The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

Sick Boy said:

How would you feel if people were ranting on about migration to her and blaming her grandparents/great grandparents for a lot of the countries problems?

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If we have an influx of immigrants from India post brexit this is bound to happen. All the blame EU migrants cop for housing shortages, stealing jobs, driving down wages etc. will just shift to Indian immigrants while the government continues to fail to address the housing shortage (as successive governments have), fails to address low wages by significantly increasing minimum and living wage, invest correctly in the NHS to reduce waiting times etc.

I know a guy who had a go home note put through his letter box because he had a Polish last name. The fact that he was a third generation Pole, his grandfather was a Polish airman who met a local girl and settled in the UK during WW2 was irrelevant to the idiot who did it, he just had the right surname.

How many Asians will get the same treatment post brexit if there’s an influx of Indian immigrants? There’s certainly people out there willing and uneducated enough to do it.

Astute said:

They say 3 things must be sorted out first. Our exit bill, the rights of EU residents that have come here to live and what will happen with the border in Ireland.

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Correct and I think that's a reasonable stance as if any of those can't be agreed the process fails.

Astute said:

So the exit bill. We will be in the EU until 2019 minimum. The budget was set until 2020. So if we stay until 2020 what bill will there be?

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IMO we agreed funding until 2020, if we were going to have a referendum and potentially leave then the point at which the budget was being prepared was the time to bring that up. Once we had agreed to the budget we have a duty to pay what we have agreed.

Astute said:

Then you have the EIB. They have now said that we have to pay towards projects for years to come. This includes projects not even started or agreed on. This is a massive amount. So how can this be under funds already agreed? How many tens of billions could this become? And whilst in the EU we are a member. But when we leave the EU we can't be a member anymore. But although we can't be a member they still want the full 16.1% off us. So how many more.dodgy looking loans do you think they can give out in the next 8 years or so? Then you have the piss take. They have stopped most investments in the UK. So we can't be a member, no investments in the UK but we are up for the funds for many years to come.

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The EIB is separate to the EU. We have a 16.1% stake in the EIB. The EIB has €63.3bn in funds but also €469bn in liabilities. If you net that out then we'd have to hand over €65.3bn to leave the EIB. What has been suggested is rather than having to pay out a single payment when we leave we can agree to cover our share of the liabilities if the need arises, ie: existing loans are not repaid. Once those outstanding liabilities cease the balance will be returned to us - assuming the liabilities called up are lower than the funds in hand.

Astute said:

Barnier is now saying that we must pay our 14% cost of running the EU.

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Where has this been stated as the EU's position? Is it not more the case that we have always paid 14% but have had a rebate and that upon leaving our legal right to any rebate will cease. That means that the rebate would not be a consideration during the negotiation of any future payments to be made after leaving.

Astute said:

Immigrants rights? This should be sorted out and signed straight away.

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This should have been sorted before the vote, or at least our intentions made clear so people knew what they were voting on. It seems to me that the issues with this are more on the UK side as we don't seem prepared to offer a similar level of rights those currently in the country have.

Astute said:

The Irish border.

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Again this is something we should have detailed our position on prior to the vote. How can we claim to be leaving and 'taking control of our borders' but then have a free for all between the ROI and NI? But put in a hard border and you create all sorts of problems. Just shows how badly things were thought through. But again this is more on the UK to propose a solution than the EU as it is us who desire to take control.

Astute said:

I don't trust any political party to change how many houses are being built. The government will be either Labour or the Tories. They have done nothing about the situation.

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That's not down to the EU, that's under our control already. The numbers coming in to the country are unlikely to drop. As we've already seen with India counties will seek to make it easier for people to settle in the UK as part of any trade agreements we negotiate.

Astute said:

Immigrants don't come here to live. We don't have homeless people on the streets. House prices are cheap in some areas. Properties start at about 40k in some areas. You can get a 6 bed house for just over 100k in some areas. Skilled wages are high. Crime is low.

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Hard to comment on this as you seem to be saying that in Cumbria the NHS hasn't been impacted by austerity cuts and runs more efficiently than anywhere else, there is a wealth of highly paid jobs and housing is plentiful and cheap meaning nobody is homeless.

If that is the case I'm not sure why anyone there would be unhappy and voting to change things!

If that is the case it certainly warrants much closer inspection to see what is so different there to every other part of the country. Looking at the figures its certainly not down to a lack of immigrants in the area.

'Spain to prepare exclusive aviation deal with UK to ensure British tourists keep arriving post-Brexit'

Spain to prepare exclusive aviation deal with UK to ensure British tourists keep arriving post-Brexit | Olive Press News Spain

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

'Spain to prepare exclusive aviation deal with UK to ensure British tourists keep arriving post-Brexit'

Spain to prepare exclusive aviation deal with UK to ensure British tourists keep arriving post-Brexit | Olive Press News Spain

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I think that’s the point isn’t it. No deal isn’t really a reality because if we did have a no deal that means a no deal for the EU also which many people don’t recognise. Just like how the EU countries are split on these negotiations and not just our government. Again never mentioned on here.

In effect you have separate deals anyway like this one. Btw I don’t think it will get to this as the article suggests i believe we will have a mutually beneficial deal. I don’t see another outcome.

Bit concerning if a member of the EU is concerned about no deal being in place to the extent they are putting their own deal forward. If that's happening with aviation, which is one of the most high profile, should we be worried about all the other agencies we have to replace?

Here’s a thought. When going to the EU post brexit presumably we’ll no longer be able to use the multiple desks at passport control for EU passport holders we’ll have to join the queue for the couple of desks for non EU passport holders.

That could be fun in peak season.

Sick Boy said:

How would you feel if people were ranting on about migration to her and blaming her grandparents/great grandparents for a lot of the countries problems?

Fair play to you though, I had an Indian girlfriend when I was 14 (18years ago) and took quite a bit of abuse from white people for it, even got attacked by some neo Nazis. One time a group of Asian lads asked me if she was my girlfriend, instead of getting the anticipated abuse, they said how happy they are that we were a mixed couple.

Luckily things have (mostly) changed for the better now.

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L

Sick Boy said:

How would you feel if people were ranting on about migration to her and blaming her grandparents/great grandparents for a lot of the countries problems?

Fair play to you though, I had an Indian girlfriend when I was 14 (18years ago) and took quite a bit of abuse from white people for it, even got attacked by some neo Nazis. One time a group of Asian lads asked me if she was my girlfriend, instead of getting the anticipated abuse, they said how happy they are that we were a mixed couple.

Luckily things have (mostly) changed for the better now.

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She used to hear it all the time. People just thought she had a good sun tan. Used to watch them squirm when she told them. Have had to give a couple of slaps out though.

clint van damme said:

I'm using it to parody people who moan about people coming here. You know as well as I do that swapping white immigrants for non white immigrants is going to have certain sections of our country going mental.
Like I say, if that's what it takes to tap into a market of a billion people then I've no problem and it's not like the Indians that are already here haven't contributed, they've probably contributed more than most.

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You can say what you like. Parody or whatever. It is even worse if you knew.

skybluetony176 said:

Here’s a thought. When going to the EU post brexit presumably we’ll no longer be able to use the multiple desks at passport control for EU passport holders we’ll have to join the queue for the couple of desks for non EU passport holders.

That could be fun in peak season.

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Desperate measures now.

All desks will be open to all.

Kingokings204 said:

I think that’s the point isn’t it. No deal isn’t really a reality because if we did have a no deal that means a no deal for the EU also which many people don’t recognise. Just like how the EU countries are split on these negotiations and not just our government. Again never mentioned on here.

In effect you have separate deals anyway like this one. Btw I don’t think it will get to this as the article suggests i believe we will have a mutually beneficial deal. I don’t see another outcome.

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How split are they? He just said he fully supports Barnier.

We are likely to be having a two year transition period to sort these Brexit problems out. But, it is really difficult because of flight plans in advance. All unnecessary.

Another example of how the EU had made life easier.

Astute said:

You can say what you like. Parody or whatever. It is even worse if you knew.

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No offence meant, though I do have a mate of Pakistani descent who contradicts people who call him black and tells them he's brown!
I'll stick to Asian or Indian in future.

Astute said:

Desperate measures now.

All desks will be open to all.

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I thought we were controlling our borders? Why do we have extra checks for non EU citizens at the moment? Will the EU citizens now be treated e.g. the same as, say, US citizens are at the moment?

Kingokings204 said:

No deal isn’t really a reality because if we did have a no deal that means a no deal for the EU also which many people don’t recognise.

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That's what we were told about the Brexit negotiations. They need us more than we need them so we'll be in the driving seat. Doesn't really seem to be playing out like that though.

Kingokings204 said:

In effect you have separate deals anyway like this one.

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If only it were that simple. Think it through. Aviation is one of hundreds of areas where we will need a new deal. Currently we are part of the European Common Aviation Area. That means we are free to fly and sell tickets with the ECAA. It is also via the ECAA that we get access to other countries, the US and Canada for example.

If we're not in the ECAA its not just a case of putting deals in place with individual counties. There's issues around what countries you fly over, stopping in one country before going to another, passenger rights and a whole host of things. And if not in the ECAA its likely that rather than an open skies agreement we would be restricted to a certain number of pre-agreed routes and flights.

So for just one area we have to get our own agency up and running, with the associated costs. Then we need to negotiate with each country, including non-EU countries, over what rights we have. Of course one of the first questions we'll be asked is how we will demonstrate our airlines operate safely. Currently we do that via the European Aviation Safety Agency but we'll no longer be in that so we'll have to set up our own agency for that as well and every other country will have to agree that it is of an acceptable standard. We might also be asked how we plan to manage air traffic. Currently we do that via Single European Sky Air Traffic Management but we'll longer be part of that so its another agency we'll need to setup.

That one example shows how something relatively simple, like other countries agreeing we can still fly tourists into their country, quickly escalates. Now replicate that across every European agency we use and think that we've got 14 months to get this all up and running.

martcov said:

How split are they? He just said he fully supports Barnier.

We are likely to be having a two year transition period to sort these Brexit problems out. But, it is really difficult because of flight plans in advance. All unnecessary.

Another example of how the EU had made life easier.

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Made it easier for terrorists to cross borders, yes.

chiefdave said:

That's what we were told about the Brexit negotiations. They need us more than we need them so we'll be in the driving seat. Doesn't really seem to be playing out like that though.

If only it were that simple. Think it through. Aviation is one of hundreds of areas where we will need a new deal. Currently we are part of the European Common Aviation Area. That means we are free to fly and sell tickets with the ECAA. It is also via the ECAA that we get access to other countries, the US and Canada for example.

If we're not in the ECAA its not just a case of putting deals in place with individual counties. There's issues around what countries you fly over, stopping in one country before going to another, passenger rights and a whole host of things. And if not in the ECAA its likely that rather than an open skies agreement we would be restricted to a certain number of pre-agreed routes and flights.

So for just one area we have to get our own agency up and running, with the associated costs. Then we need to negotiate with each country, including non-EU countries, over what rights we have. Of course one of the first questions we'll be asked is how we will demonstrate our airlines operate safely. Currently we do that via the European Aviation Safety Agency but we'll no longer be in that so we'll have to set up our own agency for that as well and every other country will have to agree that it is of an acceptable standard. We might also be asked how we plan to manage air traffic. Currently we do that via Single European Sky Air Traffic Management but we'll longer be part of that so its another agency we'll need to setup.

That one example shows how something relatively simple, like other countries agreeing we can still fly tourists into their country, quickly escalates. Now replicate that across every European agency we use and think that we've got 14 months to get this all up and running.

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Saw this post which I assume is right.. and it is similar to what you are saying:

We still have bilateral agreements with many countries in the EU. UK airlines (ie Easyjet) and Dutch airlines (ie KLM assuming it still counts as Dutch following the Merger with Air France) will still be able to fly London-Amsterdam because of the historic bilateral agreements. What will not be allowed without Open Skies is Ryanair, an Irish Airline being able to fly the route. This is why airlines are setting up both UK and EU subsidiaries to prepare for the risk of loosing UK participation in open skies. Ryanair will set up Ryanair (UK) Ltd to fly its UK-EU and UK-UK routes and EasyJet will set up EasyJet (Austria) to fly its EU-EU routes.

skybluetony176 said:

Here’s a thought. When going to the EU post brexit presumably we’ll no longer be able to use the multiple desks at passport control for EU passport holders we’ll have to join the queue for the couple of desks for non EU passport holders.

That could be fun in peak season.

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Here's a thought.

If you actually did really travel, you would know that in a huge majority of European airports, the nonEU desks are nearly always that ones that have literally no people queuing up to them (unless a rogue flight comes in from Islamabad or something).

If anything, we'll get through security more efficiently if what you're saying is to be true.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Made it easier for terrorists to cross borders, yes.

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So, millions of people being able to travel at competitive rates because of „open skies“ should be stopped because terrorists also travel between countries?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Here's a thought.

If you actually did really travel, you would know that in a huge majority of European airports, the nonEU desks are nearly always that ones that have literally no people queuing up to them (unless a rogue flight comes in from Islamabad or something).

If anything, we'll get through security more efficiently if what you're saying is to be true.

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Depending of course on if there extra controls for non EU citizens during the U.K. holiday season. They won’t be empty in Spain at peak times.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Here's a thought.

If you actually did really travel, you would know that in a huge majority of European airports, the nonEU desks are nearly always that ones that have literally no people queuing up to them (unless a rogue flight comes in from Islamabad or something).

If anything, we'll get through security more efficiently if what you're saying is to be true.

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How is that going to work? You're going to have a passport from a 3rd country. Enjoy your wait.

It's strange that whenever you come back to London there is usually a long queue at non EU desks.

chiefdave said:

Bit concerning if a member of the EU is concerned about no deal being in place to the extent they are putting their own deal forward. If that's happening with aviation, which is one of the most high profile, should we be worried about all the other agencies we have to replace?

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No, it actually illustrates that not every European country 'doesn't want us anymore' and proves they haven't turned their back on us.

Sometimes I feel people will try and find negativity in anything. That's what is going make Brexit even harder.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

No, it actually illustrates that not every European country 'doesn't want us anymore' and proves they haven't turned their back on us.

Sometimes I feel people will try and find negativity in anything. That's what is going make Brexit even harder.

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Can't agree.
The public can have whatever opinions they want. They can be depressingly pessimistic or wildly optimistic and it won't make a jot of difference. It's what the politicians do that count.
I am still waiting for someone to give me reasons to be optimistic but no one can seem to come up with any that stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

Sick Boy said:

How is that going to work? You're going to have a passport from a 3rd country. Enjoy your wait.

It's strange that whenever you come back to London there is usually a long queue at non EU desks.

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Is there? Last flight I did was chaos - the auto machine queue was rammed and I went through the non EU desk which was much quicker.
Does anyone actually travel who makes this up? I go regularly through many countries and with one exception have never had issues

Sick Boy said:

How is that going to work? You're going to have a passport from a 3rd country. Enjoy your wait.

It's strange that whenever you come back to London there is usually a long queue at non EU desks.

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Here's what's really going to happen:

My passport will stay exactly the same, and have the exact same powers as it did before.

Grendel said:

Is there? Last flight I did was chaos - the auto machine queue was rammed and I went through the non EU desk which was much quicker.
Does anyone actually travel who makes this up? I go regularly through many countries and with one exception have never had issues

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Exactly.

People are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it is embarrasing.

Some on here could be given a million pound grant from the government to spend on what they want as a result of brexit, and they'd still complain it wasn't 2 million.

clint van damme said:

Can't agree.
The public can have whatever opinions they want. They can be depressingly pessimistic or wildly optimistic and it won't make a jot of difference. It's what the politicians do that count.
I am still waiting for someone to give me reasons to be optimistic but no one can seem to come up with any that stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

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I think it does make a difference to be honest.

I just gave an example too, Spain needs our tourism.

However it was ripped apart by people who don't want to listen to any good news. They almost get triggered by it!

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Here's what's really going to happen:

My passport will stay exactly the same, and have the exact same powers as it did before.

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There will still be the same number of staff on, they'll simply open the desks that get the queues through in the quickest way if one channel gets overloaded.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

I think it does make a difference to be honest.

I just gave an example too, Spain needs our tourism.

However it was ripped apart by people who don't want to listen to any good news. They almost get triggered by it!

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This week, among other things, we have had the lowest growth forecasts of any modern budget, the worse of the G7 countries.
We have seen the start of companies leaving the UK with the two European agencies going.
We have lost our place on ICJ.
We have been told that it will take until 2030 to reduce the deficit and return wages to their pre crash level.

Countering that with Spain needs tourism doesn't really negate all that for me.

Astute said:

Desperate measures now.

All desks will be open to all.

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You know that how?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Exactly.

People are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it is embarrasing.

Some on here could be given a million pound grant from the government to spend on what they want as a result of brexit, and they'd still complain it wasn't 2 million.

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I’ll take you or the government up on that....

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Here's a thought.

If you actually did really travel, you would know that in a huge majority of European airports, the nonEU desks are nearly always that ones that have literally no people queuing up to them (unless a rogue flight comes in from Islamabad or something).

If anything, we'll get through security more efficiently if what you're saying is to be true.

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Yes I’m aware of that. But they’ve never had to cope with 12 million non EU brits before as they’ve always gone to the EU desks.

The scenario is that 3 plane loads of Germans arrive at the same time as 3 plane loads of Brits. The Germans go to the multiple desks for EU passport holders while the 3 plane loads of Brits have to form two orderly queues at the two desks for non EU.

Doesn’t take a genius to understand that the Germans are going to be processed and putting beach towels on sun beds before the Brits. Probably why you didn’t get it.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

I think it does make a difference to be honest.

I just gave an example too, Spain needs our tourism.

However it was ripped apart by people who don't want to listen to any good news. They almost get triggered by it!

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What is the good news? Some countries have bilateral agreements apart from open skies. There will be less competition from airlines from countries not covered by these bilateral arrangements. Probably meaning higher prices.

skybluetony176 said:

Yes I’m aware of that. But they’ve never had to cope with 12 million non EU brits before as they’ve always gone to the EU desks.

The scenario is that 3 plane loads of Germans arrive at the same time as 3 plane loads of Brits. The Germans go to the multiple desks for EU passport holders while the 3 plane loads of Brits have to form two orderly queues at the two desks for non EU.

Doesn’t take a genius to understand that the Germans are going to be processed and putting beach towels on sun beds before the Brits. Probably why you didn’t get it.

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Which is one reason why I am trying to get an EU passport.

skybluetony176 said:

Yes I’m aware of that. But they’ve never had to cope with 12 million non EU brits before as they’ve always gone to the EU desks.

The scenario is that 3 plane loads of Germans arrive at the same time as 3 plane loads of Brits. The Germans go to the multiple desks for EU passport holders while the 3 plane loads of Brits have to form two orderly queues at the two desks for non EU.

Doesn’t take a genius to understand that the Germans are going to be processed and putting beach towels on sun beds before the Brits. Probably why you didn’t get it.

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This discussion is so pathetic.

martcov said:

So, millions of people being able to travel at competitive rates because of „open skies“ should be stopped because terrorists also travel between countries?

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martcov said:

Depending of course on if there extra controls for non EU citizens during the U.K. holiday season. They won’t be empty in Spain at peak times.

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No, in that circumstance I was talking about open borders, but you know that.

Spain in peak season is absolutely rammed with EU tourists, significantly less nonEU ones. Come on, I know which queue I would prefer to be in!

clint van damme said:

This week, among other things, we have had the lowest growth forecasts of any modern budget, the worse of the G7 countries.
We have seen the start of companies leaving the UK with the two European agencies going.
We have lost our place on ICJ.
We have been told that it will take until 2030 to reduce the deficit and return wages to their pre crash level.

Countering that with Spain needs tourism doesn't really negate all that for me.

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No, but you said there were absolutely no positives, and I just gave you one.

If you take the view that it is going to start off badly and will slowly build from there, anything else comes in as a bonus.

I am under no illusion that this is going to be difficult, but it is not 100% doom and gloom, all of the time. It will get better over time and I believe we will be better off eventually...