Nice article in the Independent (6 Viewers)

[Ashdown]

What a complete misunderstanding of what happened. If SISU hadn't have bought us we would have gone into admin and not only would SISU have not been interested we would have had options on who bought us. You can't even say that SISU saved us from admin as they ensured we went through that process also.

Did Rich think they took us on out of the kindness of their heart ?? Especially that gold digger with a very nearly apt name !

 

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[We'll_live_and_die]

Yes we'd have been saved by Geoffrey Robinson's consortium - though given his main backer fled and said he couldn't imagine anyone on earth buying the club - perhaps not

Hang on are you saying SISU saved us twice?

 

[skybluetony176]

In that case by your own barometer 95% of owners fail to deliver their objective

The recruitment of Mowbray like it or not is a coup. I believe you said nobody would work for the current regime or they would have to be a nobody.

It's difficult to believe that Mowbray would have been attracted to many clubs at this level so attracting a manager of his calibre is an achievement.

They all failed to deliver what we as fans should expect as the bare minimum for our club consistently. Some more than others but either way we still shouldn't be slapping anyone on the back for doing what they're supposed to do.

Did they fail to deliver on their own objectives? I've no idea. I don't pretend to know for a moment what SISU's or any other owners real objectives were. I'm talking about what we should expect of them, not what they expect of themselves.

The recruitment of TM is indeed a coup and I do like it. It's also what I expect as a minimum. Employing the best person for the job. I'd be a strange football fan if I didn't. I'd probably be happy that AT got his old job back.

 

[Nick]

I can see Dongo and bigfatron making a return for this thread

 

[Grendel]

They all failed to deliver what we as fans should expect as the bare minimum for our club consistently. Some more than others but either way we still shouldn't be slapping anyone on the back for doing what they're supposed to do.

Did they fail to deliver on their own objectives? I've no idea. I don't pretend to know for a moment what SISU's or any other owners real objectives were. I'm talking about what we should expect of them, not what they expect of themselves.

The recruitment of TM is indeed a coup and I do like it. It's also what I expect as a minimum. Employing the best person for the job. I'd be a strange football fan if I didn't. I'd probably be happy that AT got his old job back.

Recruiting a manager above the level the club is that is not a minimum expectancy by definition.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

People seem to forget that this is a business and the owners are supporting the business by keeping it operating. If this were a manufacturing company down Bayton Road, the owners would've shut it down along time ago.

Or sold it on to someone who cared about it and who knew what they were doing. How can anyone not see that Sisu have been an utter disaster for our club.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes we'd have been saved by Geoffrey Robinson's consortium - though given his main backer fled and said he couldn't imagine anyone on earth buying the club - perhaps not

I think the admin process proved that we were more attractive to more parties in admin than when teetering. There would have been more parties than Robinsons and you know it. I think we both know as well that if we had have gone into admin not only would SISU not have touched us with a barge pole we would also have been carrying considerably less debt if any at all.

 

[chiefdave]

What a complete misunderstanding of what happened. If SISU hadn't have bought us we would have gone into admin and not only would SISU have not been interested we would have had options on who bought us. You can't even say that SISU saved us from admin as they ensured we went through that process also.

People seem to forget that the process run at the time was in all but name administration. KPMG were even brought in to run it. The only reason we technically didn't go into administration at that point was that the debt was to the likes of Robinson and putting the club into administration would have most likely led to those owed money receiving less.

As it turned out it was SISU or nothing, going into administration at that point would have been highly unlikely to see any additional interested parties. The other interested parties were all either put of after talks with the council or rejected outright as the council. Coincidentally SISU's offer to takeover the club was the only one that didn't require ownership of the stadium.

I think, although I can't recall for sure, that SISU said if we went into admin they would walk away so we were in danger of ending up with no offers on the table at all.

 

[Grendel]

I think the admin process proved that we were more attractive to more parties in admin than when teetering. There would have been more parties than Robinsons and you know it. I think we both know as well that if we had have gone into admin not only would SISU not have touched us with a barge pole we would also have been carrying considerably less debt if any at all.

We were effectively in administration. The requirement to pay certain debts was the reason we weren't.

Also please bear in mind that the council and Higgs firmly wanted s buyer who did not require Ricoh ownership.

 

[skybluetony176]

Recruiting a manager above the level the club is that is not a minimum expectancy by definition.

Now you're just talking nonsense. Of course it is. We would just be standing still at best otherwise and what sort of a football fan is ever going to advocate that? Except you apparently.

 

[Grendel]

Now you're just talking nonsense. Of course it is. We would just be standing still at best otherwise and what sort of a football fan is ever going to advocate that? Except you apparently.

I see. So you expect for example Rochdale to recruit a premier league manager and if they didn't and you supported Rochdale you would believe the club failed in its duties as owners?

 

[oscillatewildly]

50 grand on repainting...yikes

Yes, you'd have thought we would be a more than worthy recipient of a Nick Knowles & gang type makeover.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

I can see Dongo and bigfatron making a return for this thread

And here you are too

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

They made some bad decisions and these are experienced businesspeople. I would have to think that anyone is as likely to have made such bad decisions.
I remember sitting outside a factory on Bayton Road, thinking thank fuck we still have a club to support as Ranson and cronies saved us at the last minute. Whinging bastards like to forget we wouldn't have a club at all had our shite owners not taken over.

I'm not trying to defend the poor business moves as they've made plenty, but if they hadn't taken over we wouldn't have a club at all, when will everyone stop banging on about them and accept the situation that the club is in?

How do you know that if Sisu had not appeared on the scene all of those years ago that if we had gone into administration, that someone else who actually cared about the club and who knew what they were doing would not have come along. History proves you wrong because in my time being interested in football and supporting the City ( nearly 50 years) very few clubs have disappeared completely. Maidstone are one such club although they may have been reformed in another guise. Bradford PA, Aldershot, Accrington, Darlington and Rushden may all have been liquidated I think, but all ( due to their fans) have returned. A club of our stature has never disappeared. Lots of teams have gone into administration and returned stronger. Why would we have been the exception? We owe Sisu nothing. At best they have been incompetent, in reality they have been malicious and devious. If we our successful this season it will be inspite of Sisu, not because of them.

 

[Nick]

And here you are too

Yes, have already posted in this thread. What's your point? :facepalm:

 

[chiefdave]

How do you know that if Sisu had not appeared on the scene all of those years ago that if we had gone into administration,

KPMG ran it exactly the same as they would an administration process. They sought out all potential buyers. If you recall at the time there was interest besides SISU however the council put an end to interest from all but SISU as they were not prepared to release control of the Ricoh.

There was a very real danger that had the club been placed into administration there would have been no buyers as SISU would have walked away. In fact that was the tactic used to persuade the likes of Robinson to accept the offer from SISU, KPMG put a deadline in place and said if the sale didn't take place by the deadline the club would be placed into administration and there was a very good chance those owed money would lose everything.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

KPMG ran it exactly the same as they would an administration process. They sought out all potential buyers. If you recall at the time there was interest besides SISU however the council put an end to interest from all but SISU as they were not prepared to release control of the Ricoh.

There was a very real danger that had the club been placed into administration there would have been no buyers as SISU would have walked away. In fact that was the tactic used to persuade the likes of Robinson to accept the offer from SISU, KPMG put a deadline in place and said if the sale didn't take place by the deadline the club would be placed into administration and there was a very good chance those owed money would lose everything.

You are still saying that if administration had happened no one would have been interested in rescuing the club. How do you know this. No club of our size has ever disappeared. Why would we?

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Still, it was a nice article in the independent wasn't it

 

[chiefdave]

You are still saying that if administration had happened no one would have been interested in rescuing the club. How do you know this. No club of our size has ever disappeared. Why would we?

Read what I am saying. In all but name we were in administration, the fact that we weren't was down to a technicality regarding who the money was owed to.

KPMG ran what to all intents and purposes was a full administration process. The did exactly the same things they would have done had we been in administration including seeking out all potential interested purchasers. Of those that they found the only ones who were prepared to take the club on as a going concern, given that the council would no relinquish control of the Ricoh, were SISU. One of their conditions of purchase was that the club was not placed into administration.

Therefore its a fairly safe conclusion that had SISU's offer, as the only interested purchaser, been rejected the club would have been placed into administration formally with no potential purchasers. Of course there is nothing to say that someone wouldn't have appeared at the last minute, but it would have been a huge risk to take with a very real danger of the club ceasing to exist. In fact that would have been by far the most likely outcome.

 

[skybluetony176]

I see. So you expect for example Rochdale to recruit a premier league manager and if they didn't and you supported Rochdale you would believe the club failed in its duties as owners?

Why should I care what Rochdale do? I'm a CCFC fan.

We have a good manager who can elevate our position. Why should I expect anything else from our owners? They get no extra brownie points for doing what they're supposed to do as a minimum. Employ the best available man for the job. They get no extra brownie points for putting control of the budget in the hands of the people best equipped with the skills to make the most of it either. That's the minimum we should expect of our owners.

 

[skybluetony176]

Read what I am saying. In all but name we were in administration, the fact that we weren't was down to a technicality regarding who the money was owed to.

KPMG ran what to all intents and purposes was a full administration process. The did exactly the same things they would have done had we been in administration including seeking out all potential interested purchasers. Of those that they found the only ones who were prepared to take the club on as a going concern, given that the council would no relinquish control of the Ricoh, were SISU. One of their conditions of purchase was that the club was not placed into administration.

Therefore its a fairly safe conclusion that had SISU's offer, as the only interested purchaser, been rejected the club would have been placed into administration formally with no potential purchasers. Of course there is nothing to say that someone wouldn't have appeared at the last minute, but it would have been a huge risk to take with a very real danger of the club ceasing to exist. In fact that would have been by far the most likely outcome.

How much debt did we shed by being in "admin in all but name"?

We gained nothing from what happened accept SISU, a conveyor belt of useless people in the board room, more debt (although apparently not real debt, fits in well with the virtual admin I suppose) actual administration and failure.

 

[chiefdave]

How much debt did we shed by being in "admin in all but name"?

We gained nothing from what happened accept SISU, a conveyor belt of useless people in the board room, more debt (although apparently not real debt, fits in well with the virtual admin I suppose) actual administration and failure.

It depends how you look at it I suspect, imagine OSB could explain better than me. Essentially the debt was largely wiped with promises of future payments if we reached the PL in a certain timeframe. However despite the fact the debts weren't actually paid SISU seemed to use an accounting trick so that they were still on the books. This is what screwed us when we actually went into administration as it put SISU in the driving seat.

The fact that SISU coming in has been a disaster and we didn't benefit from the process we went through doesn't mean an alternative would be better as that alternative could very well have been no club at all.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Read what I am saying. In all but name we were in administration, the fact that we weren't was down to a technicality regarding who the money was owed to.

KPMG ran what to all intents and purposes was a full administration process. The did exactly the same things they would have done had we been in administration including seeking out all potential interested purchasers. Of those that they found the only ones who were prepared to take the club on as a going concern, given that the council would no relinquish control of the Ricoh, were SISU. One of their conditions of purchase was that the club was not placed into administration.

Therefore its a fairly safe conclusion that had SISU's offer, as the only interested purchaser, been rejected the club would have been placed into administration formally with no potential purchasers. Of course there is nothing to say that someone wouldn't have appeared at the last minute, but it would have been a huge risk to take with a very real danger of the club ceasing to exist. In fact that would have been by far the most likely outcome.

I can't say that this person or that organisation would have come in to save us. The fact is that I don't know. As I have said above, no club of our size has ever "gone" and their have been lots in just as precarious position as we were.Those clubs that have had to close down have all been reborn. I cannot believe that CCFC would have ceased to exist and we may have still had hope of one day owning the Ricoh, something that due to Sisu's game plan is now a. Very distant hope.

 

[Grendel]

I can't say that this person or that organisation would have come in to save us. The fact is that I don't know. As I have said above, no club of our size has ever "gone" and their have been lots in just as precarious position as we were.Those clubs that have had to close down have all been reborn. I cannot believe that CCFC would have ceased to exist and we may have still had hope of one day owning the Ricoh, something that due to Sisu's game plan is now a. Very distant hope.

At the time the council did not want to sell. From a buyers perspective there was nothing attractive.

A 22,000 break even figure with at best a competitive wage bill.

The 22,000 crowds we were attracting were at huge subsidies. Only an average of £10 a ticket. At that turnover we needed 44,000 to break even.

The only club (bar one) that had no revenue access, no naming right income (which was always the big one as it equates to rent free) and at best a hope of purchasing half share of a company that we now know was 3 times over valued.

We wouldn't have been touched with a barge pole.

 

[Huckerby]

Why should I care what Rochdale do? I'm a CCFC fan.

We have a good manager who can elevate our position. Why should I expect anything else from our owners? They get no extra brownie points for doing what they're supposed to do as a minimum. Employ the best available man for the job. They get no extra brownie points for putting control of the budget in the hands of the people best equipped with the skills to make the most of it either. That's the minimum we should expect of our owners.

Can't tell whether you're being deliberately belligerent or whether you are just too stupid to actually get the point.

Tony Mowbray is way out of our league as a manager. Therefore managing to secure him was a coup. You are saying this is the minimum expectation of any owners?

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[skybluetony176]

Can't tell whether you're being deliberately belligerent or whether you are just too stupid to actually get the point.

Tony Mowbray is way out of our league as a manager. Therefore managing to secure him was a coup. You are saying this is the minimum expectation of any owners?

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I've been quite clear on this. Employing the best available man for the job is the least SISU should be doing. In fact it's the least any well run company should be doing regardless of who that company is and what industry they're in. TM was the best man available, so well done SISU on doing what you should be doing. Again well done SISU on taking control of the budget from 2 people with a track record of failure at football clubs and handing it to someone who knows what they're doing. Again, the least they should be doing.

 

[Nick]

So if mowbray signed messi he wouldn't get any credit? It's just what he should be doing?

 

[lifeskyblue]

If Mowbray signed messi I would know that the first 3 unbeaten games was just a dream and I would be waking up to another relegation battle



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[Huckerby]

I've been quite clear on this. Employing the best available man for the job is the least SISU should be doing. In fact it's the least any well run company should be doing regardless of who that company is and what industry they're in. TM was the best man available, so well done SISU on doing what you should be doing. Again well done SISU on taking control of the budget from 2 people with a track record of failure at football clubs and handing it to someone who knows what they're doing. Again, the least they should be doing.

Well surely they should've hired Alex Ferguson then? Surely he would be the best man for the job? At least you've answered my question on whether it's stupidity or not...

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[skybluetony176]

So if mowbray signed messi he wouldn't get any credit? It's just what he should be doing?

He'd have to get a bigger budget first.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well surely they should've hired Alex Ferguson then? Surely he would be the best man for the job? At least you've answered my question on whether it's stupidity or not...

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Is Alex Ferguson looking for a job? Only I thought he'd retired.

 

[Grendel]

I've been quite clear on this. Employing the best available man for the job is the least SISU should be doing. In fact it's the least any well run company should be doing regardless of who that company is and what industry they're in. TM was the best man available, so well done SISU on doing what you should be doing. Again well done SISU on taking control of the budget from 2 people with a track record of failure at football clubs and handing it to someone who knows what they're doing. Again, the least they should be doing.

Do you think Mowbray is a good recruit by the standards of this division?

 

[Nick]

He'd have to get a bigger budget first.

No he has managed to get a player out of our range to sign...

What about if a player scores a hat trick every game? Just doing their job, no praise?

 

[Grendel]

Well surely they should've hired Alex Ferguson then? Surely he would be the best man for the job? At least you've answered my question on whether it's stupidity or not...

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I think the question was always rhetorical.

 

[skybluetony176]

Do you think Mowbray is a good recruit by the standards of this division?

By the standards we've come to expect from our owners. Yes. For the standards of this division. No.