Delusion? (28 Viewers)

[MichaelCCFC]

Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

 

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[LB87ccfc]

Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

Some fantastic points and fans are starting to vote with their feet albeit slowly by staying away from the Ricoh with attendances dropping.

 

[theferret]

Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

Good post, and point 4 is on the money. Those who think Wasps have any plans to buy the football club are, indeed, delusional.

 

[AndreasB]

Some fantastic points and fans are starting to vote with their feet albeit slowly by staying away from the Ricoh with attendances dropping.

Slowly? 1 week after the return they dropped by two thirds.

 

[covcity4life]

micheal why did you support the council in first place? they mugged you off in the end

 

[MichaelCCFC]

micheal why did you support the council in first place? they mugged you off in the end

Delusion can also apply to people repeatedly making stuff up. I've always been pro team and pro fan and that's it. If you can provide a shred of evidence to back up your claim then do so, otherwise it's another example of wishful thinking/delusion. More interesting would be your response to the 4 points in the OP.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Michael I don't think there are any city fans that think it is a good deal other those that think it may lead to SISU leaving but now that we are cash neutral they will hang on even if there is another relegation. The silence from Fisher & Waggot is deafening, can't provide reassurances to fans because they haven't got any. Mamimising revenue, owning our own ground are valid aspirations but not a divine right, SISU haven't got the finances or the imagination to do either.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Michael I don't think there are any city fans that think it is a good deal other those that think it may lead to SISU leaving but now that we are cash neutral they will hang on even if there is another relegation. The silence from Fisher & Waggot is deafening, can't provide reassurances to fans because they haven't got any. Mamimising revenue, owning our own ground are valid aspirations but not a divine right, SISU haven't got the finances or the imagination to do either.

At the start of this week there were posts saying wasps will be good for ccfc and the city of coventry

 

[stupot07]

Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

1. They don't help.
2. Yes, but how? We can't force them, we've boycotted, we've sung "sisu out", we've protested. Unfortunately sisu will only leave when they are good and ready.
3. There is no evidence
4. There is no evidence


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[Grendel]

At the start of this week there were posts saying wasps will be good for ccfc and the city of coventry

There still are

 

[dongonzalos]

You would be very hard pushed to find someone who thinks it is good for CCFC.
It just seems that those who understand why the council did what they did are perceived as thinking it is a good thing.

 

[dongonzalos]

At the start of this week there were posts saying wasps will be good for ccfc and the city of coventry

Who says it is good for CCFC?

What evidence is there to say it is bad for Coventry?

 

[MichaelCCFC]

1. They don't help.
2. Yes, but how? We can't force them, we've boycotted, we've sung "sisu out", we've protested. Unfortunately sisu will only leave when they are good and ready.
3. There is no evidence
4. There is no evidence





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

The sixfields campaign succeeded and different pressure could now be applied to sisu but some people get upset at the idea of a sisu out chant.

 

[theferret]

Who says it is good for CCFC?

What evidence is there to say it is bad for Coventry?

Anything that is bad for CCFC is bad for Coventry by default.

 

[dongonzalos]

Anything that is bad for CCFC is bad for Coventry by default.

Not if it has a wider benefit bigger than the negative.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Who says it is good for CCFC?

What evidence is there to say it is bad for Coventry?

I'd be more interested in your answers to the OP rather than a response of more questions! Last time I referred to individual posters on here it did not go down well so won't make that mistake again but as already posted above there were posts earlier this week saying wasps will be good for ccfc and the city of coventry.

 

[skybluetony176]

I agree with alot of what you say Micheal. Although if Wasps hedge fund did buy us we would at least have the benefit of shared ground ownership in some form or another. Do I believe it will happen? No, like you've said there is no evidence to say it will. Do I believe that we will be better of under them? Other than access to income, No. At the end of the day they're still a hedge fund.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Not if it has a wider benefit bigger than the negative.

Any chance of a single relevant fact or bit of relevant evidence?

 

[Grendel]

Not if it has a wider benefit bigger than the negative.

To believe that was even a minor consideration in the decision making process makes you look very silly.

 

[Cheshire Sky Blue]

Default Delusion?

Micheal, what the Fuck are you on today? I usually support things you say, but this is a rant too far.


Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

I have not heard or seen anyone say the deal is great for CCFC. Most feel its shit, but don't feel that the blame lies with CCC, Higgs or Wasps. The blame is with SISU and them alone. What evidence are you looking for? We all know the situation is shite and there will never be evidence to the contrary.


2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

We all know that SISU's ownership won't improve (unless your RFC of course) and I disagree we are at the lowest point in a generation. We are at the lowest point in our entire history and that is entirely the doing of SISU.

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

There is no evidence at all, and even if we wait for a million 'three weeks' to pass there will still be no evidence.

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

You are way too premature here. less than 4 weeks in and you want evidence. You have clearly been damaged by the way SISU operate. But try to take a reasonable perspective. After all it is almost inconceivable that anyone could be as chronically inept and malicious as our current owners. Sure Wasps are good at communicating. If only Timmy & Joy were! True there is no evidence they wish to buy us? But what evidence would you reasonably expect to see? An advert in the CT Personal column? Posters on the Ring Road saying WE want CCFC?
I am surprised that you have taken such a blinkered view on what may potentially happen. I am gutted that we don't own the RICOH, gutted that we are in the third level of English football and heading for the forth. I would look for the positive in a new owner bringing new hope to a desperate situation. And if, and that is a real long shot, Richardson and Wasps were to offer to take on CCFC I would not be asking them for evidence that they would be better than the shysters we have today, but getting behind them and trying to make the venture work. We are really short on good options right now. This is one of the better options available.

I like you want SISU out. At the moment with the options for better owners being so limited, I would get behind a push to get ACL's owners to bring CCFC and the RICOH back together

That's not being delusional, it's living in hope.

 

[dongonzalos]

Any chance of a single relevant fact or bit of relevant evidence?

Any chance of a single fact or a bit of relevant evidence to suggest wasps coming to Coventry will have a greater negative financial and economic impact than a positive one.

 

[dongonzalos]

To believe that was even a minor consideration in the decision making process makes you look very silly.

To suggest that an entire council would agree on something without considering the economic and financial impacts and purely on the fact they don't like SISU is naive to say the least.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Any chance of a single fact or a bit of relevant evidence to suggest wasps coming to Coventry will have a greater negative financial and economic impact than a positive one.

My OP was prompted by posters on here making the points to which reference is made in the OP and it is their evidence I'm interested in not responses taken straight from the Nick's handbook!

 

[dongonzalos]

My OP was prompted by posters on here making the points to which reference is made in the OP and it is their evidence I'm interested in not responses taken straight from the Nick's handbook!

Now you are really confusing me?

 

[albatross]

OK so now we have not just CCFC but CCFC and WASPS in town.

CCFC will continue to pull crowds on a Saturday benefitting local businesses . rather than those in Northampton

WASPS will play on a Sunday pulling in Support and have some big European games and clashes with Leicester to come at the Ricoh. That too will benefit the local economy rather than any in High Wycombe.

Just ask any of those businesses that were left high and dry when SISU took CCFC to Northampton if there will be a benefit.

 

[dongonzalos]

My OP was prompted by posters on here making the points to which reference is made in the OP and it is their evidence I'm interested in not responses taken straight from the Nick's handbook!

My answer to your OP is that most people think it is Shyte for CCFC.
However they can understand why the council went for it. It is an absolute no brainer for the council.
Understanding why it has happened is not the same as saying this is a good thing for CCFC.
Understanding why it is good for Coventry as a whole is not the same as saying it is good for CCFC.
You may find the odd person who says it is good for CCFC but I am guessing their opinion is as rare as RFC's

 

[stupot07]

The sixfields campaign succeeded and different pressure could now be applied to sisu but some people get upset at the idea of a sisu out chant.

Yeah, I must admit I don't particularly like it during games, this. Just think it has a negative impact in the team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[theferret]

Not if it has a wider benefit bigger than the negative.

What wider benefit? In many ways the football club IS the city of coventry - it is pretty much the only vehicle through which we can display pride in our home city en masse. It matters to people, it is the only thing capable of bringing the people of the city together. 250K greeted the team home in 87. How many would greet a Wasps team 'home' after a similar victory? Well, none, because nobody would care and I suspect the open top bus would stay in the depot. You can't manufacturer that sort of thing, you cannot make people give a shit. The economic benefits of having Wasps here are grossly overstated, and the benefits of a successful Rugby team pales into insignificance when compared to the economic boost and recognition that comes from having a Premier League football team.

We may be getting historically low gates, but the wider city stills cares about CCFC, and will continue to do so. The fact that our city council have willingly forced through an unnecessary sale to Wasps, driven largely by spite, to the undoubted detriment of CCFC (this city's biggest civic asset) remains a travesty.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

OK so now we have not just CCFC but CCFC and WASPS in town.

CCFC will continue to pull crowds on a Saturday benefitting local businesses . rather than those in Northampton

WASPS will play on a Sunday pulling in Support and have some big European games and clashes with Leicester to come at the Ricoh. That too will benefit the local economy rather than any in High Wycombe.

Just ask any of those businesses that were left high and dry when SISU took CCFC to Northampton if there will be a benefit.

This is a really interesting point. One of sisu's tactics was to claim ccfc leaving the ricoh was costing coventry millions of pounds but that proved to be total bs with not a single company going out of business, no measurable impact on the local economy and similarly no discernible economic benefit in Northampton. The same argument made by sisu is now in effect being employed regarding wasps but again with absolutely no evidence to support it only assertion and conjecture.

 

[dongonzalos]

What wider benefit? In many ways the football club IS the city of coventry - it is pretty much the only vehicle through which we can display pride in our home city en masse. It matters to people, it is the only thing capable of bringing the people of the city together. 250K greeted the team home in 87. How many would greet a Wasps team 'home' after a similar victory? Well, none, because nobody would care and I suspect the open top bus would stay in the depot. You can't manufacturer that sort of thing, you cannot make people give a shit. The economic benefits of having Wasps here are grossly overstated, and the benefits of a successful Rugby team pales into insignificance when compared to the economic boost and recognition that comes from having a Premier League football team.

We may be getting historically low gates, but the wider city stills cares about CCFC, and will continue to do so. The fact that our city council have willingly forced through an unnecessary sale to Wasps, driven largely by spite, to the undoubted detriment of CCFC (this city's biggest civic asset) remains a travesty.

The football club is and always have stated they moving out of Coventry.

They were asked repeatedly to put in a sensible bid for ACL and said freehold or nothing.

They came back and said we are off in 4 years.

For biggest negative Ricoh with no team we have already had that for a year it affects the economy. SISU proved they are willing to do it.

Next best option CCFC at the Ricoh they refused to bid it was freehold or nothing.

Next best option (council eyes) not CCFC fans eyes Wasps at Ricoh to soften blow if SISU do as promised.

Perfect scenario SISU are bluffing you get wasps and CCFC at Ricoh.

As a councillor and not a CCFC do actually have any choice?

 

[dongonzalos]

This is a really interesting point. One of sisu's tactics was to claim ccfc leaving the ricoh was costing coventry millions of pounds but that proved to be total bs with not a single company going out of business, no measurable impact on the local economy and similarly no discernible economic benefit in Northampton. The same argument made by sisu is now in effect being employed regarding wasps but again with absolutely no evidence to support it only assertion and conjecture.

If I give you one single example where it did impact will you be happy?

 

[dongonzalos]

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/counting-cost-sky-blues-move-5667869

 

[MichaelCCFC]

My answer to your OP is that most people think it is Shyte for CCFC.
However they can understand why the council went for it. It is an absolute no brainer for the council.
Understanding why it has happened is not the same as saying this is a good thing for CCFC.
Understanding why it is good for Coventry as a whole is not the same as saying it is good for CCFC.
You may find the odd person who says it is good for CCFC but I am guessing their opinion is as rare as RFC's

The reason for the OP was in part that it's not just the "odd person" as recent threads on here demonstrate.

 

[Ashdown]

Reading some posts on here, in our desperation for a better future are we ignoring reality and disappearing off into wishful thinking or even outright delusion?

1. What is the evidence that makes some people think the ccc-higgs-wasps deal is great? Sisu’s plan is there for all to see: they have cut costs so are not making major losses; short-term contracts mean they can liquidate if needs be; and they get an occasional windfall from selling young players. Ccc-higgs have washed their hands of ccfc leaving us with the cancer that is sisu. How on earth do the actions of ccc-higgs help?

2. Why, when there is not one bit of evidence that sisu’s ownership of CCFC will improve, do some people not agree that sisu out is necessary for us to make progress? The facts are we are at our lowest point for a generation and sisu’s strategy of non-investment, selling anyone they can get money for, proven lying and disdain for supporters is all too evident. Is there a single piece of evidence to show that will change?

3. What is the evidence that makes some people think a new stadium will be built? 18 months into TF's promised 3 year delivery of a new stadium not one bit of concrete progress is evident so on what factual grounds do some people still think it will happen?

4. Where is the evidence that wasps will be good for CCFC as some people keep saying? Wasps do not want City fans being critical of them as that would be awkward and rain on their parade. wasps are clearly good at PR. But this is not a joint venture with CCFC, wasps need to raise a lot more money than provided by ccfc rent so ccfc is not key to their business plan. There is not one jot of evidence they intend buying ccfc but plenty of concrete reasons to suggest this is the last thing they will do. What factual information is there that shows wasps will be good for us?

It will be great if people can provide evidence to show why the wasps deal is great, how it will help CCFC, why sisu's ownership will improve and facts to show the new stadium is progressing. But without evidence, hopes of these things happening looks increasingly like nothing more than wishful thinking if not actual delusion.

I agree with pretty much all that but what's the answer. SISU will only go when they are good and ready. In the meantime people in my opinion should not support the new franchise rugby team.

 

[Jack Griffin]

OK so now we have not just CCFC but CCFC and WASPS in town.

CCFC will continue to pull crowds on a Saturday benefitting local businesses . rather than those in Northampton

WASPS will play on a Sunday pulling in Support and have some big European games and clashes with Leicester to come at the Ricoh. That too will benefit the local economy rather than any in High Wycombe.

Just ask any of those businesses that were left high and dry when SISU took CCFC to Northampton if there will be a benefit.

Rob S was extremely vocal about how bringing CCFC back to Coventry would benefit the local economy, he quoted some huge sum as if he had done serious research (but he never backed up the claim and called for CCC to do a survey). He has been silent about Wasps, but I presume their presence will have a similar positive effect on the local economy.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/any-sky-blues-return-must-6353243

Fellow campaigner Rob Stevens had called for a survey on the economic impact on Coventry of the Sky Blues playing games outside of the city, adding: “We estimate that about £20million is being lost in the city each season without the club here.”