SCG Minutes from 5th March meeting (47 Viewers)

skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
"TF was concerned that the Trust’s continued use of Freedom of Information enquiries indicated that they did not understand the use of an FOI versus the privacy of commercial-in-confidence discussions." I didn't really understand this. TF seems to be implying that there have been discussions with RBC, but because they were 'commercial in confidence' they didn't have to be mentioned in the answer to the FOI request. I find this very strange, because there was no request to reveal the contents of any discussions, just asking if there had been any. Someone, it seems is not being truthful.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
my understanding is that if there are commercial reasons for not giving the information then the authority has to say that - they do not have to give reasons or any confirmation of any meetings or not - but they can not simply ignore any part of the request
 

Nick

Administrator
"TF was concerned that the Trust’s continued use of Freedom of Information enquiries indicated that they did not understand the use of an FOI versus the privacy of commercial-in-confidence discussions." I didn't really understand this. TF seems to be implying that there have been discussions with RBC, but because they were 'commercial in confidence' they didn't have to be mentioned in the answer to the FOI request. I find this very strange, because there was no request to reveal the contents of any discussions, just asking if there had been any. Someone, it seems is not being truthful.

Be interesting to know what that CBRE statement said.
 

Monners

Well-Known Member
my understanding is that if there are commercial reasons for not giving the information then the authority has to say that - they do not have to give reasons or any confirmation of any meetings or not - but they can not simply ignore any part of the request

That is correct - they (a public body like an LA) cannot deny that any contact has been made. They are stating that this is the case I believe, so.... well draw your own conclusions.

Why aren't the SCG asking for clartiy from TF on this?
 
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oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
this is taken from the government website regarding FOI's

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/the-freedom-of-information-act


4. If your request is turned down
Some sensitive information isn’t available to members of the public. If this applies, an organisation must tell you why they can’t give you some or all of the information you requested.They might ask you to be more specific so they can provide just the information you need.
An organisation can also refuse your Freedom of Information (FOI) request if it will cost more than £450 (£600 for central government) to find and extract the information.
Reviews and complaints
If an organisation doesn’t provide you with the information you requested, you should first ask them to review their decision.
You can then complain to the Information Commissioner’s Office if you’re still not satisfied.



In this case RBC has not refused to answer, indeed they have been quite clear in their answer. Perhaps it is TF who doesnt understand FOI's then?
 
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oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
This bit I find curious

TF reiterated no interest, dividends, nor management fees, taken out of the Club by owner-investor

and

Reiterating that Sisu had taken no funds out of the Club, TF asked JM why he had written, representing Sky Blue Trust, in a recent column in the Coventry Telegraph that Sisu were taking £1million per year in interest charges out of the club, stating that this was obviously incorrect and misleading. TF expressed his disappointment that SBT chose to mislead supporters with obviously incorrect information

Definition of payment 1.
the action or process of paying someone or something or of being paid.

synonyms: remittance, remission, settlement, discharge, clearance, liquidation



You see the 2014 accounts and 2013 accounts both list substantial interest charges 2.66m and 1.81m respectively. nearly all payable re "other loans". Of course those "other loans" are all from SISU investors and ARVO

The 2013 accounts showed that the amount of interest accrued but not paid was 2.018m yet the 2014 accounts show that 2.051m was outstanding 31/05/14.

There is no actual movement of cash per the cashflow statements to 31/05/14 showing interest actually paid out. Hardly surprising as the club didn't have sufficient cash flow to pay it out. So you might expect that the interest owed at 31/05/13 2.018m would have 2.66m charged in the 2014 accounts added to it and there would be a liability carried forward of 4.678m in respect of interest due. Except from the accounts we know only 2.051m was carried forward

The interest was of course due to the SISU investor loans but mainly to ARVO. Again the details are in the accounts. SISU acts as agent for the investors with absolute discretion over all matters and Seppala & Coleman (the directors of SISU Capital) seem to control ARVO because they both sign such things as court documents for ARVO. In deed they have been involved with both SISU Capital Ltd and ARVO Master Fund since at least 1998. Technically you can argue ARVO & SISU are separate but are they not under common control by the same two people?

It looks to me like the interest fell due and was settled by ARVO accepting preference shares in settlement. (otherwise known as payment?) Or put another way a chunk of the interest was paid but not in cash. Are Seppala or Coleman beneficiaries under ARVO Master Fund - no idea but they do seem to have some control of that fund

Whilst TF is technically correct, it is really just clever use of words. He knows it but no one pressed him on it ....... or are they more intent on Trust bashing. Yes it would seem that SISU have not taken anything out but cant help feeling the words are being chosen very carefully

- what happens to the interest that was carried forward 31/05/14? what about the interest accruing since that date? Will ARVO keep accepting shares in settlement? Is this all just storing up problems for the future? Why did the SISU investors not charge interest before 2012 what changed and why? If those preference shares are worthless (we have been told) why accept more in settlement of further interest charges? If the shares are worthless and there is no prospect of recovering either the interest or the preference shares why create either in the first place? How are these transactions reported to SISU or ARVO investors? Do SISU Capital earn their fees as a percentage of accrued income or valuation movements?:thinking about:

All a little misleading isn't it and far from clear what has been done with our clubs finances :whistle:
 
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skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
As the SCG exists for our benefit :)sarcasm:) perhaps you should get someone on the SCG to ask these questions, OSB. I'm sure TF would show you the error of your ways. :p
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
Our Les has done a story about it. Someone might like to post the link. I would do it, but it upsets some people.
 

Noggin

New Member
Our Les has done a story about it. Someone might like to post the link. I would do it, but it upsets some people.

Wow it's hilarious, he's a complete sisu puppet these days. He's more biased that the worst members of the SCG. Looks like Jan and Steve have been set up a treat.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
so let me get this straight

Mr Ward told the Coventry Observer: "As chair of the SCG, whoever owns Coventry City Football Club, this is time for fans to rally behing the team and the football club and for giving undivided support. Unfortunately, there are too many who are too confrontational and want to cause trouble and disruption."

Other SCG members share that view
.

So a group of people who regularly spend half their meetings berating the Trust Board rather than addressing their main purpose, who regularly bring up items to attack the trust Board now accuse the Trust of creating disunity because they dare to question and challenge the owners? And it is worthy of a lengthy newspaper article ..... really ..... I mean really???

As far as I can recall the Trust have never said all city fans should not support the team? Quite the opposite in fact. But the implication of the article and Mr Ward is that the Trust do not support the team and are creating confrontation just for the sake of it.

So supporting the team and questioning the owners or making requests of them is mutually exclusive is it? Cant do both? Grow up

I think it is curious that the owners are the club when it suits them (ie in this) and at other times they are quite separate when it suits them (ie the legal actions). No wonder everyone is confused and few (with notable exceptions) do not trust a word that comes out of the Board room or the owners.

But as usual don't look at us look at these other nasty characters isn't it........ Comes over as bit of a witch hunt if I am honest. There seems to be an agenda to this I feel

I find it difficult to believe, even mildly amusing, that the SCG and the owners/directors are so worried by the Trust. Why? or is it simply that none of them are comfortable being challenged on the basics and on what really matters? So much for connection and transparency of word and deed then .....
 
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olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to find out if the fans represented by the SCG actually agree with them on their views ? Are any of them trust members?
 

SimonGilbert

Telegraph Tea Boy
"TF was concerned that the Trust’s continued use of Freedom of Information enquiries indicated that they did not understand the use of an FOI versus the privacy of commercial-in-confidence discussions."

This line keeps being used to explain the FOI responses, but let's be clear:

An organisation can refuse to answer questions in an FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality - but they have to be clear that they are refusing to answer on that basis. They cannot deliberately mislead, if they do there could be legal repercussions.

None of the organisations contacted by The Telegraph, or the Trust, have refused to answer on the basis of commercial confidentiality. They have all explicitly denied having discussions, meetings or correspondence with anyone over a large sports stadium.

That's very different from not answering or partly answering.

Hopefully everyone now understands.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
Did I read that right?

The SCG will go to the next fans forum and meet the fans they claim to represent!

I would expect that to be a very interesting night.

Maybe they should have met the fans and asked their opinions before they start coming out with all the rubbish they do, down with the SCG!
 

Nick

Administrator
To be fair, you only have to read posts on here and Twitter of people from the Trust to see how Anti SISU, along with the loaded questionnaires. I don't really see the point in that article though.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I also think it is pretty poor the chair of a fans group commenting about fellow group members in the press in an obviously negative manner.

The minutes I take it were not word for word and are therefore incomplete, inaccurate and open to interpretation. Who has final say on content?
 

skyblueinBaku

Well-Known Member
"TF was concerned that the Trust’s continued use of Freedom of Information enquiries indicated that they did not understand the use of an FOI versus the privacy of commercial-in-confidence discussions."

This line keeps being used to explain the FOI responses, but let's be clear:

An organisation can refuse to answer questions in an FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality - but they have to be clear that they are refusing to answer on that basis. They cannot deliberately mislead, if they do there could be legal repercussions.

None of the organisations contacted by The Telegraph, or the Trust, have refused to answer on the basis of commercial confidentiality. They have all explicitly denied having discussions, meetings or correspondence with anyone over a large sports stadium.

That's very different from not answering or partly answering.

Hopefully everyone now understands.

Simon, I'm sure that everyone on this forum understands that. It seems that only Mr Fisher doesn't.
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
"TF was concerned that the Trust’s continued use of Freedom of Information enquiries indicated that they did not understand the use of an FOI versus the privacy of commercial-in-confidence discussions."

This line keeps being used to explain the FOI responses, but let's be clear:

An organisation can refuse to answer questions in an FOI request on the basis of commercial confidentiality - but they have to be clear that they are refusing to answer on that basis. They cannot deliberately mislead, if they do there could be legal repercussions.

None of the organisations contacted by The Telegraph, or the Trust, have refused to answer on the basis of commercial confidentiality. They have all explicitly denied having discussions, meetings or correspondence with anyone over a large sports stadium.

That's very different from not answering or partly answering.

Hopefully everyone now understands.

Everyone but Mr Fisher understands this it seems.

Any chance of a comment from RBC on this?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
To be fair, you only have to read posts on here and Twitter of people from the Trust to see how Anti SISU, along with the loaded questionnaires. I don't really see the point in that article though.

Does that make them anti CCFC though Nick? The bare essentials of this is supporting the team on the pitch isn't it and as far as I can see the Trust , its Board and its members have always been 100% behind that
 

Nick

Administrator
Does that make them anti CCFC though Nick? The bare essentials of this is supporting the team on the pitch isn't it and as far as I can see the Trust , its Board and its members have always been 100% behind that

Nope not anti CCFC and I have said many times that some of the main trust people still go home and away every week and you could never question their status as a city fan or say anything else.

The only issue with the amount of hatred of being anti sisu is being able to deal with the club putting that hatred to the site and although you may think they are massive wankers, just keep it to yourself rather than go and speak to them and then come away calling them wankers as much as possible and moaning that they won't deal with you. (if that makes sense?)

that isn't saying I think the trust should "cosy" up to anybody and be "yes men".
 

Noggin

New Member
To be fair, you only have to read posts on here and Twitter of people from the Trust to see how Anti SISU, along with the loaded questionnaires. I don't really see the point in that article though.

If you arn't anti sisu you arn't informed or you arn't reasonable.

I don't understand the assertion that the questionairre was loaded, it was a perfectly reasonable question with a neither option available.

This is a leading question.

having nearly destroyed the club should Sisu
a) sell up
b) sack the board

This is not a loaded or leading question
Should the trust
a) call on sisu to sell up
b) sack the board
c) neither.
 

DazzleTommyDazzle

Well-Known Member
Nope not anti CCFC and I have said many times that some of the main trust people still go home and away every week and you could never question their status as a city fan or say anything else.

The only issue with the amount of hatred of being anti sisu is being able to deal with the club putting that hatred to the site and although you may think they are massive wankers, just keep it to yourself rather than go and speak to them and then come away calling them wankers as much as possible and moaning that they won't deal with you. (if that makes sense?)

that isn't saying I think the trust should "cosy" up to anybody and be "yes men".

Interesting choice of words, "hatred".

Is it not possible to distrust SISU and believe they have been bad for the club without "hating" them?

"Hatred" suggests (to me at least, I've not checked the OED) something emotional rather than intellectual.

Also having (briefly, once) met Jan, I don't think he's the type of person who would call anyone a "wanker".
 

SkyBlueSid

Well-Known Member
this is taken from the government website regarding FOI's

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/the-freedom-of-information-act


4. If your request is turned down
Some sensitive information isn’t available to members of the public. If this applies, an organisation must tell you why they can’t give you some or all of the information you requested.They might ask you to be more specific so they can provide just the information you need.
An organisation can also refuse your Freedom of Information (FOI) request if it will cost more than £450 (£600 for central government) to find and extract the information.
Reviews and complaints
If an organisation doesn’t provide you with the information you requested, you should first ask them to review their decision.
You can then complain to the Information Commissioner’s Office if you’re still not satisfied.



In this case RBC has not refused to answer, indeed they have been quite clear in their answer. Perhaps it is TF who doesnt understand FOI's then?

If the SCG were fit for purpose and wished to be of any use at all, they would be taking Fisher to task on his obvious lie here. They won't, of course, because the chairman of the group is a puppet.

Given Ward's comments, I would suggest that the first item on the agenda for the next meeting should be a vote of no confidence in the chairman. He is a joke.
 

Nick

Administrator
Interesting choice of words, "hatred".

Is it not possible to distrust SISU and believe they have been bad for the club without "hating" them?

"Hatred" suggests (to me at least, I've not checked the OED) something emotional rather than intellectual.

Also having (briefly, once) met Jan, I don't think he's the type of person who would call anyone a "wanker".


Of course, there is a difference between not trusting and hatred. I think it is a fair assumption to say that a lot of people do hate SISU (not that I am saying they shouldn't or it is a wrong) and are emotional and I think the trust fellas would quite happily admit to that off camera.

The wanker part was just an example. Some things are done and said blatantly to beat others with aren't they?
 
The whole tone of the meeting and this article is of an unrepresentative an unelected few seeking to discredit two SCG members who are (or in Jan's case were) properly elected and accountable - only a few others share that distinction. Peter Ward and Jonathan Strange (Chair & Vice-Chair) definitely don't.
In doing so they thereby help TF / Sisu distract from the difficult questions:
Why is there no progress on the new stadium?
What progress (if any) has there been on the 5 point plan?
If no interest has been "taken" by the owner-investor, why does the interest charged in the 2014 accounts not reflect in an increased liability? (See #45 above)
Why is our great club staring over the cliff-edge of relegation? The ultimate measure of Sisu's failed stewardship.
 

Nick

Administrator
If you arn't anti sisu you arn't informed or you arn't reasonable.

I don't understand the assertion that the questionairre was loaded, it was a perfectly reasonable question with a neither option available.

This is a leading question.

having nearly destroyed the club should Sisu
a) sell up
b) sack the board

This is not a loaded or leading question
Should the trust
a) call on sisu to sell up
b) sack the board
c) neither.

What about styling, fonts. ie option 1 and 2 are huge and in bold and neither is hidden away at the bottom. You can tell in the text above the questions the way it is trying to make you go.

Like I said, nothing wrong if people hate them. It could cause issues when running a fans group being so open about it when it comes to communications though and the article is a non story really. Tit for that.

It just seems to be SCG and Observer vs Trust and Telegraph.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I think it's fairly obvious that the trust might be close to unravelling something here from the reaction it's prompted.

I say to the trust keep doing what you're doing. Put in another round of FOI's, write to all of Rugby's elected councillors for clarification and confirmation that the FOI's are correct and accurate and if they have anything to add, write to Rugby MP Mark Pawsey asking the same.

Something about this has our Timmy rattled. Strike while the iron is hot.
 

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