Council admits Ricoh Arena was not sustainable without CCFC (12 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

Err no idea ! We'll never know either !

Your a clever lad, hazard a guess !!

 

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[italiahorse]

So by buying the loan with it not being a profitable enterprise at all put the money at risk?

Good point !!

 

[lordsummerisle]

What do you think would have happened if Wasps had not taken over the Ricoh ?
Do you believe with Wasps gone that Sisu would have purchased at the same price or do you think Sisu would drive the value down to zero ?

They could of course have let the club purchase the Ricoh before going to Sixfields, or Wasps getting involved, and got a better deal than they eventually got off Wasps, without losing any money in the interim.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

This is not meant to be a comparison between SISU and the council in levels of integrity or culpability. We all know that the hedge fund are ultimately responsible for the demise of the football club but what this does is give credence to those who think that the sale of the Ricoh elsewhere was done so in a rush and out of spite ! Ann Lucas and her cronies have stitched up local sports fans to satisfy her own lust for power and revenge !

Sorry. That's rubbish. What was she meant to do? Achieve the Average League One rent Fisher stated was the demand? Or the unfettered access to the freehold, which was what they eventually moved to? Or any of the shades of grey of their shifting position between?

The football club never, ever tried to negotiate candidly - as was found and told by successive judges. You can't sell, of the other party doesn't want to buy.

It astonishes me the double standards of many on here - on one hand acknowledging the almost comedic quality of Fisher's inability to tell the truth, see reality or tow a coherent line; whilst at the same time admonishing the council for not being able to cut a deal with this Willow The Wisp character

 

[lordsummerisle]

It astonishes me the double standards of many on here - on one hand acknowledging the almost comedic quality of Fisher's inability to tell the truth, see reality or tow a coherent line; whilst at the same time admonishing the council for not being able to cut a deal with this Willow The Wisp character

It astonishes me the double standards of many on here - on one hand acknowledging the almost comedic quality of Fishers inability to tell the truth, see reality or tow a coherent line, whilst at the same time praising the council for doing the same.

 

[Moff]

“We said that ACL was profitable without the football club, the accounts show different. I fully accept that. The actual reality of not having the football club there for that year meant ACL couldn’t wash its face.But we never had a problem with the company repaying its loan and they have never come to the council requesting more money. Would they have if we hadn’t sold the company to Wasps? Who knows.”

What's wrong with that statement? Name me one businessperson who's got every projection right. I wish SISU would evidence at least one percent of that honesty and contrition

Dress it up as you wish...she is still a lying piece of shit, and a fucking joke. CCFC a sports franchise what the hell is she on about?

I wouldnt imagine such defence if Fisher came out with a statement like that.

 

[italiahorse]

so much egg on italias face right now.

Really ? I would have done exactly the same in the councils position in the fight with Sisu for ownership of the Ricoh.

 

[Moff]

WOOP! WOOP! Wide on alert.

Of course you would say the same thing if Fisher lied like Lucas had...:facepalm:

 

[lordsummerisle]

Dress it up as you wish...she is still a lying piece of shit, and a fucking joke. CCFC a sports franchise what the hell is she on about?

I wouldnt imagine such defence if Fisher came out with a statement like that.

His ACL batphone has been flashing red, had to descend the firemans pole to start up his laptop for this emergency.

 

[covcity4life]

mary mungo midge is having a mare

mmmm

 

[Ashdown]

I never said anything about cutting a deal with the hedge fund number 1, just can't see why she bolted down the path of selling to hedge fund number 2 if it wasn't largely out of spite. Again I am not exonerating that prick Fisher and his lying cronies just stating that two wrongs don't make a right !

 

[italiahorse]

It astonishes me the double standards of many on here - on one hand acknowledging the almost comedic quality of Fishers inability to tell the truth, see reality or tow a coherent line, whilst at the same time praising the council for doing the same.

Nobody's praising the Council.
Just explaining the logic of what happened to people who are not really thinking straight whilst venting their anger at the situation.

 

[italiahorse]

I never said anything about cutting a deal with the hedge fund number 1, just can't see why she bolted down the path of selling to hedge fund number 2 if it wasn't largely out of spite. Again I am not exonerating that prick Fisher and his lying cronies just stating that two wrongs don't make a right !

.... because the Wasps would move on and the Ricoh would be at the mercy of Sisu for many years to come.
We don't really know where it would go but from experiencing Sisu we could make a good guess.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Dress it up as you wish...she is still a lying piece of shit, and a fucking joke. CCFC a sports franchise what the hell is she on about?

I wouldnt imagine such defence if Fisher came out with a statement like that.

Franchise bit I agree with you on. The accounts I can't. Okay, it lost £400K in one year - but had a strong balance sheet to sustain those losses.

Did she ever say 'ACL will make a profit in it's first year without the football club'? They cut a deal with Wasps; but other business opportunities could have been considered that would have turned that loss into a positive situation - and that could have been the basis for her comments. What I do know though is that she has admitted that hindsight made her comments as taken look wrong and has acknowledged that.

I still ask you - what should she have done faced with a negotiating partner who showed no desire to negotiate fairly or candidly?

 

[Ashdown]

.... because the Wasps would move on and the Ricoh would be at the mercy of Sisu for many years to come.
We don't really know where it would go but from experiencing Sisu we could make a good guess.

'At the mercy of SISU'.................That's conjecture, those buffoons were never going to do anything other than rent it. They'll be gone soon but fucking 'Wasps' will own the stadium built for Coventry City Football Club because Ann fuck face Lucas wanted to spit in their eye and dance in the limelight for a few sad months.

 

[Sick Boy]

... because we pay rates and they stopped Sisu getting the Ricoh for nothing.
... and Sisu business of getting public assets on the cheap is just wrong.

I understand why some CCFC fans are thinking if Sisu got it for nothing it could benefit CCFC, but rights right and wrongs wrong.

Yet it's ok for a London rugby club to get a public asset on the cheap?

 

[fernandopartridge]

“We said that ACL was profitable without the football club, the accounts show different. I fully accept that. The actual reality of not having the football club there for that year meant ACL couldn’t wash its face.But we never had a problem with the company repaying its loan and they have never come to the council requesting more money. Would they have if we hadn’t sold the company to Wasps? Who knows.”

What's wrong with that statement? Name me one businessperson who's got every projection right. I wish SISU would evidence at least one percent of that honesty and contrition

Lets be fair the projection came from Weber Shandwick

 

[SimonGilbert]

Yet it's ok for a London rugby club to get a public asset on the cheap?

Devil's advocate -

Was £5.54million for a company which had just lost £400k "on the cheap"? Also worth noting, the council still retains the freehold.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong to sell to Wasps by the way. There are clearly many arguments for and against.

 

[Sick Boy]

Devil's advocate -

Was £5.54million for a company which had just lost £400k "on the cheap"? Also worth noting, the council still retains the freehold.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong to sell to Wasps by the way. There are clearly many arguments for and against.

I'm sure that CCC and that hag Lucas know full well that CCFC would have snapped their hands off for the chance to purchase it for £5.54M.

 

[Paxman II]

I still maintain the Ricoh is unsustainable without the football ball club in situ. WASP will have their work cut out to prove me wrong. If the council had any brain cells between them they would have realised this. WASP have a honeymoon period but I fear for the long term outlook. A 250 year lease is the only comfort for WASP as I see it.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Lets be fair the projection came from Weber Shandwick

No, I'm saying you can't always accuractely predict business.

Let me give you an example. I remember clearly stating - it's on here if you'd care to check back - what happens is SISU's negotiating stance backfires? They were using the football club as a chip on a routelle table that we couldn't afford to lose. What happens if the Arena finds another tenant? Do you remember? I even mentioned a rugby club (I actually mentioned Northampton, so I was wrong on the club, but almost bang-on with the scenario).

What did I get in return? Scoffed at. 'We're the only show in town' from a prominent and verbose poster. Danced around by his usual 'likers'.

Well, he was wrong. Did he lie? He projected something that was wrong. Lucas did the same, and she's a liar. Why aren't there more people judged liars on here if we're holding retrospective judgements like these?

 

[singers_pore]

Is this 400K loss before or after non-recurring charges. Often when people talk about "profitability" they are excluding non-recurring charges such as the costs of defending a lawsuit. Does anyone on here have a copy of the ACL accounts that they can share?

 

[Neutral Fan]

Lucas: ''the Ricoh was always built for sports franchises''.

There you are boys...some folk gave me stick for referring to CCFC as being ''franchised'' in Northampton. But your own council leader thinks of you (and Wasps) as just some franchise.

What's worse is that SISU clearly do too. And no doubt wouldn't hesitate to franchise you elsewhere (maybe as a feeder club?) if they could see it as a way to recoup their losses.

Clubs without their own stadium who aren't fan owned are increasingly just regarded as a ''franchise'' by their owners these days. Why don't CCFC fans see if they can buy the club off SISU?

 

[mrbluesky87]

Devil's advocate -

Was £5.54million for a company which had just lost £400k "on the cheap"? Also worth noting, the council still retains the freehold.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong to sell to Wasps by the way. There are clearly many arguments for and against.

Agree and I still think there is more to the Wasps deal than meets the eye. I just want to add I dont defend the council for its part but trying to look forward rather than back as nothing will change.

It still amazes me how quick this deal was done with Wasps, what was in it for both parties? Strange to move a sports club from London to Coventry (on a PERMANENT basis) regardless of circumstance.

 

[Nick]

I ain't in denial. Did anyone really believe it when it was said?

I just don't see the point in getting a wide on over. It changes nothing for the club.

Yes, quite a lot of people believed it.

 

[chiefdave]

.. or a skilled negotiator able to play a bad hand and win ?

Can't agree with that. This is a council we're talking about and they have now admitted repeatedly lying to the taxpayers of Coventry. Some people seem to be so against SISU they will let CCC get away with anything. There should be uproar at this. Look at the hammering Fisher got for suggesting ACL were reliant on us playing there, seems he was absolutely right.

What's wrong with that statement? Name me one businessperson who's got every projection right. I wish SISU would evidence at least one percent of that honesty and contrition

Except they said it over and over again when it wasn't a projection. It was an outright lie plain and simple.

... because we pay rates and they stopped Sisu getting the Ricoh for nothing.
... and Sisu business of getting public assets on the cheap is just wrong.

Except by admitting the lie that all changes. We don't know SISU wanted the Ricoh for nothing, their argument was that it was being overvalued and CCFC were propping up a failing ACL. They were absolutely right about that. If CCC had actually been truthful then maybe there could have been a meaningful dialogue between the two and who knows, we might now be owners of the Ricoh instead of Wasps. As much blame as can be placed with SISU, and there's a lot, how can they negotiate with the council when they council are committed to a stance based off a lie?

What do you think would have happened if Wasps had not taken over the Ricoh ?
Do you believe with Wasps gone that Sisu would have purchased at the same price or do you think Sisu would drive the value down to zero ?

One of two things would be likely, either ACL would go into administration leading to SISU, and anyone else who was interested, being able to bid to purchase the lease which I would assume would have reverted back to CCC. The other option would be CCC would have to stop lying and invite SISU to negotiate based on the genuine state of ACL.

I still ask you - what should she have done faced with a negotiating partner who showed no desire to negotiate fairly or candidly?

I don't know, what do you think Joy should have done faced with negotiating with CCC who showed no desire to negotiate fairly or candidly?

And we're not a franchise, someone needs to pull her up on that.

 

[singers_pore]

I still maintain the Ricoh is unsustainable without the football ball club in situ. WASP will have their work cut out to prove me wrong. If the council had any brain cells between them they would have realised this. WASP have a honeymoon period but I fear for the long term outlook. A 250 year lease is the only comfort for WASP as I see it.

i agree. It looks like the council have played a blinder, stuffing up two hedge funds at the same time. And to think that all the right wing mongs on were predicting that SISU would run rings around the council because hedge funds are supposed experts while councils are stupid. I guess it goes to show that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

 

[Sick Boy]

Lucas: ''the Ricoh was always built for sports franchises''.

There you are boys...some folk gave me stick for referring to CCFC as being ''franchised'' in Northampton. But your own council leader thinks of you (and Wasps) as just some franchise.

What's worse is that SISU clearly do too. And no doubt wouldn't hesitate to franchise you elsewhere (maybe as a feeder club?) if they could see it as a way to recoup their losses.

Clubs without their own stadium who aren't fan owned are increasingly just regarded as a ''franchise'' by their owners these days. Why don't CCFC fans see if they can buy the club off SISU?

Sadly a lot of fans on here now seem to believe that franchising is ok as long as it's good for business. I doubt the majority would complain if we moved to Northampton again now. Sad times.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

“We said that ACL was profitable without the football club, the accounts show different. I fully accept that. The actual reality of not having the football club there for that year meant ACL couldn’t wash its face.But we never had a problem with the company repaying its loan and they have never come to the council requesting more money. Would they have if we hadn’t sold the company to Wasps? Who knows.”

What's wrong with that statement? Name me one businessperson who's got every projection right. I wish SISU would evidence at least one percent of that honesty and contrition

Nothing to do with prediction or projections, it was clearly a lie as a negotiation tool in there battle with SISU.

Maybe it was an understandable stance to take in there situation, but lets not try and cover it up. A lie is a lie and its desperate to claim it was anything else.

 

[Nick]

Does that mean sisu lying about a new stadium as part of negotiations and playing the poker game is ok?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I don't know, what do you think Joy should have done faced with negotiating with CCC who showed no desire to negotiate fairly or candidly?

Rubbish. Like the reduced rent offer when Fisher was after an 'Average League One rent'; only to find our they wanted unfettered freehold access? Or in negotiations with Higgs when SISU were judged in the High Court to have 'no appetite' for a deal.

They wanted to distress ACL into the ground - as found by successive judges. Don't even try and pretend anything other than that was the case. And in so doing, they miscalculated the situation and ruined our football club in so doing. All events thereafter start when they began the rent-strike, and successive reactions when they didn't know when to stop turning the screw

 

[Moff]

Let me give you an example. I remember clearly stating - it's on here if you'd care to check back - what happens is SISU's negotiating stance backfires? They were using the football club as a chip on a routelle table that we couldn't afford to lose. What happens if the Arena finds another tenant? Do you remember? I even mentioned a rugby club (I actually mentioned Northampton, so I was wrong on the club, but almost bang-on with the scenario).

What did I get in return? Scoffed at. 'We're the only show in town' from a prominent and verbose poster. Danced around by his usual 'likers'.

Well, he was wrong. Did he lie? He projected something that was wrong. Lucas did the same, and she's a liar. Why aren't there more people judged liars on here if we're holding retrospective judgements like these?

I think you are suffering from some helpful selective memory.

Many people such as myself, who as you know is Saints fan, rubbished the idea of a local Rugby club such as the Tigers or Saints moving to the Ricoh, as they have healthy local fan bases so why leave them, and both have excellent homes, of which the Saints are planning to develope theirs.

What we couldnt see was the Council hypocritically tempting an essentially London Rugby club from its home, and fans, whilst berating a football club for doing the same, and proudly stating the Club should play in its home City. How convenient for them to miss this fact!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Nothing to do with prediction or projections, it was clearly a lie as a negotiation tool in there battle with SISU.

Maybe it was an understandable stance to take in there situation, but lets not try and cover it up. A lie is a lie and its desperate to claim it was anything else.

Okay - answer the point I asked above. When Grendel said there would be no other sporting club who would take the Arena and that SISU were the only 'show in town' - was that a lie? His was a projection that's turned out wrong. CCC took a view that didn't turn out accurate in that given year. Why is one judgement a lie, and the other not?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I think you are suffering from some helpful selective memory.

Many people such as myself, who as you know is Saints fan, rubbished the idea of a local Rugby club such as the Tigers or Saints moving to the Ricoh, as they have healthy local fan bases so why leave them, and both have excellent homes, of which the Saints are planning to develope theirs.

What we couldnt see was the Council hypocritically tempting an essentially London Rugby club from its home, and fans, whilst berating a football club for doing the same, and proudly stating the Club should play in its home City. How convenient for them to miss this fact!

In fairness that's a question of morality - which previously I've told you I agree with you on.

However, in discussing profitability, that's another issue; and not what this thread is about

 

[Sick Boy]

Why are some so desperate to defend the council?

Their double standards and hypocrisy seems to know no bounds either.