A positive thread (7 Viewers)

[Nick]

Wait a minute, when the council were saying the ricoh wasn't for sale people were angry for SISU not making offers anyway and "things don't get sold until they offer". Now people are asking about these "new buyers" they don't need to make an offer because SISU said it wasn't for sale?

How does that logic work?

 

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[Astute]

Have I said I don't mean them or they were sarcastic?

You didn't answer the point about the academy though?

I would happily say goodbye to our academy if it meant the rest of it was run as it should be. The only use of the academy to us now is to bring young players through to sell them as soon as they have experience and are good enough. If we ever kept any of them I would want to keep the academy 100%.

 

[Nick]

I would happily say goodbye to our academy if it meant the rest of it was run as it should be. The only use of the academy to us now is to bring young players through to sell them as soon as they have experience and are good enough. If we ever kept any of them I would want to keep the academy 100%.

Like a lot of other academies in this league then? Surely an academy is vital to any club?

And people go on about the "usual suspects" who defend SISU (nobody does bar RFC) yet you are doing your best for St Joe and St Gary.

 

[italiahorse]

We could get relegated and bent over for rent at the fantastic stadium and near enough go bust?

The rent was £1.2M yet the debts were increasing at a rate of £7M? a year.
Management fees were well above that figure.

The main problem was not the rent !!

 

[Astute]

Wait a minute, when the council were saying the ricoh wasn't for sale people were angry for SISU not making offers anyway and "things don't get sold until they offer". Now people are asking about these "new buyers" they don't need to make an offer because SISU said it wasn't for sale?

How does that logic work?

More failed logic from you if anything Nick. The freehold wasn't for sale. CCC still has the freehold. It wasn't sold. Although it might as well have been as Wasps negotiated a massive lease extension.


And are you now saying that SISU shouldn't have made any offers to CCC for a lease?

 

[italiahorse]

Er.....??

The reason SISU turned up in the first place because we were about to go to the wall due to being run so welll....

The point I'm making is that most fans were only interested in the top of the iceberg not what is going on underneath.
Similarly fans expect more to be invested in the team yet are not bothered if the incomes support that !!

 

[Astute]

Like a lot of other academies in this league then? Surely an academy is vital to any club?

And people go on about the "usual suspects" who defend SISU (nobody does bar RFC) yet you are doing your best for St Joe and St Gary.

And you must be the new PR for SISU then. So why is the academy vital to us if we lose every decent player before they get many games for us?

 

[Bennets Afro]

They came out with the statement that the club wasn't for sale at the bottom of the cycle whilst all the takeover talk crap was going on. It wasn't as though they said that they would listen to offers.

Everything is for sale! Just depends on the price. Just because they have said the club isnt for sale. It doesn't stop exploratory bids to see what they would find acceptable to sell at. Think of the PR that could generate. To see SISU gone it will take x millions.

Hey the trust could even start a fighting fund to try and raise some money to buy a share

 

[Nick]

The rent was £1.2M yet the debts were increasing at a rate of £7M? a year.
Management fees were well above that figure.

The main problem was not the rent !!

So past owners were charging management fees too?

 

[Nick]

More failed logic from you if anything Nick. The freehold wasn't for sale. CCC still has the freehold. It wasn't sold. Although it might as well have been as Wasps negotiated a massive lease extension.


And are you now saying that SISU shouldn't have made any offers to CCC for a lease?

How is it failed?

If people want to buy something (a lease, a shop, a car, a football club) should they bid or not?

One minute CCFC should bid for the lease, the next potential new owners shouldn't bid for the club because of Tim Fisher saying it isn't for sale?

 

[italiahorse]

So past owners were charging management fees too?

I guess they were but the rent was only a small part of the problem.
Player costs were the biggest yet the emphasis is on ACL charging a high rent.

 

[Astute]

Everything is for sale! Just depends on the price. Just because they have said the club isnt for sale. It doesn't stop exploratory bids to see what they would find acceptable to sell at. Think of the PR that could generate. To see SISU gone it will take x millions.

Hey the trust could even start a fighting fund to try and raise some money to buy a share

If only SISU knew what the word negotiating meant

If SISU would sell for what the club is worth they would just walk away. But who can see it happening?

 

[Nick]

And you must be the new PR for SISU then. So why is the academy vital to us if we lose every decent player before they get many games for us?

So you don't think every club should have an academy?
Are CCFC the only team to sell academy products?
Has every player from our academy we have lost not had many games? How many would you expect? 50+? 100+? 200+?

I am not doing PR, just using common sense.

Think about it like this.

If Tim Fisher came out and said he wanted to close the academy how would you take it?

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Normally as already has been said, £1 is offered and buyer takes on all debts. Surely if SISU were £70m+ in debt they would be throwing the club at a buyer? Doesn't it ring any alarm bells that SISU haven't sold up?...Oh btw Sick Boy..you don't have to be in MENSA to have common sense. Have you been to any "School of sarcasm" lately? You really should, you're not even in the same class as some posters on here come on mate, catch up!

 

[Astute]

How is it failed?

If people want to buy something (a lease, a shop, a car, a football club) should they bid or not?

One minute CCFC should bid for the lease, the next potential new owners shouldn't bid for the club because of Tim Fisher saying it isn't for sale?

So are you now saying that SISU were not told to get round a table and negotiate? Or that SISU have stated that the club isn't for sale at the bottom of the cycle?

Two totally different points that you are saying are the same.

 

[Bennets Afro]

If only SISU knew what the word negotiating meant

If SISU would sell for what the club is worth they would just walk away. But who can see it happening?

No I can't see it happening. If being cash flow positive means they can tread water for the next few years, trying to fluke a double promotions with academy kids like southampton did then why would they sell if there is no need to.

If someone wanted to buy the club and SISU didn't want to sell they would have to pay over the odds. I just don't see anyone even talking to the club about selling so it looks like we are stuck with SISU until the time these consortiums show their faces and approach the club

 

[Astute]

So you don't think every club should have an academy?
Are CCFC the only team to sell academy products?
Has every player from our academy we have lost not had many games? How many would you expect? 50+? 100+? 200+?

I am not doing PR, just using common sense.

Think about it like this.

If Tim Fisher came out and said he wanted to close the academy how would you take it?

Bloody hell Nick. So you are now twisting what I have said. I said that I would say goodbye to the academy if it meant getting rid of SISU. You have twisted it to me saying that clubs don't need an academy.

 

[Nick]

So are you now saying that SISU were not told to get round a table and negotiate? Or that SISU have stated that the club isn't for sale at the bottom of the cycle?

Two totally different points that you are saying are the same.

No, I am saying that people expected SISU to make a bid on the Ricoh stuff yet new owners shouldn't bid because SISU have said it isn't for sale.

Which is it? Should they bid whatever, or should they wait until invited?

I am just interested to know, that's all. We all know how views change depending on who says them rather than the content anyway.

 

[Nick]

Bloody hell Nick. So you are now twisting what I have said. I said that I would say goodbye to the academy if it meant getting rid of SISU. You have twisted it to me saying that clubs don't need an academy.

So SISU go and we have no academy? What happens then? We are in League One, we have no ground of our own and now no academy?

At least SISU have gone though eh?

That is up there with the "I would be happy to see CCFC be a non league club tomorrow if it means SISU have gone" type shit.

 

[Astute]

No, I am saying that people expected SISU to make a bid on the Ricoh stuff yet new owners shouldn't bid because SISU have said it isn't for sale.

Which is it? Should they bid whatever, or should they wait until invited?

I am just interested to know, that's all. We all know how views change depending on who says them rather than the content anyway.

So are you now agreeing that there is a difference between being invited several times to negotiate and being told that something isn't for sale?

 

[Nick]

So are you now agreeing that there is a difference between being invited several times to negotiate and being told that something isn't for sale?

The same as the invite to come and buy the Higgs share? (Knowing full well it couldn't happen)?

Do you think it was all Press Talk?

 

[Astute]

So SISU go and we have no academy? What happens then? We are in League One, we have no ground of our own and now no academy?

At least SISU have gone though eh?

That is up there with the "I would be happy to see CCFC be a non league club tomorrow if it means SISU have gone" type shit.

Once SISU have gone we have a chance to rebuild our club. But whilst they are at our club I see nothing but heartache.

 

[Astute]

The same as the invite to come and buy the Higgs share? (Knowing full well it couldn't happen).

You have a point for once.

 

[Astute]

No I can't see it happening. If being cash flow positive means they can tread water for the next few years, trying to fluke a double promotions with academy kids like southampton did then why would they sell if there is no need to.

If someone wanted to buy the club and SISU didn't want to sell they would have to pay over the odds. I just don't see anyone even talking to the club about selling so it looks like we are stuck with SISU until the time these consortiums show their faces and approach the club

I am in full agreement here. The only problem is what consortium would offer much money for something without much value? The only chance would be if someone took on the debt and for it to be paid back as the club grew. Maybe even within a time span (like SISU did and they ended up having the debt wiped clean as they failed)

 

[Bennets Afro]

I am in full agreement here. The only problem is what consortium would offer much money for something without much value? The only chance would be if someone took on the debt and for it to be paid back as the club grew. Maybe even within a time span (like SISU did and they ended up having the debt wiped clean as they failed)

I agree. Thats why i don't understand why consortiums only seem to show their faces via fans groups. At least approach the club and see what it would take for them to sell. We all know where we stand then

 

[Nick]

You have a point for once.

Don't get me wrong, I would love SISU to be gone for a new owner who is amazing to come in and replace them. If this great new owner did a Wasps type thing of "come look at me, look at my plans, im going to do this" and pretty much was everything SISU aren't then who couldn't argue with that? I think there would be a very tiny amount of fans who would say "No I prefer SISU to this guy". I don't mean somebody to come and bullshit, but somebody who actually will come in and run us properly.

Surely if there was a great person waiting in the wings, if they were sort of "out in the open" as such then it would be a much better start as they are already doing what SISU didn't. Then pretty much all fans would want the same thing wouldn't they? To get this new guy in to run our club properly?

If this guy goes to the club and SISU act like the council did with us buying then I'd be just as outraged. (they probably would)

This is why I am of the opinion that people are giving it the spin about knowing people are there to take over to get people going. Plus the fact as soon as they are questioned they say "oh well thats not important now, just showing sisu we arent happy is the aim".

 

[skybluetony176]

Haven't the club said that no one has made an approach for them? I guess that would be a start point. Someone puts a bid in. It gets rejected and then they talk until they find a suitable solution or the bidding party walks away.

If none of that happens, you can't moan about sisu not want to sell. The posts on FB the other day about Fisher in sainsburys, apparently it was said Joy would sell so why has no consortium contacted them directly?

Apart from selling ACL apparently. You see it's not SISU's fault that they failed to do the Wasps deal for ACL because the council should have offered the same deal to SISU despite the fact they've never made an offer for the councils share, had gone on record as saying the Higgs share is worthless and have also publicly stated that they weren't interested in the Ricoh and moved on.

 

[Bennets Afro]

Apart from selling ACL apparently. You see it's not SISU's fault that they failed to do the Wasps deal for ACL because the council should have offered the same deal to SISU despite the fact they've never made an offer for the councils share, had gone on record as saying the Higgs share is worthless and have also publicly stated that they weren't interested in the Ricoh and moved on.

I never said it was Sisu fault for the wasps deal. I do believe the council no matter what had gone on should of at least invited a bid if only to turn it down. As I could never see the council sell the ricoh to Sisu because of the history between the two.

I think Sisu was only interested when they could of bought acl and got the debt for cheap off the bank. Now any sale, as proved was with the full debt which I think put the club off, although the deal wasps did is still cheaper by far then building a new stadium.

The shares in acl didn't turn out to be worth the 30m stated in court though which is frustrating. £20m Including the mortgage and Sisu could of bought the lot if the council would of sold it to them

 

[skybluetony176]

I never said it was Sisu fault for the wasps deal. I do believe the council no matter what had gone on should of at least invited a bid if only to turn it down. As I could never see the council sell the ricoh to Sisu because of the history between the two.

I think Sisu was only interested when they could of bought acl and got the debt for cheap off the bank. Now any sale, as proved was with the full debt which I think put the club off, although the deal wasps did is still cheaper by far then building a new stadium.

The shares in acl didn't turn out to be worth the 30m stated in court though which is frustrating. £20m Including the mortgage and Sisu could of bought the lot if the council would of sold it to them

Sorry. I never meant it to sound like you had. I was generalising.

Just to point out. There is no evidence that SISU could have done the deal with the bank that they thought they could, if anything what come out in the JR shows it wouldn't have happened. So you could argue any interest that SISU was always a fairy tale.

 

[Godiva]

@ Godiva... Is this good enough for you? Coventry City FC History 7 Nov 2011 ... The club was founded in 1883 by Willie Stanley, an employee of cycle firm Singers. .... a deal was struck with SISU, a consortium led by former footballer Ray Ranson. ... his plans to make £20 million available to move the Football Club forward. .... "We will try and get several transfers completed by today. www.ccfc.co.uk/club/history/..........................Also Godiva, you were very quick to point out only 1 season for Keane before being sold for double money. Pity you have "Selective Blindness" when it comes to 3 others players off the top of my head...Dion Dublin bought £2m..Sold FOUR YEARS later for £5.75m......Darren Huckerby bought £1m..sold THREE years later £6m....Noel Whelan..bought £2m....sold FIVE years later for £2.2m.......That to me says good business...SISU have made regular Faux pas' by buying good players but letting them walk away for f**k all at end of their contracts...Bad business wouldn't you say?

The quote is fine, and as I said they did lose like £20m in the early years under Ranson/Hoffman/Elliott.

Now you say I suffer from selective blindness. Let's see about that.

First, you said:

At least previous owners took the stance of "If not enough talented players at the Club..Buy some" hence 34 years in the Top division. Some of you who slag off previous owners yet "Run off at the mouth about us not having players like Keane, Dublin, etc.

So you used Keane as an example on how previous owners prioritized talent over money.
Then I reminded you that Keane was only here for a season and sold with a huge profit. As Keane since leaving us had a brilliant career (except in Italy) he wasn't sold because he was no longer a talent. He was sold to bankroll the club.

That is not selective blindness - just demonstrating your example proved the opposite of what you wanted.

 

[Godiva]

The rent was £1.2M yet the debts were increasing at a rate of £7M? a year.
Management fees were well above that figure.

The main problem was not the rent !!

Management fee's again. This is the myth that will never ever die no matter how many times it's explained.
Ah never mind.

But - you do know that the rent was included in the management fee's?

 

[Astute]

Management fee's again. This is the myth that will never ever die no matter how many times it's explained.
Ah never mind.

But - you do know that the rent was included in the management fee's?

The management fees are not a myth. Our club has been so badly run that we don't make enough money to pay them so they are just rolled over into the astronomical debts we already have.

Or do you mean the rent for Northampton?

 

[Godiva]

Don't get me wrong, I would love SISU to be gone for a new owner who is amazing to come in and replace them. If this great new owner did a Wasps type thing of "come look at me, look at my plans, im going to do this" and pretty much was everything SISU aren't then who couldn't argue with that? I think there would be a very tiny amount of fans who would say "No I prefer SISU to this guy". I don't mean somebody to come and bullshit, but somebody who actually will come in and run us properly.

Surely if there was a great person waiting in the wings, if they were sort of "out in the open" as such then it would be a much better start as they are already doing what SISU didn't. Then pretty much all fans would want the same thing wouldn't they? To get this new guy in to run our club properly?

If this guy goes to the club and SISU act like the council did with us buying then I'd be just as outraged. (they probably would)

This is why I am of the opinion that people are giving it the spin about knowing people are there to take over to get people going. Plus the fact as soon as they are questioned they say "oh well thats not important now, just showing sisu we arent happy is the aim".

You suggest a potential owner believing in integrity, honesty and ethics.
If such a guy having the required money and interest in CCFC even exist then he would not go public. He would approach the club owners quietly. If he failed to agree a deal he would leave just as quietly.
We wouldn't know unless he struck a deal.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Godiva....Come on now Mr "Selective Blindness" Your point was to show how previous owners bought a player and sold him within a season to "Bankroll" the club. I showed you 3 players off the top of my head from the same era who were bought fairly cheaply and sold many years later at a fabulous profit.You tend to forget that Whelan was bought for £2m and was sold 5 years later making 250k profit. Huckerby cost us £1m and we sold him for 6x what we paid for him after 3 years. Dublin cost £2m and we sold him 4 years later for 3x what we paid for him. Excellent business. Compare that to SISU= Gunnarsson, Westwood etc, let walk away with f**k all to show for it. Whilst talking about management fees, don't forget the £1.8m pa interest as well

 

[Godiva]

The management fees are not a myth. Our club has been so badly run that we don't make enough money to pay them so they are just rolled over into the astronomical debts we already have.

Or do you mean the rent for Northampton?

Management fee's is cost distribution. It's from when the club had one bank account and three companies (SBS&L, ccfc h, CCfc l). All bills were paid from the on account and every year when the books were closed (some would say cooked) the cost was distributed to where it belonged. Rent was such a cost that was distributed to ccfc l (so ccfc l paid a management fee to SBS&L (or was it ccfc H? - ask OSB).
It goes back to 1995.
Management fee's was not money paid to the owners to manage the club.

(Haven't we had this discussion like 10 times before even with OSB's detailed explanation?).