Grendel
Well-Known Member
I'm sure Peter will put your mind at rest.
So that would seem a logical plan. But less than 3 yrs later ACL have to be bailed out by the council to the tune of £14m. Still sounding like a sustainable business?
It was kind of a tongue in cheek comment to be fair - but to say that the CET is the pantheon of accurate reporting is stretching it a little too far. You have to love how Les Reid was the voice for the fans to begin with, but now as he started to ask certain questions that didn't fit in within certain agendas he is now derided as someone who is not credible. Same for Nikki Sinclaire - everyone was happy to have her on board when the March went through the city, but all of a sudden she isn't credible either.
It's hardly the basis of a constructive campaign if you are happy to take people's information as fact until they don't fit in with your aims - at which point they are lambasted and made to be peddlers of false information.
As for the link - I have seen it, but as I am not an expert in contract law I wanted to be 100% sure, which is why I asked. I guess it will be easy for PWKH to answer that one as it appears that money went to ACL. As for the £7.7m have you ever seen it in ACL's accounts? And how does a company that receives a financial injection like that need bailing out by the local council less than 3 years later?
What the fuck is wrong with me? Would ask what the fuck is wrong with you. But I know what the problem is. You are looking at it all with one eye shut. Where have I ever said it is all SISU's fault?
The problem lies with what SISU want and the way they have gone about getting it. That is why we are playing in Northampton. That is why they are bullshitting us all the time. And they can't have what they want. As I said earlier there are laws stopping them from getting what they want. You can shout about it as much as you want. Will shouting about it get the law changed? If not it isn't going to happen. It doesn't matter who you blame or by how much. If CCC were to blame for 90% of this charade SISU still wouldn't get what they want.
So you want SISU to get everything for a low amount as this might get rid of them? Shall we work out how much it will cost someone to give SISU what they want.......although they have only hinted what they want?
By the sound of it they want the Ricoh arena and everything that comes with it unencumbered.
How much for Higgs to be paid off?
How much for the catering rights to be paid off?
How much for the casino contract to be paid off?
How much for the ACL loans to be paid off?
How much for all other contracts to be paid off?
How much will all this cost? Who will pay for it all?
Then SISU would be happy to buy it off CCC. Do you really think that they would be able to pay as much as all the contracts and loans would cost? And then you have the problem of CCC having to sell to the highest bidder. CCC couldn't just let them have it on the cheap as it is covered by law. What makes you think that SISU would be the highest bidder? But who else would want the stadium and everything that comes with it I hear you say. Quite a few I would say as the value without any of the present contracts and loans would be much higher. It is the sort of thing that the pensions industry, investment trusts and HEDGE FUNDS :facepalm: would want to buy into. And SISU would have to outbid them all to get their wish.
How much of this do you disagree with so far?
OK lets get back to the so called road map.
It seems that it was agreed that SISU would pay Higgs for their share, the debt from YB would be paid off and SISU were to go into partnership with CCC. The due dilligence was done.....or not done as Deering said in court. SISU wouldn't pay Higgs the agreed 5.5m as they wanted unless they took it over 10 years with 1.5m down and 400k per annum. Higgs wanted proof of funds for this to happen it seems. This wasn't forthcoming. What I don't understand is that the cost to SISU over two seasons at Northampton would have covered these payments. If they would have gone ahead everyone would have been happy. The Ricoh would have been mortgage free. The handling of the stadium would have been taken off the hands of CCC. Peppercorn rent could have been sorted for our club. All profits shared between SISU and CCC. Higgs would have got most of their money back. But SISU couldn't or didn't want to give them their money back. Was this because they wanted it all for themselves? If so it takes us back to the start of this post
So what is left that can happen?
Can't see another so called road map happening. Can't even see Higgs being happy to try and sell to SISU after what happened with the last attempt. They had what they thought was the first 29k of legal expenses paid. SISU never even paid this but wasted much more getting out of paying it costing both sides a lot of money.
Joy picking up the phone and coming to some sort of arrangement? It seems that she don't negotiate. We have seen it several times now. How many more years of litigation are to follow before they give up? Will they actually give up after the JR? What will happen with the JR?
You can call me what you want. I was nearly sober last night so was never going to bite. Used to get much worse nearly every night when I worked the doors. I have tried looking at it all on the legal side as well as what is best for our club. It don't matter who you see as to blame. And you are right on one thing. I don't blame all sides. I don't blame Higgs. There has been nothing to show them to blame for anything. Even the judge saw through the blame Deering tried to put on them. There are also rules and laws they have to keep to. These are the reasons that they had to take SISU to court. They got advised to take the case up as it was thought that they had a legally binding contract.
I hope some of you pull this post to bits. I know certain people will look to do so. If I am wrong on anything I will admit so. But the reason that I have come to the conclusion that I have is because of what I believe to be true. We have gone down the line too far to put it simply down to blame. It is now down to how we can get out of it all. And the only way I see is a meeting to happen and negotiations to happen. Will SISU ever want the Higgs share and will Higgs ever be prepared to try again with them? Will Joy ever decide enough is enough and negotiate at last?
So that would seem a logical plan. But less than 3 yrs later ACL have to be bailed out by the council to the tune of £14m. Still sounding like a sustainable business?
I think the club one is Advent, the one owned by Adam Dent, though think they also do stuff for CCC.
Simon Gilbert used to work for them..
I was referring to the original deal. The one where CCFC only got match day tickets revenue and that was it. An absolutely ridiculous deal to have been put in place. And although the subsequent rent deals were improved, the revenue conditions were never altered - which is why they can't come to an agreement.
I'm not sure who does the majority of the club's PR these days, it's true Advent plays a supporting role - as it did when I worked there. Mr Labovitch is fairly active and seems to be the club's primary PR contact.
Worth clarifying that while I was at Advent we also undertook PR activity for the Higgs Charity, Coventry City Council and ACL.
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What's wrong with him asking the questions after pwkh was on here yesterday?
Between this and the other thread some people's agendas are really starting to shine through
Clearly the main issue is the revenue streams. We could go around the houses forever about blame etc, but suffice to say that for the football club to be self sufficient it must have control of the money that comes into it. There is no other football club that had an arrangement that was like ours was. Lots of club don't own their own grounds but they do control all monies that come into the stadium, both on matchday and non-matchdays. Especially now with FFP protocols being implemented ( even though we don't directly operate under them) every pound that can be classed as revenue is important. The club can't generate enough money from ticket sales alone (even if we were at Ricoh) to be competitive and not rely on a benefactor to pump money in periodically. Until we get to that point we will always be reliant on people like SISU, or any future owners should they choose to leave.
I don't think it is unreasonable to want the club to control these. I don't necessarily agree that they have to own the stadium as a long term lease with full revenue control would do the same job.
Hmmm, another new poster. Random, specific questions aimed at a non-Sisu party. Never comes back to engage.
I feel we've been here before.
Such a shame I don't know the name of the Sisu PR company, it would make the accusations so much easier.
How about this for a rule: If you're a fan and you know things others don't and you keep that information to yourself. You're an [Expletive Deleted]. Either you're on the fans' side or your not. If you play games, then for me you're no fan, you've got vested interests.
What's wrong with him asking the questions after pwkh was on here yesterday?
Between this and the other thread some people's agendas are really starting to shine through
oh and do be quiet, look how many new posters have turned up with all lower case names and same posting styles as the council lovers.
Where to start..Have explained my thoughts. How about explaining yours?
Clearly the main issue is the revenue streams. We could go around the houses forever about blame etc, but suffice to say that for the football club to be self sufficient it must have control of the money that comes into it. There is no other football club that had an arrangement that was like ours was. Lots of club don't own their own grounds but they do control all monies that come into the stadium, both on matchday and non-matchdays. Especially now with FFP protocols being implemented ( even though we don't directly operate under them) every pound that can be classed as revenue is important. The club can't generate enough money from ticket sales alone (even if we were at Ricoh) to be competitive and not rely on a benefactor to pump money in periodically. Until we get to that point we will always be reliant on people like SISU, or any future owners should they choose to leave.
I don't think it is unreasonable to want the club to control these. I don't necessarily agree that they have to own the stadium as a long term lease with full revenue control would do the same job.
Where to start..
OK the club has to be able to stand on it's own two feet. Unless we do we will never make any progress, and that's why since we were relegated in 2001 we have been on a downward spiral. Whoever did the Ricoh deal in the first place needs shooting. It has been a noose round the clubs neck. SISU should have dealt with this at the time and done their due diligence correctly. They were probably told by Ranson that he would sort it - just need to get the bid in etc due to the impending admin threat. Then they get a bunch of muppets in to run it for the first 3/4 years - and that really fucked things up. I bet they originally bought in thinking they could turn a quick profit and sell on in 12-18 months. So in cutting corners they have made a right mess for themselves. Fast forward to now and we have Fisher and Seppala - clearly more financially astute than the previous lot, but not exactly very good at engaging with the fans, and have systematically alienated themselves with their decisions.
Is Fisher hated by the fans? Absolutely and I understand why
Is he right that the club have to control it's financial destiny? Yes
The club have got to make a huge effort to engage with the fanbase again. There are 2 obvious ways. Firstly sort out this bloody stadium nonsense. If they're gonna build it buy a site and start doing something. Fans will quite rightly think they are bullshitting until this happens. Secondly start a dialogue with the SBT - much as we know there is animosity, they are currently the biggest representative of our fans, so they need to engage properly with them again.
Clearly their strategy is to recoup some or all of their investment. If the club were to have it's own financial control at Ricoh or wherever, and then tie that in with success on pitch (getting to PL) then they would probably make most of it back. It looks like they are here long term, and no matter how many protest and NOPM campaigns we have they don't have to leave. I read last year that their cash balance was over £100m. They can run our club at Sixfields on the interest from that alone. The other point worth mentioning is that due to the financial controls now in place in League 1 - SCMP it's called, SISU can not add debt to the club other than interest on existing debt that were there historically. SISU are allowed to grant money to club to pay for players/wages etc but these figures cannot appear as debt in the future.
Then we have CCC/ACL... they have seen our club as a cash cow for years. Making money for little or no effort to get it - although they did build the stadium. But many councils build stadium for their local sports teams because they see the economic benefit to the city as a whole. Trying to cash in on the explosion of money in football is one thing, but draining the life out of the hometown club is another.
Anyway my concern here is how they want to move forward. They own a 32K purpose built stadium and complex, that without a football team will ultimately die on it's arse, irrespective of how much spin they put on it. So what is their agenda? Do they want control of the club? Why won't they sell to SISU? Now considering your points about the contracts they have in place - a fair price must be agreed. SISU do not deserve the stadium on the cheap, and the taxpayers of Coventry shouldn't be burdened with any shortfall. But why won't they come out and tell us all straight. They have missed a golden opportunity to call SISU out. Put the Ricoh on market for £XXm - how could SISU justify not buying it unless it's more than the cost of a new build. If they know that legally they can't sell it - tell us exactly why.
I also take issue with the idea of ACL/CCC being the moral compass. The rejection of the CVA was egotistical and downright spiteful. The idea of council good hedge fund bad is absurd considering most councils invest in them. It is not for them to hide behind the pretense of wanting clarity when they are just as secretive and uninformative. Championing this idea of corruption and underhand practices - yet they are they only consistent party in this whole mess. What about all the confidentially clauses that the previous regimes hid behind - are they prepared to expose them all... me thinks not.
Finally we have the CET. They have done nothing but exacerbate the tension between the 2 parties with their limited reporting and selective 'facts'. Why are they not championing a campaign that would be a hybrid of the KCIC/GCBTR movements? They have probably the most influence of all and yet they choose to stir the pot at every opportunity.
I'm sorry it's just a rambling, but all I want is to see CCFC back in Coventry, preferably at the Ricoh, with a deal that allows our club to have a sustainable future.
Lots of info and your take on things which is fair enough. I have just one question concerning paragraph 6. If ACL don't really want or need to sell then why would they put it on the market? Sorry to drag up the old house comparison but if you owned a house that you liked and wanted to keep but someone else wanted it, would you pay for valuations etc and then put it up for sale? Or would you expect that if someone really wanted to buy your house then you would expect them to come and have the necessary valuations done and then make you an offer?
Where to start..
OK the club has to be able to stand on it's own two feet. Unless we do we will never make any progress, and that's why since we were relegated in 2001 we have been on a downward spiral. Whoever did the Ricoh deal in the first place needs shooting. It has been a noose round the clubs neck. SISU should have dealt with this at the time and done their due diligence correctly. They were probably told by Ranson that he would sort it - just need to get the bid in etc due to the impending admin threat. Then they get a bunch of muppets in to run it for the first 3/4 years - and that really fucked things up. I bet they originally bought in thinking they could turn a quick profit and sell on in 12-18 months. So in cutting corners they have made a right mess for themselves. Fast forward to now and we have Fisher and Seppala - clearly more financially astute than the previous lot, but not exactly very good at engaging with the fans, and have systematically alienated themselves with their decisions.
Fully agree
Is Fisher hated by the fans? Absolutely and I understand why
Is he right that the club have to control it's financial destiny? Yes
I wouldn't say hated. But the way he does things are disliked at least. We need more information about what matters and we need more truth.
The club have got to make a huge effort to engage with the fanbase again. There are 2 obvious ways. Firstly sort out this bloody stadium nonsense. If they're gonna build it buy a site and start doing something. Fans will quite rightly think they are bullshitting until this happens. Secondly start a dialogue with the SBT - much as we know there is animosity, they are currently the biggest representative of our fans, so they need to engage properly with them again.
Fully agree.
Clearly their strategy is to recoup some or all of their investment. If the club were to have it's own financial control at Ricoh or wherever, and then tie that in with success on pitch (getting to PL) then they would probably make most of it back. It looks like they are here long term, and no matter how many protest and NOPM campaigns we have they don't have to leave. I read last year that their cash balance was over £100m. They can run our club at Sixfields on the interest from that alone. The other point worth mentioning is that due to the financial controls now in place in League 1 - SCMP it's called, SISU can not add debt to the club other than interest on existing debt that were there historically. SISU are allowed to grant money to club to pay for players/wages etc but these figures cannot appear as debt in the future.
If they have 100m why do they need to get money to finance the building of a new ground? Just about agree with the rest though.
Then we have CCC/ACL... they have seen our club as a cash cow for years. Making money for little or no effort to get it - although they did build the stadium. But many councils build stadium for their local sports teams because they see the economic benefit to the city as a whole. Trying to cash in on the explosion of money in football is one thing, but draining the life out of the hometown club is another.
Most people will agree that you are wrong here. Cash cow? No money has been taken out. The profits so far have been used to invest in the arena and to pay the mortgage down.
Anyway my concern here is how they want to move forward. They own a 32K purpose built stadium and complex, that without a football team will ultimately die on it's arse, irrespective of how much spin they put on it. So what is their agenda? Do they want control of the club? Why won't they sell to SISU? Now considering your points about the contracts they have in place - a fair price must be agreed. SISU do not deserve the stadium on the cheap, and the taxpayers of Coventry shouldn't be burdened with any shortfall. But why won't they come out and tell us all straight. They have missed a golden opportunity to call SISU out. Put the Ricoh on market for £XXm - how could SISU justify not buying it unless it's more than the cost of a new build. If they know that legally they can't sell it - tell us exactly why.
Firstly the arena isn't running at a loss to what we can see. Isn't it up to SISU to make an offer, or at least try negotiations? CCC would have to put it on the open market by law it seems. The way forward to me is to buy the Higgs share and then negotiate a longer lease. This would be cheaper than buying the freehold and would generate the same income.
I also take issue with the idea of ACL/CCC being the moral compass. The rejection of the CVA was egotistical and downright spiteful. The idea of council good hedge fund bad is absurd considering most councils invest in them. It is not for them to hide behind the pretense of wanting clarity when they are just as secretive and uninformative. Championing this idea of corruption and underhand practices - yet they are they only consistent party in this whole mess. What about all the confidentially clauses that the previous regimes hid behind - are they prepared to expose them all... me thinks not.
Decisions are made by all parties in the council. All parties have agreed so far. And both sides could have done more concerning the CVA. But there isn't enough information yet to make such allegations.
Finally we have the CET. They have done nothing but exacerbate the tension between the 2 parties with their limited reporting and selective 'facts'. Why are they not championing a campaign that would be a hybrid of the KCIC/GCBTR movements? They have probably the most influence of all and yet they choose to stir the pot at every opportunity.
The CET can't win. They have been seen to be on the side of SISU, ACL/CCC and not doing enough. All they can do is report what they see and not take sides. But this will sometimes mean that they are seen as taking sides as that is what the evidence sounds like.
I'm sorry it's just a rambling, but all I want is to see CCFC back in Coventry, preferably at the Ricoh, with a deal that allows our club to have a sustainable future.
It was kind of a tongue in cheek comment to be fair - but to say that the CET is the pantheon of accurate reporting is stretching it a little too far. You have to love how Les Reid was the voice for the fans to begin with, but now as he started to ask certain questions that didn't fit in within certain agendas he is now derided as someone who is not credible. Same for Nikki Sinclaire - everyone was happy to have her on board when the March went through the city, but all of a sudden she isn't credible either.
That's the question I think we all want the answer to. If they don't want to sell then that's fine, but we have to accept that we will never go back to the Ricoh. If they do decide they can make a go of it, are the council going to bail them out every few years? My original question was about what ACL were really making each year, as I believe that we haven't seen an accurate picture. Much in the same way you could argue we haven't seen the effect of the Sixfields move on SISU's books.
Neither party wants to blink first. This is where I'd love to see CET or another body get the Ricoh independently valued. Put a value into the public domain and see where it goes.
Our new poster is making a lot of assumptions about Sisu's funds 100 million ?
If this is the case why did they -
1) mortgage Ryton ?
2) Take out loans against future season tickets ?
3) Not pay the measly amount Fisher described to avoid administration ?
Which led to said points deductions ?
Why are you so desperate to see ACL's books? If we are building a new stadium which seems to be the party line from Sisu/Otium, then you may as well ask to see Microsoft's books because it bears no link to CCFC does it, unless of course you are in the market for buying it.
Why are you so desperate to see ACL's books? If we are building a new stadium which seems to be the party line from Sisu/Otium, then you may as well ask to see Microsoft's books because it bears no link to CCFC does it, unless of course you are in the market for buying it.
I don't see why we have to build one. I can't see how ACL can go on long term, and SISU need what they already have. I just want a negotiation and eventual return. Perhaps if we could see true picture it may speed this up.
I would'nt be surprised if our new poster is fishing on behalf of Sisu. Seems very strange to come on here and only be interested in getting answers from PWKH.
They aren't even that spicey. But they've got more of a kick than the standard procedure beans.
I would'nt be surprised if our new poster is fishing on behalf of Sisu. Seems very strange to come on here and only be interested in getting answers from PWKH.
Your time on here seems to be wasted Ian1779.
I can't see anything happening or to get excited about until after the JR !
I hope for a sisu exit after that.
You obviously are interested in accounts. Have a look at the interest ccfc paid to Arvo which is at the same level as the old Ricoh rent.Then tell me how long that will be sustainable ?
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