Oscar Gobern (30 Viewers)

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phildownunder

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
d

Don't really want to get involved in this thread, which is now getting a tad tirseome, but how do you know that Milner didn't 'devote every spare hour of his time fulfilling his lifetime ambition?'
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Not to mention Oscar Gobern :thinking about:
 
mrtrench

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Did Jesus spend every moment practising? If so, I reckon he was always the goalie.
 
skybluegod

skybluegod

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
d

Don't really want to get involved in this thread, which is now getting a tad tirseome, but how do you know that Milner didn't 'devote every spare hour of his time fulfilling his lifetime ambition?'
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as I said it also depends on circumstance, Milner grew up in a much more stable environment compared to Ozil, and had a different path into football.
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
skybluegod said:
Funny how you mention mesut Ozil, as he is actually a player I have studied in depth, look up his history, look at where he was brought up, Gelsenkirchen, as I said it is a matter of circumstance and practice. If You look up his history, literally during all his free time he was practicing/ playing football, In streets or in what has come to be known as the 'monkey cage'. His first coach said and I quote 'he would devote every spare hour to fulfilling his life ambition.' There is a reason he is a class above and that's because of his circumstance. He has such good ball control is because of the fact he had to play football in such confined areas.
So yes he did outwork Milner.
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You talk utter shit.
 
mrtrench

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Samo said:
You talk utter shit.
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I think that is very harsh. I believe the guy has studied the topic and he does have a point that many people assume that high performance is only for the gifted - whereas in reality many people have the capacity to become very good at anything they choose. I wouldn't go as far as Mr. God as I believe that genetics also play a big part in any subject including football. When I was a teacher I had several pupils who worked their socks off and only ever became mediocre at my subject (they just didn't have the capacity to grasp the harder concepts) & the top set had its fair share of less industrious but naturally intelligent pupils who found my subject easy. I still believe in all of nature, nurture and practice. But the guy isn't talking utter shit.
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
mrtrench said:
I think that is very harsh. I believe the guy has studied the topic and he does have a point that many people assume that high performance is only for the gifted - whereas in reality many people have the capacity to become very good at anything they choose. I wouldn't go as far as Mr. God as I believe that genetics also play a big part in any subject including football. When I was a teacher I had several pupils who worked their socks off and only ever became mediocre at my subject (they just didn't have the capacity to grasp the harder concepts) & the top set had its fair share of less industrious but naturally intelligent pupils who found my subject easy. I still believe in all of nature, nurture and practice. But the guy isn't talking utter shit.
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What the guy is essentially saying is that if you had replaced Lionel Messi at birth with any individual with identical physical composition he would have become the best footballer in the world. It's hogwash. It's like suggesting that anyone with identical life experience, hand to eye coordination and, well... brushes as da Vinci could have painted the Mona Lisa! He leaves no room whatsoever for nature and it is quite absurd.
 
skybluegod

skybluegod

Well-Known Member
Samo said:
What the guy is essentially saying is that if you had replaced Lionel Messi at birth with any individual with identical physical composition he would have become the best footballer in the world. It's hogwash. It's like suggesting that anyone with identical life experience, hand to eye coordination and, well... brushes as da Vinci could have painted the Mona Lisa! He leaves no room whatsoever for nature and it is quite absurd.
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No that's not what I am essentially saying. I have said that personality, circumstance and mental strength all contribute, but they aren't what make people great at their sport/profession.
 
skybluegod

skybluegod

Well-Known Member
mrtrench said:
I think that is very harsh. I believe the guy has studied the topic and he does have a point that many people assume that high performance is only for the gifted - whereas in reality many people have the capacity to become very good at anything they choose. I wouldn't go as far as Mr. God as I believe that genetics also play a big part in any subject including football. When I was a teacher I had several pupils who worked their socks off and only ever became mediocre at my subject (they just didn't have the capacity to grasp the harder concepts) & the top set had its fair share of less industrious but naturally intelligent pupils who found my subject easy. I still believe in all of nature, nurture and practice. But the guy isn't talking utter shit.
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thank you, and I do see that point of view and I have a lot of respect for it. But Imo even in subjects at school, if somebody really wanted it, no matter how hard it was they could become a top student but it may take a lot longer.

Maybe I have suggested that practice is all you need but, obviously psychomotor and gross motor abilities which people are born with do have some impact. And that's probably what makes the top top performers so good, as they have that extra 5% or whatever. But what I am saying is that footballers aren't where they are because of genetics it is because they practice so hard and so much. So that's why I am of the opinion it is down to practice and circumstance.
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
skybluegod said:
No that's not what I am essentially saying. I have said that personality, circumstance and mental strength all contribute, but they aren't what make people great at their sport/profession.
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No it's just practice right? As I say... Hogwash.
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
skybluegod said:
thank you, and I do see that point of view and I have a lot of respect for it. But Imo even in subjects at school, if somebody really wanted it, no matter how hard it was they could become a top student but it may take a lot longer.

Maybe I have suggested that practice is all you need but, obviously psychomotor and gross motor abilities which people are born with do have some impact. And that's probably what makes the top top performers so good, as they have that extra 5% or whatever. But what I am saying is that footballers aren't where they are because of genetics it is because they practice so hard and so much. So that's why I am of the opinion it is down to practice and circumstance.
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Good luck responding to this one Trench. :whistle:
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
mrtrench said:
We'll just have to agree to differ on that one - from my experience it just simply isn't true.
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By any measure it simply isn't true. I think what we are dealing with here is an idealist and idealism, sweet as it is, can fly in the face of the facts.
 
skybluegod

skybluegod

Well-Known Member
mrtrench said:
We'll just have to agree to differ on that one - from my experience it just simply isn't true.
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Fair enough, and I respect your point of view and you perhaps being a teacher have seen things I haven't.
But I can personally say that one of my best mates, who was not the most intelligent naturally, although my no stretch stupid, he did nothing but work, school, athletics, revision till 11PM. He ended up with straight a*'s. He doesn't get things easily like some other people, but the work he did to understand, took him to the level above.
 
SkyBlue_Bear83

SkyBlue_Bear83

Well-Known Member
skybluegod said:
Fair enough, and I respect your point of view and you perhaps being a teacher have seen things I haven't.
But I can personally say that one of my best mates, who was not the most intelligent naturally, although my no stretch stupid, he did nothing but work, school, athletics, revision till 11PM. He ended up with straight a*'s. He doesn't get things easily like some other people, but the work he did to understand, took him to the level above.
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No ones saying that practice and hard work doesn't make you better, although he obviously had some natural abilities and aptitude for the subject just not as much as maybe others. Maybe he was naturally a B student and hard work took him up to A*. If he was a naturally a D student there is no way he is getting an A* though hardwork.

I know people similar as you described, people who put in massive amounts of effort to achieve A*, which without the hard work they certainly wouldn't have achieved. I also know people who put in massive amounts of hard work and came out with a B grade which for them was an achievement. I also know people who probably put in a 1/3 of the effort of both of these people and also came out with A*.


I'll put this question to you, a person studies Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics and Biology. He is generally quite a clever person and puts in equal amounts of hard work into all 4 subjects and all circumstances are kept on a level field, why does he then gets different grades in all 4 subjects? I'd suggest he has a natural aptitude and ability for the subjects he done best in but you seem to believe under this scenario he would achieve the same grade in all 4 subjects.
 
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skybluegod

skybluegod

Well-Known Member
CCFC said:
No ones saying that practice and hard work doesn't make you better, although he obviously had some natural abilities and aptitude for the subject just not as much as maybe others. Maybe he was naturally a B student and hard work took him up to A*. If he was a naturally a D student there is no way he is getting an A* though hardwork.

I know people similar as you described, people who put in massive amounts of effort to achieve A*, which without the hard work they certainly wouldn't have achieved. I also know people who put in massive amounts of hard work and came out with a B grade which for them was an achievement. I also know people who probably put in a 1/3 of the effort of both of these people and also came out with A*.


I'll put this question to you, a person studies Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics and Biology. He is generally quite a clever person and puts in equal amounts of hard work into all 4 subjects and all circumstances are kept on a level field, why does he then gets different grades in all 4 subjects? I'd suggest he has a natural aptitude and ability for the subjects he done best in but you seem to believe under this scenario he would achieve the same grade in all 4 subjects.
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Difficulty of subjects all vary don't they?
Although a good question indeed. However I would again suggest that work from a young age in some of those subjects is what he will excel in. again drawing on personal experience. A lot of my friends at senior school came from the same primary school. That school did a lot of work on maths, and all 4 of those students were in top set maths.
I would suggest that if someone from a young age did put in the same amount of effort into all 4 subjects they would get the same grade in all 4 yes.
However I would also suggest that school is a lot different from sport, as it can depend on the level of teaching etc?
however good points and difficult to answer and would love to see an experiment on it.
 
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simonregis

New Member
Do you think a website could influence a manager? Maybe TM never heard of him. CT pick up talk on a website and ask the manager. Manager says no but after conversation checks the player out and likes him and makes a bid, could it happen?
 
Samo

Samo

Well-Known Member
simonregis said:
Do you think a website could influence a manager? Maybe TM never heard of him. CT pick up talk on a website and ask the manager. Manager says no but after conversation checks the player out and likes him and makes a bid, could it happen?
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If he's never heard of the player he has no business being in the job!
 
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