9 year old shot dead (1 Viewer)

shmmeee · Aug 23, 2022

TwistAndShoutCCFC1987 said:
I live in liverpool. I think this shooting is another gang related issue, which I agree isn’t helped by Tory budget cuts. It’s all about perception. This sort of thing happens in London and people don’t hold it against the people there. This also only happens in selected areas of north liverpool , the majority of south liverpool and other parts of north liverpool are very safe. I always say this and nobody ever believes me - but I genuinely think that Coventry is more dangerous than Liverpool and I have felt genuinely unsafe more times in Cov than in Liverpool. Regardless , I of course agree that this must end and gang violence (and knife crime etc) needs to be tackled.

Fucking legalise drugs FFS. It’s absolutely nuts that we hand a bunch of gangsters control of a multibillion pound market. Every kid I’ve seen get mixed up with gangs it’s started with selling a bit of weed or coke for what seems like big money, then deeper and deeper. Half the violence is over drugs debts or territory.

End the lot in one stroke and make the bar to entry being willing to do something serious that puts most kids off on first sight, rather than “run a small bag of plant matter up the street and I’ll give you a tenner”.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 23, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking legalise drugs FFS. It’s absolutely nuts that we hand a bunch of gangsters control of a multibillion pound market. Every kid I’ve seen get mixed up with gangs it’s started with selling a bit of weed or coke for what seems like big money, then deeper and deeper. Half the violence is over drugs debts or territory.

End the lot in one stroke and make the bar to entry being willing to do something serious that puts most kids off on first sight, rather than “run a small bag of plant matter up the street and I’ll give you a tenner”.

Couldn't agree more. You'd think prohibition would've been all anyone needed to realise that banning shit like this only makes it worse.

Of course legalisation would have issues, as some people would be willing to take drugs that otherwise wouldn't purely because they were illegal, but there's also a lot that start purely because it feels rebellious and illicit.

Plus there's the advantages of regulation of supply and quality, getting tax on it while simultaneously reducing spending on finding and shutting down operations, less scope for gangs etc. to make money and all the societal and policing costs that come with that. Plus those that are addicted are more likely to be able to get help, and even ask for it in the first place.

And that doesn't mean to say it's like you'd suddenly be accepting of it. You can still have a government position of being strongly opposed to drugs, run public information discouraing people from doing it and pointing out all the downsides and pitfalls that drugs have.

It's not a perfect solution by any means but it seems to me it'd be a much better one than what we've got now.

JAM See · Aug 23, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking legalise drugs FFS. It’s absolutely nuts that we hand a bunch of gangsters control of a multibillion pound market. Every kid I’ve seen get mixed up with gangs it’s started with selling a bit of weed or coke for what seems like big money, then deeper and deeper. Half the violence is over drugs debts or territory.

End the lot in one stroke and make the bar to entry being willing to do something serious that puts most kids off on first sight, rather than “run a small bag of plant matter up the street and I’ll give you a tenner”.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Couldn't agree more. You'd think prohibition would've been all anyone needed to realise that banning shit like this only makes it worse.

Of course legalisation would have issues, as some people would be willing to take drugs that otherwise wouldn't purely because they were illegal, but there's also a lot that start purely because it feels rebellious and illicit.

Plus there's the advantages of regulation of supply and quality, getting tax on it while simultaneously reducing spending on finding and shutting down operations, less scope for gangs etc. to make money and all the societal and policing costs that come with that. Plus those that are addicted are more likely to be able to get help, and even ask for it in the first place.

And that doesn't mean to say it's like you'd suddenly be accepting of it. You can still have a government position of being strongly opposed to drugs, run public information discouraing people from doing it and pointing out all the downsides and pitfalls that drugs have.

It's not a perfect solution by any means but it seems to me it'd be a much better one than what we've got now.

It's a really difficult one.

Look at the Oxycontin crisis in the US.

I agree that some form of decriminisalition is required, but that opioid crisis in America is horrendous, and these were legal, prescription drugs.

Really tight legislation, and enforcement of said legislation would be required, which I'm not confident would happen, given the enforcement of current laws on, e.g water companies (Fergal Sharkey is the guy to google on that issue)

Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots

Understanding how the opioid epidemic arose in the United States could help to predict how it might spread to other countries.

www.nature.com

Covkid1968# · Aug 23, 2022

TwistAndShoutCCFC1987 said:
I live in liverpool. I think this shooting is another gang related issue, which I agree isn’t helped by Tory budget cuts. It’s all about perception. This sort of thing happens in London and people don’t hold it against the people there. This also only happens in selected areas of north liverpool , the majority of south liverpool and other parts of north liverpool are very safe. I always say this and nobody ever believes me - but I genuinely think that Coventry is more dangerous than Liverpool and I have felt genuinely unsafe more times in Cov than in Liverpool. Regardless , I of course agree that this must end and gang violence (and knife crime etc) needs to be tackled.

Yep… completely agree. Spend half my life in Auigburth and always feel safe…north Liverpool does seem a different kettle of fish and whilst my family ran pubs there I rarely go that way these days.

skybluetony176 · Aug 23, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking legalise drugs FFS. It’s absolutely nuts that we hand a bunch of gangsters control of a multibillion pound market. Every kid I’ve seen get mixed up with gangs it’s started with selling a bit of weed or coke for what seems like big money, then deeper and deeper. Half the violence is over drugs debts or territory.

End the lot in one stroke and make the bar to entry being willing to do something serious that puts most kids off on first sight, rather than “run a small bag of plant matter up the street and I’ll give you a tenner”.

We should certainly decriminalise drugs for personal use, we should legalise weed, licence growers in the UK, licence the sales of weed and tax the proceeds. Bit difficult with other drugs as A) they’re more harmful and in many ways than weed and B) growing weed is fairly simple. More difficult with drugs such as cocaine and heroin so you’re almost certainly going to legalise the funding of terrorist organisations and international crime gangs which could lead to exacerbating issues in other countries.

skybluetony176 · Aug 23, 2022

SBT said:
Eh?

He’s right, there’s still an aftertaste of the lies that the Tories and compliant press(most notably The Sun) spread about Liverpool and specifically Liverpool fans after Hillsborough disaster to shift the blame, any blame, from the police to solely onto the Liverpool fans. Unfortunately not everyone is up to date with the work of Andy Burnham and the relatives of the Hillsborough victims that corrected the record. They clearly forgot to read the Sun the one day that they put an apology on the front cover but remember the decades of lies that they spread.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 23, 2022

JAM See said:
It's a really difficult one.

Look at the Oxycontin crisis in the US.

I agree that some form of decriminisalition is required, but that opioid crisis in America is horrendous, and these were legal, prescription drugs.

Really tight legislation, and enforcement of said legislation would be required, which I'm not confident would happen, given the enforcement of current laws on, e.g water companies (Fergal Sharkey is the guy to google on that issue)

Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots

Understanding how the opioid epidemic arose in the United States could help to predict how it might spread to other countries.

www.nature.com

I accept there is that danger. The opiod crisis is largely fuelled by the pharmaceuticals industry pushing doctors to write prescriptions for everything, and the doctors for accepting what is essentially a bribe. I'm sure that there are many, many doctors over there who are guilty of wilful negligence and failure in their duty of care.

We do seem to ape the way the US works and bringing in privatisation of the healthcare system, and that's a perfect example of why a financial motive is very often a shit one.

I still think that it's a better route to take than what we're doing now.

stay_up_skyblues · Aug 23, 2022

JAM See said:
It's a really difficult one.

Look at the Oxycontin crisis in the US.

I agree that some form of decriminisalition is required, but that opioid crisis in America is horrendous, and these were legal, prescription drugs.

Really tight legislation, and enforcement of said legislation would be required, which I'm not confident would happen, given the enforcement of current laws on, e.g water companies (Fergal Sharkey is the guy to google on that issue)

Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots

Understanding how the opioid epidemic arose in the United States could help to predict how it might spread to other countries.

www.nature.com

I agree. Legalising and making available for sale hard drugs, namely crack, cocaine, heroin etc will result in massive addiction, illness and deaths imo. Far more people will die of overdose and long term damage than we sadly lose to gang violence. Not to mention the effects on kids whose parents become addicted. You see it with alcohol now. It may reduce the gang related activity but thefts and prostitution to feed addiction etc. would go up massively.

Kieranp96 · Aug 23, 2022

You’re all blaming Tory’s when it always seems to be the same type of people committing the crime, teens and people in their 20’s normally of ethnic minorities, not always the case but like 8/10 crimes are committed by the same group.

rob9872 · Aug 23, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
He’s right, there’s still an aftertaste of the lies that the Tories and compliant press(most notably The Sun) spread about Liverpool and specifically Liverpool fans after Hillsborough disaster to shift the blame, any blame, from the police to solely onto the Liverpool fans. Unfortunately not everyone is up to date with the work of Andy Burnham and the relatives of the Hillsborough victims that corrected the record. They clearly forgot to read the Sun the one day that they put an apology on the front cover but remember the decades of lies that they spread.

Tory Tory Tory. Youre a broken record Tony.

They don't help themselves with their 'scouse first' approach and things like booing the national anthem. If they want people to move on then it's a two way street.

That documentary on Rhys Jones and the cover ups from the families and the mob rule on the streets was enlightening, although of course many major cities sadly similar now and this recent burst of increased gun and knife crime is worrying too. Its not just Liverpool but they're certainly up there.

rob9872 · Aug 23, 2022

Kieranp96 said:
You’re all blaming Tory’s when it always seems to be the same type of people committing the crime, teens and people in their 20’s normally of ethnic minorities, not always the case but like 8/10 crimes are committed by the same group.

I'm not sure that will stack up here. I'd give you the ages, but I'd almost be certain these scumbags will be white.

JAM See · Aug 24, 2022

Kieranp96 said:
You’re all blaming Tory’s when it always seems to be the same type of people committing the crime, teens and people in their 20’s normally of ethnic minorities, not always the case but like 8/10 crimes are committed by the same group.

Citation please.

clint van damme · Aug 24, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking legalise drugs FFS. It’s absolutely nuts that we hand a bunch of gangsters control of a multibillion pound market. Every kid I’ve seen get mixed up with gangs it’s started with selling a bit of weed or coke for what seems like big money, then deeper and deeper. Half the violence is over drugs debts or territory.

End the lot in one stroke and make the bar to entry being willing to do something serious that puts most kids off on first sight, rather than “run a small bag of plant matter up the street and I’ll give you a tenner”.

While I agree 100 percent we're both working on the assumption the the purpose of the war on drugs is to end the drug trade in which case its failed.
But I'm not so sure that's its true purpose at all, ditto the war on terror.

clint van damme · Aug 24, 2022

stay_up_skyblues said:
I agree. Legalising and making available for sale hard drugs, namely crack, cocaine, heroin etc will result in massive addiction, illness and deaths imo. Far more people will die of overdose and long term damage than we sadly lose to gang violence. Not to mention the effects on kids whose parents become addicted. You see it with alcohol now. It may reduce the gang related activity but thefts and prostitution to feed addiction etc. would go up massively.

There's huge amounts of evidence that this isn't true. Quite the contrary.
That doesn't mean it's a silver bullet that will eradicate the issues you've mentioned.

stay_up_skyblues · Aug 24, 2022

clint van damme said:
There's huge amounts of evidence that this isn't true. Quite the contrary.
That doesn't mean it's a silver bullet that will eradicate the issues you've mentioned.

I know some countries have seen good results from decriminalising drugs (Portugal springs to mind, although without checking, I do recall usage may have increased, albeit those seeking treatment went up). But I understood the suggestion was to legalise and make hard drugs available for sale. That’s very different to decriminalisation imo.

If you could stroll into a shop and buy crack/opiates then I’m 99% sure the same problems we have with alcohol miss-use in UK would apply. The damaging effects on health are accelerated massively on those drugs versus booze. They can take your body and soul in no time. I’ve seen it live more than once and don’t see any situation where making access to them easier is a good thing*.

Decriminalisation and massive investment in addiction treatment I’m definitely on board with. Jailing young people/giving out criminal records for possession doesn’t work and worsens the cycle. But for the issue being discussed I don’t see how that really impacts the gang involvement in supply.

*edit - The exception being some sort of controlled, safe supply to those already chronically addicted in a safe, controlled environment and alongside intensive treatment. Similar (but properly managed and funded) to what happens now with methadone. My point is more around availability to potential new users.

skybluetony176 · Aug 24, 2022

rob9872 said:
Tory Tory Tory. Youre a broken record Tony.

They don't help themselves with their 'scouse first' approach and things like booing the national anthem. If they want people to move on then it's a two way street.

That documentary on Rhys Jones and the cover ups from the families and the mob rule on the streets was enlightening, although of course many major cities sadly similar now and this recent burst of increased gun and knife crime is worrying too. Its not just Liverpool but they're certainly up there.

I was addressing a certain point and facts I’m afraid are facts. The deliberate vilification of Liverpool started with Hillsborough and didn’t let up for decades. The other issues that Liverpool faces are typical of any city, always have been and always will be.

By the way, what happened to Liverpool fans at Hillsborough almost happened to Coventry fans (twice) at Hillsborough in an FA cup ties. It very easily could have been the city of Coventry that was deliberately vilified by the police, the government and their compliant press.

Nick · Aug 24, 2022

Have they caught the c**t yet?

Grendel · Aug 24, 2022

Nick said:
Have they caught the c**t yet?

No I assume the bloke who was shot will know who he is but will he speak?

Grendel · Aug 24, 2022

Police have been given a suspects name

ajsccfc · Aug 24, 2022

Hell of a front page, if only it would have some effect on the people it's aimed at

stupot07 · Aug 24, 2022

Grendel said:
No I assume the bloke who was shot will know who he is but will he speak?

Given someone's wants him dead enough to be running around shooting at him in public, you'd think he has no reason not to name the man. He's a wanted man 'grassing' or not. But he won't.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

SBT · Aug 24, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
He’s right, there’s still an aftertaste of the lies that the Tories and compliant press(most notably The Sun) spread about Liverpool and specifically Liverpool fans after Hillsborough disaster to shift the blame, any blame, from the police to solely onto the Liverpool fans. Unfortunately not everyone is up to date with the work of Andy Burnham and the relatives of the Hillsborough victims that corrected the record. They clearly forgot to read the Sun the one day that they put an apology on the front cover but remember the decades of lies that they spread.

I was referring to the suggestion that Londoners don't get a bad rep for violent crime in their city.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 24, 2022

TwistAndShoutCCFC1987 said:
I live in liverpool. I think this shooting is another gang related issue, which I agree isn’t helped by Tory budget cuts. It’s all about perception. This sort of thing happens in London and people don’t hold it against the people there. This also only happens in selected areas of north liverpool , the majority of south liverpool and other parts of north liverpool are very safe. I always say this and nobody ever believes me - but I genuinely think that Coventry is more dangerous than Liverpool and I have felt genuinely unsafe more times in Cov than in Liverpool. Regardless , I of course agree that this must end and gang violence (and knife crime etc) needs to be tackled.

It happens in London then certain politicians try to pin it on the failings of Sadiq Khan.

clint van damme · Aug 24, 2022

stay_up_skyblues said:
I know some countries have seen good results from decriminalising drugs (Portugal springs to mind, although without checking, I do recall usage may have increased, albeit those seeking treatment went up). But I understood the suggestion was to legalise and make hard drugs available for sale. That’s very different to decriminalisation imo.

If you could stroll into a shop and buy crack/opiates then I’m 99% sure the same problems we have with alcohol miss-use in UK would apply. The damaging effects on health are accelerated massively on those drugs versus booze. They can take your body and soul in no time. I’ve seen it live more than once and don’t see any situation where making access to them easier is a good thing*.

Decriminalisation and massive investment in addiction treatment I’m definitely on board with. Jailing young people/giving out criminal records for possession doesn’t work and worsens the cycle. But for the issue being discussed I don’t see how that really impacts the gang involvement in supply.

*edit - The exception being some sort of controlled, safe supply to those already chronically addicted in a safe, controlled environment and alongside intensive treatment. Similar (but properly managed and funded) to what happens now with methadone. My point is more around availability to potential new users.

Prohibition is a good barometer, still lots of problems with alcohol in the States but nowhere near the levels of issues as when it was controlled by gangsters.

And opiates were legal at one point, the reasons they were made illegal was nothing to do with concerns for public health.

Though if we ever do decide to introduce a more progressive drugs policy, I'm sure it will be more akin to the decriminalisation you've described rather than legalisation, (perhaps with the exception of cannabis).

eastwoodsdustman · Aug 24, 2022

ajsccfc said:
Hell of a front page, if only it would have some effect on the people it's aimed at

This does seems to be more of an issue up there though with people keeping quiet to 'protect each other' like some sort of Mafia code. It was one of the first things the police raised in their statements and for the local press to raise it seems that there is a deeper issue with it. Same happened with the Rhys Jones murder like some posted earlier.

Nick · Aug 24, 2022

I can sort of get how it's a Mafia code with gangland killings.

If it's innocent people and 9 year old kids, that goes out the window.

Ccfcsj · Aug 24, 2022

Looks like they've arrested somebody. Not the shooter by the looks of it, but the person being shot at

Olivia Pratt-Korbel: Convicted drug dealer held after Liverpool shooting

Convicted drug dealer Joseph Nee, who was shot as he ran into Olivia Pratt-Korbel's home, is detained.

www.bbc.co.uk

Olivia Pratt-Korbel: Man arrested in connection with fatal shooting of nine-year-old girl in Liverpool

Police say the suspected target of the shooting has been detained in hospital on a prison recall after breaching the terms of his licence. He will be recalled to prison - and will be further questioned in connection with Olivia Pratt-Korbel's killing.

news.sky.com

skybluetony176 · Aug 24, 2022

SBT said:
I was referring to the suggestion that Londoners don't get a bad rep for violent crime in their city.

I’m saying that where Liverpool is concerned it’s the ghost of past smear campaigns following Hillsborough. There’s still people that believe that Liverpool fans were stealing wallets, watches, jewellery etc. of the dead and dying instead of helping them. A complete fabrication by Yorkshire police, supported by the sitting government at that time and the client press, most notably but not exclusively the Sun. It took the Sun over 25 years to set the record straight in print and even then in stark contrast to the lies it spread for years it didn’t put it on the front page.

Nick · Aug 24, 2022

The man who had entered the family home suffered gunshot wounds to his upper body and, as Olivia lay dying, was picked up and taken to hospital by friends driving a dark-coloured Audi which has since been seized by police.

Yeah, let's hope there's DNA of everybody in that car. They can go down for being complicit in her death too.

Dominic H · Aug 24, 2022

scousers for ya

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 24, 2022

stay_up_skyblues said:
I know some countries have seen good results from decriminalising drugs (Portugal springs to mind, although without checking, I do recall usage may have increased, albeit those seeking treatment went up). But I understood the suggestion was to legalise and make hard drugs available for sale. That’s very different to decriminalisation imo.

If you could stroll into a shop and buy crack/opiates then I’m 99% sure the same problems we have with alcohol miss-use in UK would apply. The damaging effects on health are accelerated massively on those drugs versus booze. They can take your body and soul in no time. I’ve seen it live more than once and don’t see any situation where making access to them easier is a good thing*.

Decriminalisation and massive investment in addiction treatment I’m definitely on board with. Jailing young people/giving out criminal records for possession doesn’t work and worsens the cycle. But for the issue being discussed I don’t see how that really impacts the gang involvement in supply.

*edit - The exception being some sort of controlled, safe supply to those already chronically addicted in a safe, controlled environment and alongside intensive treatment. Similar (but properly managed and funded) to what happens now with methadone. My point is more around availability to potential new users.

There is the issue with legalisation or decriminalisation.

If you just decriminalise it, you're still leaving it in the control of the drug gangs, you just aren't penalising those involved, So that would mean you're not getting fines etc. but still have the problems, dangers and costs involved.

Legalisation puts you in control. You can control to some extent the supply, the quality, you can raise tax on it to help with the problems. It gives you so much more scope to fight the problem.

If legalisation is such a problem due to health concerns, why aren't we pushing to change the status of alcohol? Studies have shown alcohol addiction to be one of the worst in terms of overall impact for health, loved ones and society, including worse than crack and heroin.

The points you make are fair ones, and I said earlier that it would almost certainly lead to an increase in usage and all that that entails.

It could be rolled out bit by bit to assess the changes. Start with things like pot, then move onto stuff like MDMA until eventually you slowly work up to the hard drugs.

The ideal would be legalisation but being able to have a public perception that doing drugs is a very unhealthy and socially irresponsible thing to do. That public perception would mean far more than any legal definition. We've seen that happen gradually with smoking, which is still legal. I also think attitudes towards drinking have changed a bit in recent years, but still have some way to go in all sections of society.

Dominic H · Aug 24, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
I’m saying that where Liverpool is concerned it’s the ghost of past smear campaigns following Hillsborough. There’s still people that believe that Liverpool fans were stealing wallets, watches, jewellery etc. of the dead and dying instead of helping them. A complete fabrication by Yorkshire police, supported by the sitting government at that time and the client press, most notably but not exclusively the Sun. It took the Sun over 25 years to set the record straight in print and even then in stark contrast to the lies it spread for years it didn’t put it on the front page.

we all know they were tho

shmmeee · Aug 24, 2022

JAM See said:
It's a really difficult one.

Look at the Oxycontin crisis in the US.

I agree that some form of decriminisalition is required, but that opioid crisis in America is horrendous, and these were legal, prescription drugs.

Really tight legislation, and enforcement of said legislation would be required, which I'm not confident would happen, given the enforcement of current laws on, e.g water companies (Fergal Sharkey is the guy to google on that issue)

Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots

Understanding how the opioid epidemic arose in the United States could help to predict how it might spread to other countries.

www.nature.com

Then ban alcohol cos it has the same issues.

Humans have been modifying their brain chemistry for fun and mental health reasons since the dawn of time. You ain’t going to stop people taking drugs, you’re just putting a huge market in the hands of criminals.

Treat addiction as what it is: a health issue. But frankly not finding mental health support, not tackling homelessness andpoverty and also not legalising drugs is the worst of all worlds.

It’sabatch87 · Aug 24, 2022

They should bring back the rope for child killers!!

stay_up_skyblues · Aug 24, 2022

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
There is the issue with legalisation or decriminalisation.

If you just decriminalise it, you're still leaving it in the control of the drug gangs, you just aren't penalising those involved, So that would mean you're not getting fines etc. but still have the problems, dangers and costs involved.

Legalisation puts you in control. You can control to some extent the supply, the quality, you can raise tax on it to help with the problems. It gives you so much more scope to fight the problem.

If legalisation is such a problem due to health concerns, why aren't we pushing to change the status of alcohol? Studies have shown alcohol addiction to be one of the worst in terms of overall impact for health, loved ones and society, including worse than crack and heroin.

The points you make are fair ones, and I said earlier that it would almost certainly lead to an increase in usage and all that that entails.

It could be rolled out bit by bit to assess the changes. Start with things like pot, then move onto stuff like MDMA until eventually you slowly work up to the hard drugs.

The ideal would be legalisation but being able to have a public perception that doing drugs is a very unhealthy and socially irresponsible thing to do. That public perception would mean far more than any legal definition. We've seen that happen gradually with smoking, which is still legal. I also think attitudes towards drinking have changed a bit in recent years, but still have some way to go in all sections of society.

There is a solid argument for it (alcohol) but that horse has long since bolted. It is statistically more damaging/deadly than crack and heroin at the moment. But that would change if you could pick up a 20 shot of crack with your shopping.

These are drugs that you become addicted to in weeks of regular use and take your wealth and life in a fraction of time alcohol does. But alcohol is absolutely a slow killer and causes untold damage for a minority. However, it’s a little niggle for a “normal drinker” to desire a second drink after a first. I guarantee within minutes of your first taste of crack you’re physically and mentally craving the next one.

Im probably a touch bias having lost a few school friends to heroin overdoses and being two years sober of alcohol myself. But I do feel strongly over a select few drugs and believe ready availability would cause mass devastation.

As for the less addictive/low key and party drugs (MDMA, acid, weed etc.) no huge objections, although I’d prefer it if my kids couldn’t walk into a shop and buy it. That said, if they’re gonna do it, I’d rather it was clean.

9 year old shot dead (1 Viewer)

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