5 At The Back Needs To Go (1 Viewer)

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

I’m convinced that playing 5 at the back isn’t helping us win games and I think it’s about time Robins changed his tack with our formation. Our gameplay and play style in general is so boring, so predictable, so lacklustre and has so few options in the final third that I think it’s time for a formation change. I think when you set up as 5 at the back you’re almost saying to the opposition we’re scared to come at you as we’re almost putting more defensive options on the pitch than attacking options. I think 5 works when you have wingers that can cross well but half the time we don’t ever seem to beat the first man. It’s no wonder we’re getting so many draws when our team is set up so defensively.

After having looked at the table and the formations that other championship teams play I’ve got some interesting data that shows that 5 at the back doesn’t work well (in general), there are always exceptions to the rule but I’m now convinced more than ever we need to move on from 5 at the back.

In the following list I’ve put a tick for teams that play some sort of 4 at the back formation and a cross for teams that play some sort of 5 at the back or wingback formation. The data is over the last 4-5 games so isn’t complete but it took a while to get that much data so feel free if you wish to dig deeper.

Leicester
Ipswich
Preston
Hull
Sunderland
Leeds yes
Cardiff
Norwich
Bristol
Birmingham
Milwall
Plymouth
West Brom
Blackburn
Southampton
Watford
Huddersfield
Coventry
QPR
Stoke
Swansea
Middlesbrough
Rotherham
Sheffield Wes

So you can see from that list that 5 of the current bottom 7 teams all play with some sort of 5 at the back. Yet 9 out of the current top 10 play with some sort of 4 at the back formation.

This pattern also extends to the premier league, only 4 teams in the Prem play semi-regularly with 5 at the back, these are Luton, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest and Chelsea. Notice a pattern here? They’re all lower half teams.

The best teams in the premier league, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton etc etc, all play with a strict 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Is it any coincidence?

I think Robins is a great manager and great leader for our team but he really should be looking at our performances and thinking why isn’t it working? You can’t keep blaming “gel” or “time” or blaming individual errors, one little headed mistake or free-kick mistake here and there doesn’t mean anything when we play so poorly for such large periods of the game.

It’s time for a change, 5 at the back is dead.
The prosecution rests

fernandopartridge · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
I’m convinced that playing 5 at the back isn’t helping us win games and I think it’s about time Robins changed his tack with our formation. Our gameplay and play style in general is so boring, so predictable, so lacklustre and has so few options in the final third that I think it’s time for a formation change.

After having looked at the table and the formations that other championship teams play I’ve got some interesting data that shows that 5 at the back doesn’t work well (in general), there are always exceptions to the rule but I’m now convinced more than ever we need to move on from 5 at the back.

In the following list I’ve put a tick for teams that play some sort of 4 at the back formation and a cross for teams that play some sort of 5 at the back or wingback formation. The data is over the last 4-5 games so isn’t complete but it took a while to get that much data so feel free if you wish to dig deeper.

Leicester

Ipswich

Preston

Hull

Sunderland

Leeds
yes
Cardiff

Norwich

Bristol

Birmingham

Milwall

Plymouth

West Brom

Blackburn

Southampton

Watford

Huddersfield

Coventry

QPR

Stoke

Swansea

Middlesbrough

Rotherham

Sheffield Wes

So you can see from that list that 5 of the current bottom 7 teams all play with some sort of 5 at the back. Yet 9 out of the current top 10 play with some sort of 4 at the back formation.

This pattern also extends to the premier league, only 4 teams in the Prem play semi-regularly with 5 at the back, these are Luton, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest and Chelsea. Notice a pattern here? They’re all lower half teams.

The best teams in the premier league, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton etc etc, all play with a strict 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Is it any coincidence?

I think Robins is a great manager and great leader for our team but he really should be looking at our performances and thinking why isn’t it working? You can’t keep blaming “gel” or “time” or blaming individual errors, one little headed mistake or free-kick mistake here and there doesn’t mean anything when we play so poorly for such large periods of the game.

It’s time for a change, 5 at the back is dead.
The prosecution rests

It's been successful for us. Did the formation cause the individual errors?

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BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
It's been successful for us. Did the formation cause the individual errors?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

It hasn’t this season, it was only successful when we had capable strikers that could run onto a ball created by a capable midfielder.

And I’m not saying the formation caused individual errors, I’m saying that Robins blames individual errors rather than blaming his tactics.

fernandopartridge · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
It hasn’t this season, it was only successful when we had capable strikers that could run onto a ball created by a capable midfielder.

And I’m not saying the formation caused individual errors, I’m saying that Robins blames individual errors rather than blaming his tactics.

Did the formation cause the individual errors, yes or no?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

ceetee · Sep 27, 2023

Of course he blames individual errors. Rightly or wrongly that deflect from criticism of the set up, selection or any other manager related issues.

shmmeee · Sep 27, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
Did the formation cause the individual errors, yes or no?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Some of them. Players caught between who is picking up between WB and CB for example.

Tge problem for me isn’t so much five at the back, it’s the seven defensive players we play with. Vik allowed us to just sit back and lump it up to him to do something. We don’t have that luxury any more. If we can’t out out a team that can defend with fewer than 70% of the outfielders we’ve got some real questions to answer.

Deity · Sep 27, 2023

Leicester are top and they play 5 at the back but the full backs are inverted when they attack. As per Man City.

Both Man City and Leicester get their width from genuine wide midfielders hugging the Touchline rather than full backs pushing on.

We could try this system if we had two genuine wide men but right now we only have Tats. Even when players return from injury we don’t have attacking width.

My personal concern with the 5 is the rigidity with which we play it. Even if the opposition play one up top we don’t push one of the 3 centre half’s into the midfield we simply carry on with 3 marking 1 striker and then our midfield being over ran by the spare man.

ceetee · Sep 27, 2023

I think we are realising that with Gus and Vic's significant contributions, the actual set up of the team was not so critical

Dimi_Konstantflapalot · Sep 27, 2023

Deity said:
Leicester are top and they play 5 at the back but the full backs are inverted when they attack. As per Man City.

Both Man City and Leicester get their width from genuine wide midfielders hugging the Touchline rather than full backs pushing on.

We could try this system if we had two genuine wide men but right now we only have Tats. Even when players return from injury we don’t have attacking width.

My personal concern with the 5 is the rigidity with which we play it. Even if the opposition play one up top we don’t push one of the 3 centre half’s into the midfield we simply carry on with 3 marking 1 striker and then our midfield being over ran by the spare man.

There was definitely a more concerted effort from Thomas and Binks in the Huddersfield game to drive forward with the ball from the back when space opened up, which it did in the 1st half as they didn’t bother pressing us

We have to be braver with the ball throughout the whole game though, clear trend this season that we lose momentum far too easily and allow the opposition to get on top of us

Tbh I think it’s related to the opposition press and our inability/reluctance to play through it (at times). It means more often than not we end up going long, the ball isn't sticking to the front 2 at the moment which creates big gaps between the lines, which allows the oppo to get on the front foot. Cardiff game was a prime example

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
Did the formation cause the individual errors, yes or no?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Do you ever read anything anyone ever writes? I swear all you do is just make up some gibberish that’s got nothing to do with the topic and then try to argue it in a weird convoluted way that completely adds nothing to do the discussion and helps us in no way at all. We’re trying to look at what’s best for our club, not fucking nit-pick people’s wording, ffs.

And in answer to your irrelevant question, I quote my original post which you clearly failed to read, “I’m not saying the formation caused individual errors”, i.e. the formation didn’t cause individual errors, the reason being is that individual errors are not the fucking issue, there’s always individual errors in any game of football, we don’t create enough, that’s the issue and 5 at the back clearly doesn’t help us create goals.

(Edit: Nothing personal btw, apologies I seemed a bit OTT there, I just get fed up of answering questions that I feel have nothing to do with the topic in hand.)

PVA · Sep 27, 2023

We aren't going to abandon the formation a few games into the season after so much success in recent years and after spending the summer recruiting players for that formation.

For the odd game, or for certain opposition, or in the middle of an injury crisis? Sure, why not. But this is our formation and we are going to stick with it.

I would like to see the box again though when we have the personnel available for it.

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

ceetee said:
I think we are realising that with Gus and Vic's significant contributions, the actual set up of the team was not so critical

Exactly. We could just lump the ball up to Vik somewhat and allow him to do his thing. That clearly doesn’t work anymore because we don’t have a striker with his ability and a midfielder with the ability of Hamer. I know people say we shouldn’t talk about them anymore but I think it’s significant in this case because we’re still playing a system that suited their style of play, that’s not the style of play that suits our current players I feel.

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

PVA said:
We aren't going to abandon the formation a few games into the season after so much success in recent years and after spending the summer recruiting players for that formation.

For the odd game, or for certain opposition, or in the middle of an injury crisis? Sure, why not. But this is our formation and we are going to stick with it.

I would like to see the box again though when we have the personnel available for it.

I agree that we won’t change it this season because Robins has set his stall out with this 5ATB formation unfortunately. It’s worked well in the past but we don’t have the quality of player to carry on this system well any more. I think the players we’ve got would by accident suit a 4-3-3 much better than our current 5-2-1-2.

skyblueelephant76 · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
I’m convinced that playing 5 at the back isn’t helping us win games and I think it’s about time Robins changed his tack with our formation. Our gameplay and play style in general is so boring, so predictable, so lacklustre and has so few options in the final third that I think it’s time for a formation change. I think when you set up as 5 at the back you’re almost saying to the opposition we’re scared to come at you as we’re almost putting more defensive options on the pitch than attacking options. I think 5 works when you have wingers that can cross well but half the time we don’t ever seem to beat the first man. It’s no wonder we’re getting so many draws when our team is set up so defensively.

After having looked at the table and the formations that other championship teams play I’ve got some interesting data that shows that 5 at the back doesn’t work well (in general), there are always exceptions to the rule but I’m now convinced more than ever we need to move on from 5 at the back.

In the following list I’ve put a tick for teams that play some sort of 4 at the back formation and a cross for teams that play some sort of 5 at the back or wingback formation. The data is over the last 4-5 games so isn’t complete but it took a while to get that much data so feel free if you wish to dig deeper.

Leicester
Ipswich
Preston
Hull
Sunderland
Leeds yes
Cardiff
Norwich
Bristol
Birmingham
Milwall
Plymouth
West Brom
Blackburn
Southampton
Watford
Huddersfield
Coventry
QPR
Stoke
Swansea
Middlesbrough
Rotherham
Sheffield Wes

So you can see from that list that 5 of the current bottom 7 teams all play with some sort of 5 at the back. Yet 9 out of the current top 10 play with some sort of 4 at the back formation.

This pattern also extends to the premier league, only 4 teams in the Prem play semi-regularly with 5 at the back, these are Luton, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest and Chelsea. Notice a pattern here? They’re all lower half teams.

The best teams in the premier league, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton etc etc, all play with a strict 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Is it any coincidence?

I think Robins is a great manager and great leader for our team but he really should be looking at our performances and thinking why isn’t it working? You can’t keep blaming “gel” or “time” or blaming individual errors, one little headed mistake or free-kick mistake here and there doesn’t mean anything when we play so poorly for such large periods of the game.

It’s time for a change, 5 at the back is dead.
The prosecution rests

Who is playing right back for us in a back 4? Lati out of position?

And where are we replacing the lack of height we'll have from removing one of the CBs?

clint van damme · Sep 27, 2023

PVA said:
We aren't going to abandon the formation a few games into the season after so much success in recent years and after spending the summer recruiting players for that formation.

For the odd game, or for certain opposition, or in the middle of an injury crisis? Sure, why not. But this is our formation and we are going to stick with it.

I would like to see the box again though when we have the personnel available for it.

Though the box still has 5 at the back behind it.

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

skyblueelephant76 said:
Who is playing right back for us in a back 4? Lati out of position?

And where are we replacing the lack of height we'll have from removing one of the CBs?

It’s a fair question tbf, obviously I don’t properly know who would play RB for the time being (obvs MVE when he’s back) but maybe Lati or Eccles? Lati came on as RB last game I think maybe? and Eccles played pretty well there at the start of the season. I imagine Lati though, a bit more solid defensively maybe?

fernandopartridge · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
Do you ever read anything anyone ever writes? I swear all you do is just make up some gibberish that’s got nothing to do with the topic and then try to argue it in a weird convoluted way that completely adds nothing to do the discussion and helps us in no way at all. We’re trying to look at what’s best for our club, not fucking nit-pick people’s wording, ffs.

And in answer to your irrelevant question, I quote my original post which you clearly failed to read, “I’m not saying the formation caused individual errors”, i.e. the formation didn’t cause individual errors, the reason being is that individual errors are not the fucking issue, there’s always individual errors in any game of football, we don’t create enough, that’s the issue and 5 at the back clearly doesn’t help us create goals.

(Edit: Nothing personal btw, apologies I seemed a bit OTT there, I just get fed up of answering questions that I feel have nothing to do with the topic in hand.)

You need to be more succinct with your points.

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clint van damme · Sep 27, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
You need to be more succinct with your points.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

You could have shortened that to forsake verbosity

San Francisco · Sep 27, 2023

clint van damme said:
You could have shortened that to forsake verbosity

Use less words.

clint van damme · Sep 27, 2023

San Francisco said:
Use less words.

I did! Though you've been more economical with letters, which I commend.

fernandopartridge · Sep 27, 2023

clint van damme said:
I did! Though you've been more economical with letters, which I commend.

K

Evo1883 · Sep 27, 2023

Losing 9 points from winning positions in my honest opinion , and conceding 6 goals in the last 15 minutes isn't a 5 ATB problem

We'd be just as likely to concede late with 1 less defender and the same 2 holding midfielders .

I'm not sure the need to change to 4 is there yet , again we've lost just 2 games

The only change I'd recommend personally is to swith to the box last 10 in winning situations to offer more defensive support from midfield

quinn1971 · Sep 27, 2023

no matter what level of football that’s just shocking, all over the place, 3 on 2 on the right side, as a manager you can’t plan for that, so many individual mistakes for the goal, wright gets caught in a stupid offside, bidwell in no man’s land, Eccles and Thomas miss it, awful

Evo1883 · Sep 27, 2023

quinn1971 said:
no matter what level of football that’s just shocking, all over the place, 3 on 2 on the right side, as a manager you can’t plan for that, so many individual mistakes for the goal, wright gets caught in a stupid offside, bidwell in no man’s land, Eccles and Thomas miss it, awful

Exactly, it's nothing to do with formation

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 27, 2023

If they're struggling to learn their positioning for this formation, not sure changing system so they have to learn from scratch all over again would help.

quinn1971 · Sep 27, 2023

Even worse, awful

Evo1883 · Sep 27, 2023

quinn1971 said:
Even worse, awful

Jesus christ

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 27, 2023

fernandopartridge said:
You need to be more succinct with your points.

Yeah fair enough, I find it hard not to waffle tbf But I think with something like this it’s hard to get all the info out there without trying to explain it a bit. Anyway I’ll try and shorten it in future as it is quite a long post tbf

Matt smith · Sep 27, 2023

Evo1883 said:
Losing 9 points from winning positions in my honest opinion , and conceding 6 goals in the last 15 minutes isn't a 5 ATB problem

We'd be just as likely to concede late with 1 less defender and the same 2 holding midfielders .

I'm not sure the need to change to 4 is there yet , again we've lost just 2 games

The only change I'd recommend personally is to swith to the box last 10 in winning situations to offer more defensive support from midfield

Agree on the last point for sure @Evo1883

quinn1971 · Sep 27, 2023

Last min 1-0 up, should be 10 behind the ball, defend for your lives, we’re jogging back and all over the place,

quinn1971 · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
Yeah fair enough, I find it hard not to waffle tbf But I think with something like this it’s hard to get all the info out there without trying to explain it a bit. Anyway I’ll try and shorten it in future as it is quite a long post tbf

You’ve got a point though, 5 at the back with Eccles and Kelly sitting deep it’s a back 7, too defensive which makes the fact we can’t defend even worse, we’re set up not to concede

pusbccfc · Sep 27, 2023

We're currently playing 7 at the back with two very defensive midfielders.

That's works if you have an outlet to play long to like Vik. Not when you're pumping it London to Matty Godden

Londonccfcfan · Sep 27, 2023

BlueSkiesForever said:
I’m convinced that playing 5 at the back isn’t helping us win games and I think it’s about time Robins changed his tack with our formation. Our gameplay and play style in general is so boring, so predictable, so lacklustre and has so few options in the final third that I think it’s time for a formation change. I think when you set up as 5 at the back you’re almost saying to the opposition we’re scared to come at you as we’re almost putting more defensive options on the pitch than attacking options. I think 5 works when you have wingers that can cross well but half the time we don’t ever seem to beat the first man. It’s no wonder we’re getting so many draws when our team is set up so defensively.

After having looked at the table and the formations that other championship teams play I’ve got some interesting data that shows that 5 at the back doesn’t work well (in general), there are always exceptions to the rule but I’m now convinced more than ever we need to move on from 5 at the back.

In the following list I’ve put a tick for teams that play some sort of 4 at the back formation and a cross for teams that play some sort of 5 at the back or wingback formation. The data is over the last 4-5 games so isn’t complete but it took a while to get that much data so feel free if you wish to dig deeper.

Leicester
Ipswich
Preston
Hull
Sunderland
Leeds yes
Cardiff
Norwich
Bristol
Birmingham
Milwall
Plymouth
West Brom
Blackburn
Southampton
Watford
Huddersfield
Coventry
QPR
Stoke
Swansea
Middlesbrough
Rotherham
Sheffield Wes

So you can see from that list that 5 of the current bottom 7 teams all play with some sort of 5 at the back. Yet 9 out of the current top 10 play with some sort of 4 at the back formation.

This pattern also extends to the premier league, only 4 teams in the Prem play semi-regularly with 5 at the back, these are Luton, Sheffield United, Nottingham Forest and Chelsea. Notice a pattern here? They’re all lower half teams.

The best teams in the premier league, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton etc etc, all play with a strict 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Is it any coincidence?

I think Robins is a great manager and great leader for our team but he really should be looking at our performances and thinking why isn’t it working? You can’t keep blaming “gel” or “time” or blaming individual errors, one little headed mistake or free-kick mistake here and there doesn’t mean anything when we play so poorly for such large periods of the game.

It’s time for a change, 5 at the back is dead.
The prosecution rests

5 at the back isnt the problem. Its ahead of that causing the problems and requires a system change.

One of the 3 centre backs have to step up and drive forward when spare and in acres of space ahead. This isnt happening enough.

Its little tweaks required here and there.

pusbccfc · Sep 27, 2023

quinn1971 said:
Last min 1-0 up, should be 10 behind the ball, defend for your lives, we’re jogging back and all over the place,

They were doing that for the majority of the second half. You're bound to make a mistake if you spend 30 minutes throwing your body at shots.

quinn1971 · Sep 27, 2023

just a shame they chose the last 10 seconds to make it, we were all over the place for their goal, manager can’t plan for that,

5 At The Back Needs To Go (1 Viewer)

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