Tory Monopoly (12 Viewers)

Grendel

Well-Known Member
At first I never really considered it a possibility and dismissed it as a bit of mischief from the conservative press.

However, there now seems a real possibility that Jeremy Corbyn may actually win the Labour leadership election. This, if happens, will be the ultimate suicide note

Somewhat ironic, 70 years on from the great Atlee government, we now have a real possibility that this strange Michael Foot tribute act may actually become leader of the opposition. Ban the bomb, nationalise everything that moves, super tax the rich, spend spend spend on the welfare state. Welcome to the mad world of Corbyn.

To be fair the challengers are a pretty bland bunch. Burnham looks like all he wants is a photo shoot opportunity and Cooper has less charisma than a paper bag. Liz Kendall seems to know what the part needs but is subject to vile abuse from the left wingers who see their chance to play socialist revolutionaries for a day.

If this nightmare scenario unfolds the Tories will be the true winners. Labour may never recover from the inevitable election wipe out and with the Liberals all but dead thanks to the odious Clegg then a virtual one party state beckons.

Cameron will stand down and the spectre of a true right wing party looms large with the distinctly unpleasant Johnson waiting in the wings.

These really are worrying times for democracy. Back to the eighties? The eighties throwback Corbyn may get his wish.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Makes no odds to me to be honest. I'd never vote labour based on their record. Have they ever left the country in a better state than they found it? Certainly not in my lifetime. It seems to me that they should have finished on a high and disbanded once the NHS was formed. I really struggle to think of another positive long lasting contribution they've made to the country.

The unions will be loving it if this guy wins so at least someone will be happy.
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
I don't vote Labour these days, I may have done so in the dim & distant, but I've seen enough!

Frankly they've been on suicide watch since Blair devolved Scotland & Brown took over and continued his many gaffes.

I agree the country needs a balancing political force to rein in the worst of the Tory excesses, but not Labour.

Gordons gaffes

1. Taxing dividend payments

Before 1997, dividends issued by UK companies and paid to pension funds were tax-free - that is, the tax could be claimed back via a system of tax credits. Not any more, decided Brown. Tax relief was scrapped, reducing the amount collected by pension funds by around £5 billion a year. Pension funds holding the cash that you, me and almost everyone else in the country plan to use for our retirement have lost around £100 billion over the last 12 years. That's one hell of a stealth tax.

2. Selling our gold

In May 1999 Gordon Brown had a plan to sell some gold. There were two problems with this, which concerned his economic advisers deeply. The price of gold had slumped after a decade of stagnation, but was likely to increase in the proceeding years. Added to this, the announcement of a major sell-off would drive the price down further. Little of this worried Gordon. Experts believe that the poorly timed decision to flog our national treasure has cost us all around £3 billion. Granted, that doesn't seem much nowadays, but more of that later.

3. Tripartite financial regulation

The system of financial regulation dividing powers between the Treasury, the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority, established by Brown as Chancellor in 2000, missed what amounted to the biggest financial crisis of our lifetime. Whoops. This has led some glass-half-empty commentators to conclude that the system set up by Brown failed and should be replaced. The Commons Treasury Select Committee’s report on the collapse of Northern Rock said that the Financial Services Authority had “systematically failed in its duty” to oversee the troubled bank’s activities. Little did it realise at the time that Northern Rock was the over-leveraged tip of the securitised iceberg.

4. Tax credits

“Gordon Brown claims the tax credits system lifts children out of poverty,” says Simon Blackmore, 38, who was pursued for £6,057 in over-paid tax credits. “Maybe it does, but only to plunge them and their families into debt two years later.” Millions of low-income families have had to pay back the Treasury after receiving too much money in tax credits, putting them under huge financial and emotional strain. Meanwhile, 40 per cent of workers and families who deserved tax credits left billions of pounds unclaimed in the 2008-09 tax year for fear of being chased for the cash later on. Introduced in 1999, reformed in 2000, tax credits have been "a complete disaster zone", according to tax experts.

5. The £10,000 corporation tax threshold

In 2002, Gordon Brown introduced a new tax regime to help small businesses. He announced a new zero per cent rate of corporation tax on profits below £10,000. It was designed to boost the ability of small businesses to grow and prosper. It didn't quite work out this way. It became advantageous for sole traders such as taxi drivers or plumbers to turn themselves into limited companies to take advantage of the new rules. A Treasury Minister later commented that "the Government did not realise how many people would engage in abusive tax avoidance", despite the fact that it was "blindingly obvious" to tax experts "within 5 seconds" of the budget announcement that this would happen. Gordon scrapped the rules a few years later, raising the rate from 0 per cent to 19 per cent when he released how much money was being lost.

6. Abolition of the 10p tax rate

Mr Brown rarely apologises. In fact, he never apologises. But occasionally he acknowledges "mistakes", albeit begrudgingly. Over the abolition of the 10p tax rate in 2007, Mr Brown told Radio 4's Today programme that "we made two mistakes. We didn't cover as well as we should that group of low-paid workers who don't get the working tax credits and we weren't able to help the 60 to 64-year-olds who didn't get the pensioner's tax allowance." Experts use stronger language to describe the Budget of 2007, which was designed to produce positive headlines for the 2p cut in income tax. Accountants calculated that the scrapping of the 10 per cent tax rate, coupled with the increase in the proportion of tax credits withdrawn from higher earners, would leave 1.8 million workers earning between £6,500 and £15,000 paying an effective tax rate of up to 70 per cent.

7. Failing to spot the housing bubble

Gordon Brown said he ended boom and bust, and in those innocent days before the collapse of the global finance system we believed him. In 1997, he outlined his plans. "Stability is necessary for our future economic success", he wisely informed an audience at the CBI. "The British economy of the future must be built not on the shifting sands of boom and bust, but on the bedrock of prudent and wise economic management." The other components of that bedrock including a trillion-pound debt mountain and a decade of unchecked and unparalleled house price inflation presumably slipped his mind. In 2003 a mild-mannered Liberal Democrat MP by the name of Vince Cable dared to question the mantra of "the end of boom and bust". He asked Gordon Brown: "Is it not true that...the growth of the British economy is sustained by consumer spending pinned against record levels of personal debt, which is secured, if at all, against house prices that the Bank of England describes as well above equilibrium level?" Gordon replied: "The Honourable Gentleman has been writing articles in the newspapers, as reflected in his contribution, that spread alarm, without substance, about the state of the economy..." We all know what happened next.

8. 50 per cent tax rate

Robert Chote, director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, has said the tax hike which heralded the end the new Labour may actually end up losing the Government money. "If you look at what happened when higher rates were last changed in the 1980s, that might lead you to suggest that such a move might actually lose you revenue, rather than gain it, as people actually declare less income for tax," he said.

9. Cutting VAT

"It would be funny if it wasn’t so serious," said a tax accountant when asked about the Brown-Darling brainwave to cut VAT by 2.5 percentage points. As a nation of shoppers, rather than shopkeepers, a chopped down sales tax sounds like a good idea, providing a vital boost to hard-pressed families at a time of financial hardship. There were two problems. It costs £12.5 billion a year and it has made little discernable difference to those hard-pressed families because it is shopkeepers, rather than shoppers, who have pocketed much of the benefit.

10. Public-sector borrowing

If Gordon had only saved a little more in the good times, we might have had a little more to fall back on in the bad, economists sigh. Last month saw public-sector net borrowing hit £19.9 billion, the highest on record, according to the Office for National Statistics. The chancellor of the exchequer, Alistair Darling, has forecast that Government borrowing will reach £175 billion this year. It is forecast that total government debt will double to 79 per cent of GDP by 2013, the highest level since World War 2. Mr Chote recently warned that "the scale of the underlying problem that the Treasury’s detailed forecasts identify will require two full parliaments of mounting austerity to repair.”
 
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SkyblueBazza

Well-Known Member
What about all the dead & injured from Blair's exploits in the Middle East?
Peace (?) In Northern Ireland?
Selling off a huge chunk of our sovereignty to Europe?

...onwards & upwards PUSB
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
The Piece Process in Northern Ireland was John Majors baby although it would be wrong to not acknowledge the great work done by a rare labour shining light that is Mo Mowlem. Recognised by her own party members when she got a standing round of applause when Tony Blair mentioned it during his speech at a Labour party conference. He didn't like it one bit, put on a brave face and then stabbed her in the back at the first opportunity for stealing his thunder.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
Well if we're into Labour bashing we must not forget the assault they lead on ignoring our Human Rights. This happened so much, the European Court of Human Rights actually put forward a rhetorical question when dealing with the last Labour Government stating that it seemed it was doing all it could do to delay setting up a ruling from the court. The ruling was finally passed in what was the last legislature from the Labour Government from that time. The members of the last Labour Government in most part were wankers, plain and simple. The Conservatives though are even worse with their views on Human Rights. They want us to abandon our own rights and freedoms that protect us from Government ideology and for them to have the final say. This would be fine with a justice system that was independent from Government. Unfortunately, the Crown and Government are so interwoven in the justice system it makes the idea that we live in a liberal Democracy, a very sad joke.
 
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Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
Surely sense will prevail and they will vote in somebody who is electable, Corbyn is the second worst there behind Mrs Ed Bollocks, I think Andy Burnham is the perfect choice with Chukka as deputy.

I am a Labour voter and would not bother to vote if they don't go for Burnham.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
I quite like the idea of a Corbyn as a leader. Someone who has morals and above all, not part of the last Labour Government. If you were part of the last Labour Government, you gave the leadership tacit consent for what they did and saying you disagreed with the ideas in principle doesn't remove you from the shared blame.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
I quite like the idea of a Corbyn as a leader. Someone who has morals and above all, not part of the last Labour Government. If you were part of the last Labour Government, you gave the leadership tacit consent for what they did and saying you disagreed with the ideas in principle doesn't remove you from the shared blame.


He has about as much of a chance of being pm as you and I so seems a pointless choice unless you want more of Cameron or worse Osborne or that nutcase Johnson. Burnham strikes me as a fairly sensible fellow but I did want Chukka to have a go.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
He would at least offer an alternative, as opposed to the Tory-lite of most of the other options...
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
Labour are just a bit outdated these days. Who exactly is a left wing Labour man representing now ? We do need some credible opposition though.
 

Macca

Well-Known Member
surely it doesn't matter who is leader, next time they get in they are going to save the country right?
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
An alternative no one will touch with a barge pole.

That is the Catch 22 though isn't it?

Is Blair acceptable because he was electable, despite not really doing much to reverse the iniquity of Thatcherism? Is it better to have some of what you want more often, than the potential of all of what you want, and a distinct alternative?

One thing you can say for Corbyn is he's authentic in his beliefs, and genuine. If managed properly that offers a selling point. The issue comes whenever the PR men get their hands on whoever, and try to turn them into something they're not. It' partly why Blair was electable because he already was smooth and a warm speaker before they got to him... and he could embrace his inauthenticity.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
That is the Catch 22 though isn't it?

Is Blair acceptable because he was electable, despite not really doing much to reverse the iniquity of Thatcherism? Is it better to have some of what you want more often, than the potential of all of what you want, and a distinct alternative?

One thing you can say for Corbyn is he's authentic in his beliefs, and genuine. If managed properly that offers a selling point. The issue comes whenever the PR men get their hands on whoever, and try to turn them into something they're not. It' partly why Blair was electable because he already was smooth and a warm speaker before they got to him... and he could embrace his inauthenticity.

The same authentic qualities apply to Farage.

Actually is Corbyn anti EU? Always makes me smile that Foot and Benn actually agreed with old Nigel on Europe.

This country loaths radicalism. I can assure you if we'd elected Foot, Benn and that fool Heffer we'd have been enslaved to a Russian style Marxism that would have destroyed the countries economy.

Whatever thatchers faults (her liberalism was actually a big fault) she was the only alternative at the time and solely by preventing the neo-Marxist Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn from running this country (through the hapless puppet Foot) she deserves some credit.

Any affluence or luxuries you now enjoy you should be thankful to thatcher for.

The alternative would have been no EU no NATO and ultimate rule from the Soviet Union.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
The same authentic qualities apply to Farage.

And that's his selling point, that enables people to see beyond the more unsavoury parts of his policies. It's what garners votes where otherwise there may well be none.

Actually is Corbyn anti EU? Always makes me smile that Foot and Benn actually agreed with old Nigel on Europe.

It always depends for what reason though. Personally I'm all for tariffs and a certain protectionism on trade... not however because I want to keep those dirty foreigners out!

This country loaths radicalism.

Hmm, debatable but yes, there is a certain trend towards the maintenance of social structures.

A bunch of sensationalism where Grendel decends to Sun-speak
 
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
Hardly descending to sun speak - merely showing that the Labour Party lurching to an 80's style of socialist politics will mean years and years of Tory government.

On humanitarian and welfare issues I am hardly right of centre.

The economy - if you believe in capitalism- has to have a belief in base Tory principals. The maligning of the Thatcher years really is done in a very immature way. There is always context to the argument. The context is that society will always support those that offer opportunity hope and most importantly ambition. The socialist dogma of the 80's chocked any hope of ambition and self development. Society rejected it. Blair managed to merge both to a degree and therefore was elected.

The choice of Corbyn and his desire for a concrete Stalinist world of oppression and stifling of talent and the Etonian right wing Johnson will, I assure you, be no contest. It's interesting how the left have tried to bully Kendall out of the contest as that's what the left always do. Bully and oppress.

I grew up in thatchers Britain.y family were poor and I went to a poor school. Only one of my family to go to university. So thatchers Britain to me offered ambition and hope and reward for hard work. I'm pretty certain that same hope for the working classes would not have been available via Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn.
 

lifeskyblue

Well-Known Member
I agree that the Tories are likely to be the winners in whoever labour chooses. They are an insipid bunch. In fact Corbyn is possibly the only one who believes what he is saying and if he wins the Tories will be on cloud 9. But does that mean Corbyn will still be in for the next election? Not necessarily. Remember there was talk of labour ousting mileband 6/12 before the last election. For me no matter how good labour are or how bad the Tories are the result will be the 'conservative' right wing media calling the shots and discrediting labour even when they get it right. The establishment including senior politicians of both party want nothing but the status quo. Look at the crash in 08 all sides clamoured for bailing out the banks even tho both sides consistently spoke against bailing out other industries in trouble. The problem was for capitalism, at that moment, the market if it was allowed to continue would have brought about the end of capitalism itself. Now labour under brown, the Tories, the yanks and all the first world had to stick together and manipulate markets otherwise they all would have been history. On a smaller scale the Greek crisis is similar...the consequence of the euro failure is more than most governments dare to contemplate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Johnnythespider

Well-Known Member
Hardly descending to sun speak - merely showing that the Labour Party lurching to an 80's style of socialist politics will mean years and years of Tory government.

On humanitarian and welfare issues I am hardly right of centre.

The economy - if you believe in capitalism- has to have a belief in base Tory principals. The maligning of the Thatcher years really is done in a very immature way. There is always context to the argument. The context is that society will always support those that offer opportunity hope and most importantly ambition. The socialist dogma of the 80's chocked any hope of ambition and self development. Society rejected it. Blair managed to merge both to a degree and therefore was elected.

The choice of Corbyn and his desire for a concrete Stalinist world of oppression and stifling of talent and the Etonian right wing Johnson will, I assure you, be no contest. It's interesting how the left have tried to bully Kendall out of the contest as that's what the left always do. Bully and oppress.

I grew up in thatchers Britain.y family were poor and I went to a poor school. Only one of my family to go to university. So thatchers Britain to me offered ambition and hope and reward for hard work. I'm pretty certain that same hope for the working classes would not have been available via Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn.
Would you have gone to university if it meant building up a £53,000 debt, which is what those starting their degree's next year face. The less well off are being priced out of education by this government, where is the opportunity in that. I'd never heard of Corbyn until a few weeks ago but every time I've seen him in a debate with the other candidates he's wiped the floor with them, I'm fed up of well manicured image over substance politicians and welcome the likes of Corbyn to the frontline, how those who put him forward as a bit of a joke must be regretting their actions now.
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
I'll vote for whoever promises to bring Mars Bars back to their original size!! :D
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
As a lifelong Labour voter and member I hope JC does become the new leader of the Party and I'll be voting for him.

There needs to be a strong opposition to the Tory tossers and none of the others will be. Look at Ed Milliband, totally useless. Look at Harriet Harman who actually backed the welfare cuts along with many Labour MPs. Incredible.

JC will at least question Tory policy and vote against those he believes to be damaging to the working people of Britain. The Tory Lite option of Kendall, Cooper and Burnham will set up back even further.

Sock it to 'em JC.
 

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
Absolutely agree re Jeremy Corburn the campaign by the Tory inspired press tells us in reality Cameron and co are frit to death of him, he will unite the party and has 5 years to do it, he is carasmatic and will rid us of the middle class monopoly at Walworth Road.Despite their recent beating of chests the Tories only have a small majority and with the Europe question to come Cameronsnot as comfortable Ashe makespit
 

Ashdown

Well-Known Member
As a lifelong Labour voter and member I hope JC does become the new leader of the Party and I'll be voting for him.

There needs to be a strong opposition to the Tory tossers and none of the others will be. Look at Ed Milliband, totally useless. Look at Harriet Harman who actually backed the welfare cuts along with many Labour MPs. Incredible.

JC will at least question Tory policy and vote against those he believes to be damaging to the working people of Britain. The Tory Lite option of Kendall, Cooper and Burnham will set up back even further.

Sock it to 'em JC.

Did you see that delightful woman from Shepshed on that reality TV type documentary 'Too fat to work'. Her and her husband { carer} were able to claim £2,200 per month predominantly because she was 21 stone and played the agoraphobic. There are cuts that could and should be made alright, because way too many know how to play the system.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Did you see that delightful woman from Shepshed on that reality TV type documentary 'Too fat to work'. Her and her husband { carer} were able to claim £2,200 per month predominantly because she was 21 stone and played the agoraphobic. There are cuts that could and should be made alright, because way too many know how to play the system.

Picking the exceptions does not prove the rule.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
As a lifelong Labour voter and member I hope JC does become the new leader of the Party and I'll be voting for him.

There needs to be a strong opposition to the Tory tossers and none of the others will be. Look at Ed Milliband, totally useless. Look at Harriet Harman who actually backed the welfare cuts along with many Labour MPs. Incredible.

JC will at least question Tory policy and vote against those he believes to be damaging to the working people of Britain. The Tory Lite option of Kendall, Cooper and Burnham will set up back even further.

Sock it to 'em JC.

I left the Labour Party after Blair moved them away from Labour. Each election I pray more for an alternative. I'm not entirely convinced by Corbyn, as much because I know little about his background, and whether his previous absence from frontline politics is politically driven, or due to competence.

Of the candidates standing, he's the only one I feel could persuade me to re-join... but it would be a watching brief.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
And every person who claims benefits is exactly the same as that woman, are they? Every SINGLE person? Yes or no?

FFS.

Did you see that delightful woman from Shepshed on that reality TV type documentary 'Too fat to work'. Her and her husband { carer} were able to claim £2,200 per month predominantly because she was 21 stone and played the agoraphobic. There are cuts that could and should be made alright, because way too many know how to play the system.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
Absolutely agree re Jeremy Corburn the campaign by the Tory inspired press tells us in reality Cameron and co are frit to death of him, he will unite the party and has 5 years to do it, he is carasmatic and will rid us of the middle class monopoly at Walworth Road.Despite their recent beating of chests the Tories only have a small majority and with the Europe question to come Cameronsnot as comfortable Ashe makespit

I almost took that last word as Snakespit.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Absolutely agree re Jeremy Corburn the campaign by the Tory inspired press tells us in reality Cameron and co are frit to death of him, he will unite the party and has 5 years to do it, he is carasmatic and will rid us of the middle class monopoly at Walworth Road.Despite their recent beating of chests the Tories only have a small majority and with the Europe question to come Cameronsnot as comfortable Ashe makespit

Tories are praying for a Corbyn victory - it will send labour into the wilderness for decades

Unite the party? Ha ha many have already said they will refuse to sit in a Corbyn cabinet. One senior labour figure who approved his candidacy has now labelled herself a moron for doing so.

If he won he'd be gone in 6 months but the aftermath would wreck and split the party for decades.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Totally agree with you but for those who defend any cuts at all are being a bit naïve because alongside those who genuinely need help is a culture of career scroungers.

The basic ethos of Attlee and Bevan was for the system not to be a lifestyle choice. How times have changed.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Totally agree with you but for those who defend any cuts at all are being a bit naïve because alongside those who genuinely need help is a culture of career scroungers.

No, thoe wh use the exceptions to disregard the absolute need for a support system are those who are naive.

Sometimes, people need to walk a mile in others' shoes before judging and stereotyping and using lazy sensationalism.
 

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