Grendel
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen Burge make great saves.
He's the worst goalkeeper we've had since 1982. If Ogrizovic is asked the question he should answer honestly - he's out his depth, get rid.
Lee Burge (8 Viewers)
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I haven't seen Burge make great saves.
He's the worst goalkeeper we've had since 1982. If Ogrizovic is asked the question he should answer honestly - he's out his depth, get rid.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Their first goal, the cross doesn't come across Burge, it comes in towards him with with their man running on to it and meeting it. In that situation the keeper is not favourite to clean it out. The question that should be being asked is how their forward found such a hole between our two centre backs to claim a free header.
its like the Ricketts goal, you can't blame their keeper for not cleaning it up. Some balls into the box are the keepers responsibility; others are why you have four defenders on the pitch, it is their responsibility. If an attacker is getting a free header in the centre of goal outside the six yard box your central defenders are sleeping and not doing their work.
Burge didn't have a lot to do but did make saves. His kicking was okay. Some say he doesn't give the defence confidence.....well he cleaned out two suicidal back passes after sloppy defensive/midfield play.
He seems to be improving and some of the criticism and blame for last night is unjustified if not bizarre?
its like the Ricketts goal, you can't blame their keeper for not cleaning it up. Some balls into the box are the keepers responsibility; others are why you have four defenders on the pitch, it is their responsibility. If an attacker is getting a free header in the centre of goal outside the six yard box your central defenders are sleeping and not doing their work.
Burge didn't have a lot to do but did make saves. His kicking was okay. Some say he doesn't give the defence confidence.....well he cleaned out two suicidal back passes after sloppy defensive/midfield play.
He seems to be improving and some of the criticism and blame for last night is unjustified if not bizarre?
The trouble is a lot of fans have selective amnesia. Every man and his dog now claims Pressley was a poor manager, yet conveniently forget the huge amount of posts not that long ago, worrying about Pressley being poached or him 'doing' a Robbins and walking out. Remember the song 'there's only one Stephen Pressley' ringing round the ground every game, sung by thousands of fans, now you will struggle to find anyone who claims to ever have rated him.
If fans genuinely think Burge is that bad, then what does it say about their confidence in Mowbray's judgement. The goalkeeping spot is a really key position, everybody accepts that, so basically fans are saying that Mowbray's judgement in a vital position is woeful.
sw88
Chief Commentator!
So how is it unfair to compare him to a keeper in the same league now, and has been in the same position for only one club, in addition to a loan to a lower league team, who is also the same age? Surely that's the ideal kind of player to compare him against? if we were comparing him to De Gea or Cech, that would be unfair, wouldn't it?
Hobo
Well-Known Member
because fans are judging their keeper on the saves he had to make and Burge on the saves he didn't have to make. Burge wasn't responsible for either of our goals last night and did what he needed to do. Are you going to put forward an argument that their two strikers are better than Armstrong because he didn't score and they did?
sw88
Chief Commentator!
Not at all! Armstrong was a marked man. Their strikers were not marked men. And there was two of them. We had one.
As for Burge not being at fault, do you not think he should have atleast tried to claim the first one? Even if it meant taking out Reda at the same time, I think he should have done better.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
I have already posted on this, but will again just for you. It was a corner we are set up defensively, they take it short and shift the ball far too easily for the cross...bollicking for fullback and midfield.
the ball crossed in, it does not come in across Burge. It comes towards him on the angle with their player running on to it. Burge is not favourite for that, anymore than you could blame the Southend keeper for Rickets goal. Can I ask you how their striker has ran on to a free header centre of goal on the edge of our six yard box and neither Central defender is anywhere near to make a challenge. Everything that comes in the box is not the responsibility of the goalkeeper, you have four defenders as well.
People have forgotten the saves he made, not as spectacular as his opponent but he did what he needed. He also cleared out two suicidal back passes with confidence.
i am not saying Burge is a great keeper or on a par with the Southend keeper. However the way posters have ploughed into him for last night is totally unjust. It appears he is being blamed because the Southend lad had to make better saves than him.
I have already pointed out central defenders weaknesses last night. Look at the first clip on the highlights how Johnson gets caught out of position, makes a hash of a sliding tackle they put in a cross and miss the easiest chance of the night. Johnson was all over the place especially in the first half, and was the one giving the defence the jitters not Burge.
But Johnson scores and most people don't remember the weaknesses. At times he looked to have the turning ability and pace of Webster.
All I would ask is a bit more balance on how people judge players.
We made it hard for ourselves last night and should have won. But I think we might have lost that last season. More positives than negatives from the game and I thought Burge did okay and has come along way from the Worcester match. Why complain about progress.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
People who are saying he's fine seem to be basing it on the fact he isn't letting in howlers every again.
Whilst its true he's not really costing us goals he's not stopping goals either, he's made about 1 save in 5 games.
Whilst its true he's not really costing us goals he's not stopping goals either, he's made about 1 save in 5 games.
FRY-CCFC
Well-Known Member
I'm saying Bentley is far too good for this level. He's better than the majority of keepers in the league above let alone our league. Burge is a solid league one keeper.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
anybody notice when he caught the ball and their player challenged him (probably was a foul) burge decided to get up and shove him? If their player had gone down, Burge would have been off I think.
That was their no 9, he was all over him during the match but the ref did nothing. Before the cross came in for their first goal he pushed Burge back so he was past the far post, the ref was looking right at it and didn't say a word.
rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
Another thing about their first goal when the corner was taken short our defence stayed rooted had they moved out as one it would have left Southend players stranded in off-side positions No blame whatsoever on our goalie and
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
None of the goals have been specifically his fault but most of the 6 were saveable or preventable in some way by the keeper and he has got nowhere near any of them.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
You are right, none of the goals have been specifically his fault. But certain fans have been specifically criticising him for them, without any reference to who else might be responsible. Most of the six were saveable goals, by several players all doing their job better.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
True but at some point if you want to get promoted your keeper will have to bail you out with a great performance or important saves and ours doesn't look capable of it.
They say a good keeper is worth 10 points over the season, how many points is Burge worth?
Hobo
Well-Known Member
He bailed us out on at least two occasions last night, so perhaps he earned us a point.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Minus 10
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Just looked at the Walsall goals again. The first one, a midfielder is allowed to run in space then pick a pass to a player unmarked running into the box who produces a good finish slotting the ball past Burge as he comes out. The striker was running fairly central so had plenty of goal to aim at. Not one to blame the keeper on. Poor marking in midfield and on the edge of our box.
The second goal, Willis backs off and backs off allowing their player to run into the box and allows him to put in a cross come shot that Burge saves. To me it is not catchable and he pushes it out. Their striker who Reda is stood next to reacts quicker than Reda and scores. Again not one to blame the keeper for.
Both goals are poor defending not poor keeping.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How many other goalkeepers save and push the ball repeatedly back into the danger area?
He makes Mortyn Hyldergaard look good.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Neither of the Walsall goals are specifically his fault but he could have done better with both of them and a lot of keepers at this level would have done better.
Your missing the point, what does Redas defensive mistake have to do with Burges ability as a goalkeeper? I'm not analysing why we lost at Walsall or why we didnt win last night, I'm looking at Burge and his performances since he started playing in the first team last season and he hasn't been good enough imo.
He can make routine saves which you would expect from any goalkeeper playing in the conference. Anything more testing than that and it normally results in a goal for the opposition.
Your missing the point, what does Redas defensive mistake have to do with Burges ability as a goalkeeper? I'm not analysing why we lost at Walsall or why we didnt win last night, I'm looking at Burge and his performances since he started playing in the first team last season and he hasn't been good enough imo.
He can make routine saves which you would expect from any goalkeeper playing in the conference. Anything more testing than that and it normally results in a goal for the opposition.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
On the plus side, at least you didn't choose Shearer or Debec as a comparison.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
You are missing the point, that the defending in front of him has been poor and I mean routine defending. Last night we let Southend in too many times too easily in the first half. They missed two very good chances and scored two due to poor defending. We made it difficult for ourselves. Things improved in the second half and I don't think they created a chance. But you can't handicap yourself by conceding two goals....defenders to blame for the last four we have conceded.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Goals from CREWE first You could say his positioning isn't the best but it is a very good shot from range and difficult for any keeper. More a one off goal than the fault of the keeper or the defence.
their second goal the way the ball was put in over our central defenders it was not there for Burge to come and collect. Once their attacker out muscles our fullback he is one on one with the keeper. In that situation you would back the attacker every time.
Again I am not saying Burge is a great keeper, but to say the last six were saveable and suggest he is more at fault than some of the defending in front of him is very wide of the mark in my opinion.
their second goal the way the ball was put in over our central defenders it was not there for Burge to come and collect. Once their attacker out muscles our fullback he is one on one with the keeper. In that situation you would back the attacker every time.
Again I am not saying Burge is a great keeper, but to say the last six were saveable and suggest he is more at fault than some of the defending in front of him is very wide of the mark in my opinion.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The defending in front of Alsopp last season was far worse yet that was never acceptable as a defence for him,
He is poor. Positioning is poor, he doesn't move from the goal line, is weak in a 50 50 challenge, none existent in a one for one, tends on long range shots to push forward than across, has no ability to communicate and marshal the back four, has awful distribution.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
This is ridiculous.
We have fans proclaiming woe is me due to not having finished in the top 6 in 45 years.
Then these same people are defending the worst keeper we have had in my living memory. No doubt these are the same who were clutching at straws and claimed that the manager makes no difference to a team when defending the hopeless Thorn.
If fans idolise the likes on Burge and Thon then it's hardly a surprise we find ourselves where we are.
We have fans proclaiming woe is me due to not having finished in the top 6 in 45 years.
Then these same people are defending the worst keeper we have had in my living memory. No doubt these are the same who were clutching at straws and claimed that the manager makes no difference to a team when defending the hopeless Thorn.
If fans idolise the likes on Burge and Thon then it's hardly a surprise we find ourselves where we are.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I'm not missing the point at all, Burge is a poor keeper and that fact is irrelevant of the poor defending in front of him.
I still don't see how poor defending changes the fact he is a poor keeper, if I was blaming him for all the goals conceded then your points might have some relevance but I'm not doing that. In fact I've made a point of saying he hasn't been directly at fault for any of the goals.
You continue to miss the point.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Indeed.
It's like saying Roy O'donovan wasn't a poor striker as the service to him in one game was lacking.
The point is he was still useless.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
who has idolised Burge? Fans continually picking a whipping boy hides the overall inadequacies of the team. I would say people who idolise Reda Johnson are missing some big inadequacies. Yes he is a major threat at set pieces.....but at least my opinion is balanced and fair. As I said pre season I think Mowbrey could well improve the keepers position with a loan once the bigger teams have settled their squads. But so far it hasn't been his priority.
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
I think Burge showed he is reluctant to come and claim the ball at times and that cost us for their headed goal. Other times he is brave and is really not so bad and capable of some very good stops. He almost saved the penalty by the way.
Reda and Rickets were somehow off their game but both scored!
We have to have a physical option up top against these types of teams.
I think time will show Southend will get plenty of draws and this will seem a good point.
Phil Brown knew what he was doing.
Reda and Rickets were somehow off their game but both scored!
We have to have a physical option up top against these types of teams.
I think time will show Southend will get plenty of draws and this will seem a good point.
Phil Brown knew what he was doing.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Highlighted bit is spot one. He just doesn't instill confidence in the back four and doesn't show any sort of command of his area. This in turn gives the back four the jitters.
We need someone more experienced who can command his box.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Ricketts was quick to take the blame on behalf of the defense for the goal on CWR after the game. Don't remember his exact words but it was something along the lines of they didn't come of the line quick enough so didn't leave the room for Burge to come and take the ball.
Otis
Well-Known Member
But I'm not just talking about last night, Tony, I am talking about in general. And besides, Ricketts is hardly going to come out and blame an individual anyway is he.
I didn't see Burge as particularly at fault for either goal last night, but it seems clear to me that he makes the back 4 jumpy and nervy when he's behind the sticks.
He might become a good keeper in time perhaps, but for now I think we need a strong, commanding keeper at the helm.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
But how does a keeper ever get the experience, if a manager isn't brave enough to play him?
And in the long term, if the manager thinks he has enough promise to be first choice, surely we're better served by that then lurching from short term fix to short term fix?
If the manager *doesn't* think he has the promise, then that's a whole other ball game. But assuming he does...
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying he should be saving them all the time, it would be incredibly harsh to say that, just that they were savable. They were not unstoppable strikes a good keeper could pull off a good save, don't mean to say another keeper would have definitely kept them out but they would have the ability to.
By no means am I saying these are shots that should be saved 10/10 times but I don't think its too much to ask for a league one keeper to pull off the odd good save every now and then which I'm not seeing from Burge. Good keepers in this league will pull off 1 v 1 saves and make the occasional good save which at the moment I have no confidence in Burge to do so.