Higgs Share Update (4 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Christ. It isn't unusual for the original owners to buy a company that's been in administration.

Is it unusual for that to happen after the company was put into administration for a debt it owed itself?

 

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[ccfc92]

Is it unusual for that to happen after the company was put into administration for a debt it owed itself?

I thought it was over the rent owed to ACL?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I thought it was over the rent owed to ACL?

SISU put a debenture in place around the same time they started the rent boycott, and this allowed them to put CCFC Ltd in administration at a moment's notice. If they hadn't done so ACL would have put the club in administration first, appointed their administrator and sold the company to someone else.

 

[Calista]

@Lesreidpolitics: @NickFessi 3/3 Correction,#CCFC letter to council says liquidatrs had till yday to confirm they want to make offer for 1,758,056 £1 shares..

I’m no financial expert (and I’m damned if I can work that Twitter thing!) but doesn’t the correction mentioned here solve the £1.75m vs. £2.77m conundrum? Surely “£1 shares” is just a standard term for the shares in a company – it doesn’t mean the shares are actually valued at £1 each. So CCFC Ltd. can make whatever offer they see fit for (approx.) 1.75 million shares?

 

[Kingokings204]

Christ. It isn't unusual for the original owners to buy a company that's been in administration.

It is in football. I wouldn't know about the outside of football world.

They fucked the club up and then bough it back.

Would an independent administrator of given the club back to otium? Be honest

 

[Kingokings204]

Worked it out a long time ago. Just pointing it out , yet again .

Edit.
Just a question , which I don't know the answer to, if Sisu/A N other bought CCFC Ltd out of admin/liquidation , would all bets be off, so to speak and everything revert back to Ccfc Ltd ? .

Good question but I highly doubt it. It failed the CVA which would of done that so it legally has to be liquidated I would of thought. Not an expert though but surely that has to be the case else you could screw over your creditors over every time.

 

[wingy]

Surely It's obvious that the reason for not completing the liquidation was entirely should a scenario such as this arise .

In reality there Is no prospect of SISU buying out the Higgs ,whatever wrangling going on now Is to be a fly In the ointment of the expected deal Completion .

Is there any value to SISU In that ?



My assumption Is the CVA rejection was to prevent the pick up of the option through the agreed Admin purchase by Otium .

To complete a deal for the 50% should Higgs go renegade would cost SISU a significant Injection In to LTD to settle out Creditors ,while

having to offer Higgs significantly more than Wasps .

Maybe Higgs and SISU are both playing the same game ,both could be obstructions to Wasps being In sole control .

If SISU were to pursue all options and try to halt the deal ,Is there Value In Wasps offering to Compensate them .

There might be a spare £10M floating that wasn't ultimately needed when buying the CCC share ,Contingency fund maybe ?

Keep dreaming wingy!!!!!

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is it unusual for that to happen after the company was put into administration for a debt it owed itself?

That I don't know. Potentially.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It is in football. I wouldn't know about the outside of football world.

They fucked the club up and then bough it back.

Would an independent administrator of given the club back to otium? Be honest

Due to the fact they were the largest creditor and were able to bid without having to actually pay anything, then yes, an independent administrator would have sold the club to them imo.

 

[Kingokings204]

Due to the fact they were the largest creditor and were able to bid without having to actually pay anything, then yes, an independent administrator would have sold the club to them imo.

If that's genuinely what you think then fair enough but I disagree. An independent administrator would of saw differently but then I am no expert so it's all guessing. I just can't see it.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Why can't we have a normal football club.

We are Coventry

 

[skybluetony176]

That I don't know. Potentially.

To be honest I was shocked it's legal because it seems obvious that it could/would be open to abuse. I don't pretend to know a lot about these things but I did talk to one of my bosses about it who not only has experience in being a party owed money by a company in administration but has also bought the assets of a company that was in administration and he said I was talking bollocks when I told him what had happened with CCFC Ltd. He actually went to the trouble of checking it out and was flabbergasted to find out I was right. Flabbergasted because he could see how it's open to abuse.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It is in football. I wouldn't know about the outside of football world.

They fucked the club up and then bough it back.

Would an independent administrator of given the club back to otium? Be honest

Possibly not, which is why SISU filed the debenture when they first started trying to financially distress ACL. As Fisher said at the time, it was 'One SISU company guarding the interests of another SISU company'. They knew very well what they were doing.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Surely It's obvious that the reason for not completing the liquidation was entirely should a scenario such as this arise .

In reality there Is no prospect of SISU buying out the Higgs ,whatever wrangling going on now Is to be a fly In the ointment of the expected deal Completion .

Is there any value to SISU In that ?



My assumption Is the CVA rejection was to prevent the pick up of the option through the agreed Admin purchase by Otium .

To complete a deal for the 50% should Higgs go renegade would cost SISU a significant Injection In to LTD to settle out Creditors ,while

having to offer Higgs significantly more than Wasps .

Maybe Higgs and SISU are both playing the same game ,both could be obstructions to Wasps being In sole control .

If SISU were to pursue all options and try to halt the deal ,Is there Value In Wasps offering to Compensate them .

There might be a spare £10M floating that wasn't ultimately needed when buying the CCC share ,Contingency fund maybe ?

Keep dreaming wingy!!!!!

The only major creditors Ltd has are the other SISU companies and ACL, but ACL have already received payment as part of the golden share deal with the League. Fact of the matter remains that there was clearly a deal to be done with the Higgs and the Council and we could've had one if we negotiated rather than attempt to drive down the price through 'other' means.

 

[win9nut]

The way I see it is that CCC have enticed Wasps to Coventry and secured the future of the Ricoh going forwards, therefore one clear objective has been met by CCC. Also by enticing Wasps up north, they have increased the profile of Coventry, if not now, then in the medium/long term.

I also think it would be in Wasps interest to allow SISU to become 50% owners in ACL to ensure CCFC don't up sticks. They will then still benefit from the additional footfall on 23 days per year going forwards indefinitely, and the stadiums reputation can only increase with football and rugby being played there.

Regarding the ownership concerns of fans, I feel that these are largely (not completely) unfounded as SISU may well become part owners of the company, but when SISU do decide to exit, after everything that has happened who on earth would buy CCFC without the 50% share in ACL? Also, what sense (business or otherwise) would there be in liquidating a company that is cash positive and therefore has value.

I don't see any other strategy that could be implemented by SISU or Wasps that would allow mutual prosperity.

 

[rupert_bear]

Do you all think Steve Waggott is doing a good job ?

 

[Nick]

Do you all think Steve Waggott is doing a good job ?

Do we all thing you have some sort of personal agenda against him?

 

[ecky]

I just hope that the club does somehow end up with the 50% either the club is as good as dead.
I can't believe I really want SISU to get this share, but for the good of this once great club ,its this or goodbye to the club we all love and cherish

I don't want Sisu to get anything, I hope wasps get the other half
The quicker we get rid of Sisu the better...

 

[stupot07]

I don't want Sisu to get anything, I hope wasps get the other half
The quicker we get rid of Sisu the better...

Ffs..........


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[mattylad]

I find some of this confusing to be honest as with some of his other tweets. I am also reminded that some of his previous "exclusives" have been wholly inaccurate.

I would also suggest that the information such as he has it is not coming from ACL, Wasps, or Charity. It may be that he has sourced it from CCC but I think perhaps another source is more likely. But who knows.

At this stage what has it got to do with CCFC? At this stage under the terms of the option agreement between AEHC & CCFC Ltd the letters approaches etc should be from the liquidator only. No one else has right of challenge.

If the figure offered is 1.75m why would they think that would be successful? when apparently CCC received 2.77m. AEHC would expect the same surely? I do not buy in to it was 2.77m for both sets of shares (as per his later tweets )because then CCFC ltd would only need to offer £1.39m. In any case 2.77m for both is contradicted by his own post 5/5 above

Why write to CCC. The Council & Wasps have both said that 50% now belongs to Wasps. That deal is done. Wasps are making the decisions at ACL along with AEHC for now.

The current deadline is for expressions of interest/intention from CCFC Ltd to purchase 50% of ACL. As such the fine details are not fundamental to expressing such an interest. AS such any other parties Otium, Byng etc need to deal with the liquidator to get information etc.

Are AEHC able to disclose any details at the moment, I would think not because it is all wrapped up in NDA's and stakeholders agreement. CCC no longer has an interest in terms of shares or directors at ACL. So what influence can CCC have on ACL now or AEHC? Unless perhaps the loan was never repaid

Did the loan get bought out. That has not been confirmed by anyone who really knows. If it were bought out then that means ACL now owes Wasps 14.4m the loan hasnt gone away and is not split between any of the past or present stakeholders in terms of liability - limited liability of companies does not work that way. ACL owes it

Who was the letter from? solicitors or Otium, or TF or JS. Surely any expression of problems has to come from the liquidator as only he controls the option right

Of course SISU might claim that they have beneficial control of it through the Otium when they bought the other assets ...... except that the option can not be transferred without the agreement of AEHC, my understanding is that this has never happened.

Is there a defined time limit at all in the agreement? I understand that expressions of interest were in 14 days yes but that a reasonable amount of time needs to be set aside for a deal - what is reasonable? I would suggest it is not 2 weeks but equally it is not 6 months either.

The value can not be defined by the option because whilst CCFC Ltd owe ACL the calculation can not be operated. The only part being activated is the right for CCFC Ltd to be notified of any bid received by AEHC and an opportunity for CCFC Ltd to make a counter offer

I would think that in the circumstances AEHC is doing everything by the letter of any agreement, be it options or NDA. Sorry to say but other than Wasps I do not think other than looking like doing something and causing obstruction there is much substance to any other "interest"/intention

It may well be that the commercial deal done with Wasps by the Council has placed a market valuation on the Higgs 50 that brings the formula price for CCFC ltd option down to 1.75M
If so its no wonder that Higgs want to sell to Wasps and not CCFC ltd as you would want to maximise the return on the investment
Or of course it could just be the relationship between Higgs and SISU is so non existent that they would rather sell to Wasps than see SISU get 50% even if it means the football club being doomed to non existent future in the lower leagues of the football pyramid
Must be time to start tying balloons to cars again

 

[mattylad]

Surely It's obvious that the reason for not completing the liquidation was entirely should a scenario such as this arise .

In reality there Is no prospect of SISU buying out the Higgs ,whatever wrangling going on now Is to be a fly In the ointment of the expected deal Completion .

Is there any value to SISU In that ?



My assumption Is the CVA rejection was to prevent the pick up of the option through the agreed Admin purchase by Otium .

To complete a deal for the 50% should Higgs go renegade would cost SISU a significant Injection In to LTD to settle out Creditors ,while

having to offer Higgs significantly more than Wasps .

Maybe Higgs and SISU are both playing the same game ,both could be obstructions to Wasps being In sole control .

If SISU were to pursue all options and try to halt the deal ,Is there Value In Wasps offering to Compensate them .

There might be a spare £10M floating that wasn't ultimately needed when buying the CCC share ,Contingency fund maybe ?

Keep dreaming wingy!!!!!

Sorry Wingy the entire purchase price had to be dropped 10m just so Wasps could have the funding in place. They were short of what was needed at one stage hence why they were chasing Bings investors.

 

[italiahorse]

I don't want Sisu to get anything, I hope wasps get the other half
The quicker we get rid of Sisu the better...

The trouble is that it does not guarantee that Sisu will go.

We need to understand what is driving them.
Like you, perhaps, I'm thinking that once the Ricoh is not available for sale their plan of getting it cheap bringing back the club and selling at a profit is over and they will move on.

Other than that I can't understand why they are here.
The fans have shown that they are not guaranteed to attend in great numbers at a new stadium and because of that a further injection for the build would be suicide.

I think even with Wasps getting 50% it has scuppered their plans so in that respect I would like Sisu/CCFC to buy into the other 50% if that is possible.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

From a certain perspective, Council selling to a private company probably gives a better chance of it being available cheaper further down the line.

Councils may have financial troubles but tend not to go bust, unlike a private company with no ties to the area.

Rationally, you'd wait and see how the wasps move pans out...

 

[italiahorse]

From a certain perspective, Council selling to a private company probably gives a better chance of it being available cheaper further down the line.

Councils may have financial troubles but tend not to go bust, unlike a private company with no ties to the area.

Rationally, you'd wait and see how the wasps move pans out...

I want closure on this.
Waiting for Wasps to fall over just drags it on and on.

Sisu need to buy into the other 50%, if they can.

 

[Calista]

It may well be that the commercial deal done with Wasps by the Council has placed a market valuation on the Higgs 50 that brings the formula price for CCFC ltd option down to 1.75M
If so its no wonder that Higgs want to sell to Wasps and not CCFC ltd as you would want to maximise the return on the investment
Or of course it could just be the relationship between Higgs and SISU is so non existent that they would rather sell to Wasps than see SISU get 50% even if it means the football club being doomed to non existent future in the lower leagues of the football pyramid
Must be time to start tying balloons to cars again

I think the £1.75m is probably a misunderstanding. I think it may be 1.75 million £1 shares, with the “£1 shares” just being a standard term for shares in the company.
There’s a correction to this effect on the Twitter site, but I’m not sure whether Les Reid himself has issued it or someone responding to him. See AFCCOVENTRY’s post #81 above.

 

[oldskyblue58]

It may well be that the commercial deal done with Wasps by the Council has placed a market valuation on the Higgs 50 that brings the formula price for CCFC ltd option down to 1.75M
If so its no wonder that Higgs want to sell to Wasps and not CCFC ltd as you would want to maximise the return on the investment
Or of course it could just be the relationship between Higgs and SISU is so non existent that they would rather sell to Wasps than see SISU get 50% even if it means the football club being doomed to non existent future in the lower leagues of the football pyramid
Must be time to start tying balloons to cars again

There is no formula price. The formula can not be used whilst there is a contractual debt to ACL, the amount enforced by the FL did not settle that contractual debt.

The offer to be made has to match at least the offer from Wasps (which was not based on any set historic formula) or AEHC can simply say no thank you. Even if it does match or better the Wasps offer and AEHC accept it, the transaction can still be vetoed by Wasps if they believe it is not in the best interest of Wasps.

Market value for the two sets of shares will essentially be the same. Why would AEHC accept less than CCC - especially when they must know the details in order not to veto it?

The failed CVA had nothing to do with the option or formula price. A CVA has to be offered to all creditors not pick and choose terms

Surely SISU know this.......... if so then this so called new dispute, the letters written, the goings on from their side are nothing more than window dressing unless they have the support of Wasps ........... does anyone really believe that Wasps want anything less than 100%?

Just as an aside, as I understand it the attendances at the Ricoh for CCFC fall well below the anticipated breakeven when the deal was set up, even fall short of the declared attendances some say that means that CCFC are not earning enough to meet the costs, Performance on the pitch indicates there will be no significant increase in crowds any time soon, SISU/ARVO I believe have turned off the funding tap, there are no major transfer fees possible from the current squad, according to the accounts ARVO are due payment of interest and some capital on their loans in December (6 or 7 weeks time), other incomes for the football club are not what were anticipated, marketing is a shambles and failing, CCFC have very few options left and have got only a short term day rent agreement........ etc

1) If it is obvious to us it is obvious to ACL, AEHC & Wasps (a) why would they base their business plan on CCFC being there (b) why would Wasps want such a financial risk as a partner?
2) If the above is true then my biggest and over riding concern is what the hell is going to happen to OUR club....... it seems sooner rather than later it runs out of cash to pay the bills.

Right now I am increasingly concerned about CCFC on and off the pitch. The only chink of light I see is that with the original ACL stakeholders gone there is an opportunity to negotiate a better deal for CCFC without the old baggage of dispute. It is not in Wasps interest for CCFC to fail but I very much doubt that Wasps fail at the Ricoh because CCFC are not there (especially considering the current state of CCFC)

 

[oldfiver]

We do not know the WASPS deal it may not just be the ACL shares. There are serious stories they have also acquired some development rights in their package. I think it not unreasonable the Liquidator of CCFC makes enquiries as to what he will be acquiring and do not see why that should be with held

 

[oldskyblue58]

assuming that Wasps have a 250 year lease on the whole site as has been said then they can do, subject to planning permission and CCC freeholder permission, what they like on the site. But it has always been the case that ACL could develop the site, they just didn't have the money to do it, so what has actually changed?

At the moment the Liquidator requires expressions of serious and well founded intent in salvaging CCFC Ltd and needs to express to AEHC that there is a serious intent on his behalf to take up the option to bid. Has he done and got that?. This current deadline has not been about doing the deal, but acquiring the time to put a proper deal together. No one is going to release information even if there were not NDA's in place unless there is a serious intent and funds to do it.

If Wasps do not want a deal done by CCFC/Otium/ARVO/SISU for their fellow stakeholders shares and their own deal is covered by NDA's what would they be doing right now?...................

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think the £1.75m is probably a misunderstanding. I think it may be 1.75 million £1 shares, with the “£1 shares” just being a standard term for shares in the company.
.

I agree with this

 

[rupert_bear]

Do we all thing you have some sort of personal agenda against him?

/answer the question !! as for a personal agenda, yes I have an agenda as I believe he is the one chiefly responsible for what we are seeing now on the field of play.

 

[skybluetony176]

It may well be that the commercial deal done with Wasps by the Council has placed a market valuation on the Higgs 50 that brings the formula price for CCFC ltd option down to 1.75M
If so its no wonder that Higgs want to sell to Wasps and not CCFC ltd as you would want to maximise the return on the investment
Or of course it could just be the relationship between Higgs and SISU is so non existent that they would rather sell to Wasps than see SISU get 50% even if it means the football club being doomed to non existent future in the lower leagues of the football pyramid
Must be time to start tying balloons to cars again

Is it me or is there a big assumption going around that Higgs want to sell or even need to sell to Wasps, SISU or whoever. Have they actually said this?

Maybe they're content to sit on their share until they are A) ready to sell and B) they approve of the people they are selling to based on the mantra of what they do?

Is it not possible that they will sit on the shares until they are satisfied that whoever they are selling too has the clubs best interests at heart? Which i would argue is neither SISU or Wasps.

Or maybe they are completely sick to the back teeth of it all and just want out, but out to anybody but SISU given what they've been through with them.

 

[torchomatic]

Haven't Higgs said their preferred bidder was Wasps?

Is it me or is there a big assumption going around that Higgs want to sell or even need to sell to Wasps, SISU or whoever. Have they actually said this?

Maybe they're content to sit on their share until they are A) ready to sell and B) they approve of the people they are selling to based on the mantra of what they do?

Is it not possible that they will sit on the shares until they are satisfied that whoever they are selling too has the clubs best interests at heart? Which i would argue is neither SISU or Wasps.

Or maybe they are completely sick to the back teeth of it all and just want out, but out to anybody but SISU given what they've been through with them.

 

[skybluetony176]

Haven't Higgs said their preferred bidder was Wasps?

Probably missed that amongst all the drivel.

Does anyone have a link?

 

[Godiva]

assuming that Wasps have a 250 year lease on the whole site as has been said then they can do, subject to planning permission and CCC freeholder permission, what they like on the site. But it has always been the case that ACL could develop the site, they just didn't have the money to do it, so what has actually changed?

Could it be that the Wasps deal has incorporated an obligation to build a hotel or other development targets within a certain timeframe? If so, that will require capital and it would not be unreasonable to ask for specifics.

BTW, would it be possible to revive ccfc ltd (out of liquidation and back into trading) and what would it take?
The lease part is I suppose the tricky part?

 

[torchomatic]

I've been looking and I've found a few things that mention it. From quite a few different sources too, so there may be some truth in it.

Probably missed that amongst all the drivel.

Does anyone have a link?