Footballing bodies across the world have long campaigned (rightly) to 'kick racism out of football'. So when there are so few black managers, utterly disproportionate to the number of players, well, you have to raise an eyebrow.

 

[covcity4life]

Warren Moon. Always an exception to the rule.

i said majority, and when are black players gonna stop being the exception one could ask?