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Legia Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
DannyThomas_1981 said:
I don't think it's so black and white Faz. Doyle's set piece/corner delivery has been top notch this season as an example. Nowhere near a failure. But I'm not sure he should be guaranteed 90 minutes every week.

I'd love to see a midfield of Jones-Kelly-Bayliss-Thomas once Jones and Kelly are back to full fitness. I do see Doyle as a fantastic option for certain games and also for closing games out. He could also play a defensive shield role in a different formation. But in a 4-4-2 I'd personally like to see a more dynamic midfield.

Completely different point it's fantastic these days to hear the support for Burgey at the Ricoh. Lots on here could see his quality over the last couple of seasons and that most of the criticism was misplaced. Some (usual suspects) couldn't. Burgey's becoming a bit of a cult hero and it's highly deserved.
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What have you seen in Kelly that would make our midfield more 'dynamic' if he replaced Doyle? I've seen marks as high as 8 for Kelly's performance yesterday, but other than being an improvement on a very poor Ogogo, I just don't see he did anything other than sit too deep in midfield playing safe none threatening passes, and helped ensure that there was too big a gap between our midfield and forwards when we were chasing the game. This repeated a problem we also had in the first half of last season when he was a regular, and when we also struggled to break teams down once we went behind. It speaks volumes for Doyle, that he was picking up the pieces in their box for the equaliser, when Kelly would have been sat in front of the back 4 by the half way line in the same circumstances. If and when Kelly replaces Doyle he needs to be the player we saw in the play offs, and not the 'negative' player he was for much of the season up to then. Kelly was a regular in midfield for Orient when they meekly slipped out of the league, and I just don't see him as a 'dynamic' alternative to Doyle, nor do I understand the clamour to change things when the team are on such a good run.
 
Adge

Adge

Well-Known Member
Burge 7 Good handling/decision making in general and decent save at the end.
Thompson 6 Defensively sound but long ball hoofs especially first half meant we didn’t maintain possession. Some going over the top about his “great” game. It was ok.
Brown 7 Now settling into the team and confidence is starting to show.
Davies 5 One of the poorest games he’s had. Mistake in the first half when they hit the bar and didn’t cover himself in glory all afternoon.
Willis 8 Won most headers and got Davies out of trouble on more than one occasion while covering with his pace. A close second for man of the match.
Thomas 8 A clear man of the match. Great approach play and always dangerous but as we know the final ball can be lacking and again on occasions yesterday he chose the wrong option. Hopefully that will come.
Hiwula 5 Awful miss and didn’t really recover from it.
Ogogo 5 Another opportunity for him to come to the party but he didn’t even ring the door bell.
Doyle 6 Gets an extra point for the goal-up until then it was a 5.
Chaplin 5 One or 2 good bits of link up play but not much else-surprised he lasted so long before going off.
JCH Worked hard and won a few headers-not a great day for the strikers but he was the better of the 2 and at least put himself about.

Subs Jones 6 Had an impact and a hand in the goal.

Kelly 7 Calm on the ball and picked out some good forward passes that got us going when he came on-some much added impetus.

A draw was a fair result in the end and I was happy with a point and the old adage of “if you don’t play well get something out of the game” which was very much the case yesterday.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Ooh Ah said:
Some biased stuff on here. Hiwula, poor game, missed a sitter - previous games massive contribution. Davies bullied all game, poor for the goal and gifted them 1st half chance they wasted - previous games massive contribution. Hiwula slated, Davies barely any comment.

Doyle and Ogogo as Robins explained, put together out of need so unbalanced central midfield. Doyle regularly gave the ball away, his pass led to goal. Ogogo solid, one awful pass, barely played since injury. With games he could potentially be a mobile Doyle. Doyle mostly get's higher marks. Odd
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Agree with this and Doyle, even on a poor day never goes missing, keeps looking for the ball etc etc. One 60 yard chase back late in the game was unbelievable, especially for a 37 year old. Not his best game but still there to pop in the equaliser. Also special mention to Burge. I’d be surprised if there’s been many better keepers in the league this season, really stepped up this year...impressive !
 
ceetee

ceetee

Well-Known Member
That chase back by Doyle was very impressive, but I still don't like him taking corners, because when things go wrong he's 60 yards out of position.
 
Esoterica

Esoterica

Well-Known Member
Legia Sky Blue said:
What have you seen in Kelly that would make our midfield more 'dynamic' if he replaced Doyle? I've seen marks as high as 8 for Kelly's performance yesterday, but other than being an improvement on a very poor Ogogo, I just don't see he did anything other than sit too deep in midfield playing safe none threatening passes, and helped ensure that there was too big a gap between our midfield and forwards when we were chasing the game. This repeated a problem we also had in the first half of last season when he was a regular, and when we also struggled to break teams down once we went behind. It speaks volumes for Doyle, that he was picking up the pieces in their box for the equaliser, when Kelly would have been sat in front of the back 4 by the half way line in the same circumstances. If and when Kelly replaces Doyle he needs to be the player we saw in the play offs, and not the 'negative' player he was for much of the season up to then. Kelly was a regular in midfield for Orient when they meekly slipped out of the league, and I just don't see him as a 'dynamic' alternative to Doyle, nor do I understand the clamour to change things when the team are on such a good run.
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The Kelly and Leyton Orient stuff is bullshit. There was nothing meek about their relegation, their owner had absolutely destroyed them. They had 5 managers, a winding up petition, players weren't paid from March onwards, an owner who sold all their highest earners and forced the manager to play the youth team in place of players who wouldn't leave. Their relegation had nothing to do with him.
 
letsallsingtogether

letsallsingtogether

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
someone tweeted the passing stats from division 1 the other day, Doyle had attempted more passes than any other player in the division and his completion rate was 80% which was one of the highest completion rates.
Obviously that will have dropped a bit after yesterday!
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Exactly he makes more passes then anyone else, therefore he has more that go astray.
A player does 10 passes in a game 4 go astray no one really notices another does 40 passes and 16 go astray everyone starts crying they forget the ones that reached their target.
 
S

Super Graham Withey

Well-Known Member
I just have a feeling that Doyle may now be struggling with fitness given his age. Dominant in the first half v both Doncaster and Accrington, always all on and demanding the ball, even if at times his distribution wasn't great. Much more subdued and less influential in the second half of both games, even though he got the goal yesterday. No criticism this though of Doyle, who has been magnificent for us since returning to the club.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
Maybe we need to think in terms of giving him 60-65 mins or so and then replace him.

He only ever seems to be subbed if he's got a knock, but sometimes he does look leggy and tired.
 
Londonccfcfan

Londonccfcfan

Well-Known Member
Kelly was very purposefull when he came on. Had a positive influence on the game, given Robins food for thought ! putting lots of pressure on Doyle/Ogogu

Would love to see him and Bayliss in the middle.

Bumped into Hyam outside the Ricoh after the game I said to him unlucky you cant a get a start but keep your head up and working hard blah blah blah, His Girlfriend said Robins hasn't got a clue and Hyam should have played! I said say to her you cant say about him and that in him we trust! Hyam kept quite snapped a pic of him and my boy and he moved on! his time will come!
 
Londonccfcfan

Londonccfcfan

Well-Known Member
Super Graham Withey said:
I just have a feeling that Doyle may now be struggling with fitness given his age. Dominant in the first half v both Doncaster and Accrington, always all on and demanding the ball, even if at times his distribution wasn't great. Much more subdued and less influential in the second half of both games, even though he got the goal yesterday. No criticism this though of Doyle, who has been magnificent for us since returning to the club.
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He has been great for us as a leader on the pitch (no doubt about that), but im afraid his legs are gone! the end is nigh!
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
Burge 7
Thompson 6.5
Davies 6
Willis 7
Brown 6.5
Thomas 7
Doyle 6
Ogogo 5
Hiwula 5
Chaplin 5
Clarke Harris 6

Kelly 6
Jones 4

Difficult afternoon against a battling organised side who are a fine balance between physically and tactically good who played some nice football. Felt the keeper for Accrington was quality with the few chances we offered him as was the big No 9. John Coleman is a real credit to the club with what he’s achieved at Accrington on a likely very small budget.

Back to the game, few stand out performers Hiwula wasn’t on the money like we’d seen glimpses of. Shame his header wasn’t met perfectly in the first half. Tom Davies had a difficult afternoon with the no 9 and made a few errors, Thompson had a very good first half but I felt the second half the introduction of Grimmer would of gave us a greater threat. Liam Kelly had i positive impact on the game too.



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S

SkyBlueCRJ

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Burge 7
Thompson 6.5
Davies 6
Willis 7
Brown 6.5
Thomas 7
Doyle 6
Ogogo 5
Hiwula 5
Chaplin 5
Clarke Harris 6

Kelly 6
Jones 4

Difficult afternoon against a battling organised side who are a fine balance between physically and tactically good who played some nice football. Felt the keeper for Accrington was quality with the few chances we offered him as was the big No 9. John Coleman is a real credit to the club with what he’s achieved at Accrington on a likely very small budget.

Back to the game, few stand out performers Hiwula wasn’t on the money like we’d seen glimpses of. Shame his header wasn’t met perfectly in the first half. Tom Davies had a difficult afternoon with the no 9 and made a few errors, Thompson had a very good first half but I felt the second half the introduction of Grimmer would of gave us a greater threat. Liam Kelly had i positive impact on the game too.



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You have Jones down as a 4 and Hiwula down as a 5.....right
 
L

Legia Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Burge - 7
Thompson - 6.5
Willis - 7
Daves - 6
Brown - 6.5
Hiwula - 4
Ogogo - 5
Doyle - 6
Thomas - 7
Chaplin - 6
JCH - 6
Subs - Jones 5.5, Kelly 5.5
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
JamesCCFC said:
You have Jones down as a 4 and Hiwula down as a 5.....right
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Thought Hiwulas movement looked better when put up top creating more space in front of the Accrington back 4. JJ couldn’t get in the game, failed to get most/enough the crosses in the box too


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Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Burge 7
Thompson 6.5
Davies 6
Willis 7
Brown 6.5
Thomas 7
Doyle 6
Ogogo 5
Hiwula 5
Chaplin 5
Clarke Harris 6

Kelly 6
Jones 4

Difficult afternoon against a battling organised side who are a fine balance between physically and tactically good who played some nice football. Felt the keeper for Accrington was quality with the few chances we offered him as was the big No 9. John Coleman is a real credit to the club with what he’s achieved at Accrington on a likely very small budget.

Back to the game, few stand out performers Hiwula wasn’t on the money like we’d seen glimpses of. Shame his header wasn’t met perfectly in the first half. Tom Davies had a difficult afternoon with the no 9 and made a few errors, Thompson had a very good first half but I felt the second half the introduction of Grimmer would of gave us a greater threat. Liam Kelly had i positive impact on the game too.



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Those scores are way too low. You need to have a word with your expectations
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Those scores are way too low. You need to have a word with your expectations
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Really? Personally think I’m quite level headed with my expectations, players abilities and where we’re at as a club.

I didn’t see many “7” performances yesterday, a lot of middle of the road performances yes worthy of a 6


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Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Really? Personally think I’m quite level headed with my expectations, players abilities and where we’re at as a club.

I didn’t see many “7” performances yesterday, a lot of middle of the road performances yes worthy of a 6


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Reasonable answer!!
 
DannyThomas_1981

DannyThomas_1981

Well-Known Member
Skybluefaz said:
My fear is he becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Like the first time around there seems to be this notion that we need more of a footballer in there. Then when he's gone it'll be "oh we need a Doyle type". I hoped Ogogo would be that progression, however I'm not seeing it with him. It could be the big target in January in fact to go out and get this player who might be his successor. Likely we'll have to dig deep financially to get the right player.
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I agree Faz with most of this. I just think that Kelly will be the successor.
 
DannyThomas_1981

DannyThomas_1981

Well-Known Member
Legia Sky Blue said:
What have you seen in Kelly that would make our midfield more 'dynamic' if he replaced Doyle? I've seen marks as high as 8 for Kelly's performance yesterday, but other than being an improvement on a very poor Ogogo, I just don't see he did anything other than sit too deep in midfield playing safe none threatening passes, and helped ensure that there was too big a gap between our midfield and forwards when we were chasing the game. This repeated a problem we also had in the first half of last season when he was a regular, and when we also struggled to break teams down once we went behind. It speaks volumes for Doyle, that he was picking up the pieces in their box for the equaliser, when Kelly would have been sat in front of the back 4 by the half way line in the same circumstances. If and when Kelly replaces Doyle he needs to be the player we saw in the play offs, and not the 'negative' player he was for much of the season up to then. Kelly was a regular in midfield for Orient when they meekly slipped out of the league, and I just don't see him as a 'dynamic' alternative to Doyle, nor do I understand the clamour to change things when the team are on such a good run.
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Agreed completely that we need to see Kelly in second half of last season form. I did see Kelly surging forward with the ball yesterday indicating he's getting back there.
 
DannyThomas_1981

DannyThomas_1981

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Thought Hiwulas movement looked better when put up top creating more space in front of the Accrington back 4. JJ couldn’t get in the game, failed to get most/enough the crosses in the box too


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Different opinions Steve. My view is that Jones had a positive impact and did more in 20 minutes that Hiwula did in 90. He certainly gave Accrington a different problem. JJ is going to a key player for us this season.
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Reasonable answer!!
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Thanks.
Having looked at our ratings were not poles apart. You rated Thompson and Chaplin far greater being the notable difference and 4 others 1 point more. I guess it’s how we rate and look at individuals performances. I posted this in reply on the next 7 games thread.... I think it’s a fair assessment to how some may score. My own opinion, not necessarily right obviously.

...........it really all depends on each individual doing the rating’s mindset to what they like from a player and the position and what they perceive the roll to be. (If they was a manager)

You could say that....Strikers you always want more from especially if they’ve missed chances deemed should of been taken (JCH/Biamou for example ) unless they get the winner, a brace or a hat trick they will generally score high.

Your keeper (Burge/O’Brien) could of always done better potentially, unless he keeps a clean sheet say. Midfielders people most like to see striding over the halfway line with the ball looking for a killer pass constantly ticking play over (Doyle/Bayliss is a good barometer for this) so this only leaves your defenders who you can breakdown between the central defensive pairing and your full backs.

Your fullbacks (Grimmer/Brown) in some eyes are turned inside out too much then beaten by there man and the finger points at allowing the cross into the box, and want to see some service given into the box in a attacking intent (Sterling) so leaves your central pairing (Willis/Davies) looking solid and scoring high when results are going positive.

Only players it leaves to out score them is your exciting wide players who are hopefully influencing the game (JJ/ Thomas) or a substitute coming on having a impact on the outcome who’s naturally gonna feel the love of the scoring fan and easily pick up a inflated rating for 20/30 mins work.

All of the above tho is immaterial if it’s Andy Turner who scores well if you “ran your socks off”


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S

SkyBlueCRJ

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Thought Hiwulas movement looked better when put up top creating more space in front of the Accrington back 4. JJ couldn’t get in the game, failed to get most/enough the crosses in the box too


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His movement was better but still ineffectual. Hiwula was at fault in the lead up to the goal, missed and absolute sitter in the first half and went anonymous for the majority of the game. Jones on the other hand produced a few nice touches, produced a few decent flick ons and managed to beat his man twice, with one of those times leading to Doyle’s tap in. So, all in all not sure how Hiwula warrants a higher rating?
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
DannyThomas_1981 said:
Different opinions Steve. My view is that Jones had a positive impact and did more in 20 minutes that Hiwula did in 90. He certainly gave Accrington a different problem. JJ is going to a key player for us this season.
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Fair points, we all see things differently I suppose and nothing wrong in that. Was you sat in the west stand and view his performance from a closer view than mine?

I’m hopeful in the second half of the season JJ will be a greater player for us as his return improves


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DannyThomas_1981

DannyThomas_1981

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
Fair points, we all see things differently I suppose and nothing wrong in that. Was you sat in the west stand and view his performance from a closer view than mine?

I’m hopeful in the second half of the season JJ will be a greater player for us as his return improves


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I was in the West Stand funnily enough! And to be fair Steve I'm completely biased as JJ is my favourite player - I remember JJ from the start of last season and he was sensational.

The encouraging thing is that over the past two weeks indications are that JJ still has that pace - and as his match fitness and form returns the left wing and right wing combination of Jones and Thomas is going to be very exciting (if Robins is brave enough to go on the attack from the start of games).
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
JamesCCFC said:
His movement was better but still ineffectual. Hiwula was at fault in the lead up to the goal, missed and absolute sitter in the first half and went anonymous for the majority of the game. Jones on the other hand produced a few nice touches, produced a few decent flick ons and managed to beat his man twice, with one of those times leading to Doyle’s tap in. So, all in all not sure how Hiwula warrants a higher rating?
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It’s all opinions I guess, personally I’d of just liked a but more from him over the 20mins. Maybe I was a bit critical as he did have a influence in the goal.

DannyThomas_1981 said:
I was in the West Stand funnily enough! And to be fair Steve I'm completely biased as JJ is my favourite player - I remember JJ from the start of last season and he was sensational.

The encouraging thing is that over the past two weeks indications are that JJ still has that pace - and as his match fitness and form returns the left wing and right wing combination of Jones and Thomas is going to be very exciting (if Robins is brave enough to go on the attack from the start of games).
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You had the better view then ha ha.
Yes I’d like to see both interchanging flanks, that could be deadly. Could also be catastrophic in the same way as JJ isn’t the best at tracking back helping the full back.




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Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Those scores are way too low. You need to have a word with your expectations
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I don’t get the 4 for Jones but pretty accurate other then that
 
steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
The telegraph are more interesting in comparison to a few having just read them.

Burge 7
Thompson 7
Davies 5.5
Willis 5.5
Brown 5.5
Thomas 6.5
Doyle 6
Ogogo 6
Hiwula 5.5
Chaplin 6
Clarke Harris 5.5

Jones 6
Kelly 5


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steve82

steve82

Well-Known Member
Skybluefaz said:
My fear is he becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Like the first time around there seems to be this notion that we need more of a footballer in there. Then when he's gone it'll be "oh we need a Doyle type". I hoped Ogogo would be that progression, however I'm not seeing it with him. It could be the big target in January in fact to go out and get this player who might be his successor. Likely we'll have to dig deep financially to get the right player.
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Exeter’s Hiram Boateng would be top of my list. I’d raid Exeter if I’m honest.


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ceetee

ceetee

Well-Known Member
letsallsingtogether said:
Yes but our corners are getting past the first defender something we have struggled to do for years.
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I'm not arguing about the quality of corners, which i agree have improved. That is not my point.
We can't and don't win every ball and there is always a risk of a counter attack., for which I would prefer Doyle to be in position.
Someone less defensive should be trained up to take corners. I played at the lowest level of football and wasn't much good but I could take a corner. It isn't difficult
 
better days

better days

Well-Known Member
Esoterica said:
The Kelly and Leyton Orient stuff is bullshit. There was nothing meek about their relegation, their owner had absolutely destroyed them. They had 5 managers, a winding up petition, players weren't paid from March onwards, an owner who sold all their highest earners and forced the manager to play the youth team in place of players who wouldn't leave. Their relegation had nothing to do with him.
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And the lunatic physically attacked his assistant manager, kicking him hard up the backside on the pitch after a home defeat
 
S

SkyBlueCRJ

Well-Known Member
steve82 said:
It’s all opinions I guess, personally I’d of just liked a but more from him over the 20mins. Maybe I was a bit critical as he did have a influence in the goal.

I was also in the west stand so maybe it was a case that I got a better view also. Unfortunately I think it’ll be a while before we see the same old JJ again. Physically and probably equally if not more importantly psychologically especially after recovery, ACL injuries have a pretty devastating effect on both.



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