Accounts Thread (Was called £1M pounds profit) (10 Viewers)

The Reverend Skyblue · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
How did you judge SISU's future from those accounts?

Well as I said I'm no expert but the main loaning body to the club is Arvo, a SISU subsidiary company,and they have lost more money in that period the accounts cover, and at the end of the report it clearly says that the club will need more investment within the next 6 months.
Well us dropping into league two will have a devastating effect to income so using my commmen sense if they need money soon wait until the effect of paltry crowds will have on accounts and the need to put more money in.
That's why I said we could have many years in league two as they will have to cut budget massively, maybe to just 1 million playing budget, and can you imagine the dross the likes of Slade etc will get for that.
Arvo are our loaning body, linked to SISU hence why I said SISU and its companies

Nick · Mar 2, 2017

The Reverend Skyblue said:
Well as I said I'm no expert but the main loaning body to the club is Arvo, a SISU subsidiary company,and they have had to put more money in over the period in the accounts cover and at the end of the report it clearly says that the club will need more investment within the next 6 months.
Well us dropping into league two will have a devastating effect to income so using my commmen sense if they need money soon wait until the effect of paltry crowds will have on accounts and the need to put more money in.
That's why I said we could have many years in league two as they will have to cut budget massively, maybe to just 1 million playing budget, and can you imagine the dross the likes of Slade etc will get for that.
Arvo are our loaning body, linked to SISU hence why I said SISU and its companies

I can't see them putting money in, they will just keep slashing the costs to suit. Less money in = Less money out.

SISU's accounts showed they got a decent wedge each.

Sub · Mar 2, 2017

You can only keep cutting the money going in to the club to a certain point. At some point you will have to put money into the club or close the club down .....

trevelfarandwide · Mar 2, 2017

AFCCOVENTRY said:
Anyone with the name Donald in their name is a twat. Donald Trump, Donald Duck and now Donald Fisher.

There was a Donald Fisher on Home and Away years ago, and funnily enough, he was a c**t as well.

Interestingly, the only person I've know personally named Donald was a teacher, and yep, twattius Maximus. Must be some curse inherited by anyone named Donald, methinks.

clint van damme · Mar 2, 2017

skybluebeduff said:
Efforts to progress relocating to an alternative home ground for the club continue... HA HA Fuck Off Tim!

my efforts to relocate to the playboy mansion are continuing, it's never going to happen though.

Rusty Trombone · Mar 2, 2017

Player sales have contributed over £2m in each of the last two years, I doubt this income stream is sustainable. Seems to be a big hint in the accounts that a Cat 2 academy won't be a priority in League 2.

Nick · Mar 2, 2017

Rusty Trombone said:
Player sales have contributed over £2m in each of the last two years, I doubt this income stream is sustainable. Seems to be a big hint in the accounts that a Cat 2 academy won't be a priority in League 2.

Yeah, says only 2 teams have them

Also strange we didn't sell players.

better days · Mar 2, 2017

Sub said:
You can only keep cutting the money going in to the club to a certain point. At some point you will have to put money into the club or close the club down .....

At the end of last season most of the senior players who still had a value left when their contracts expired
Romain Vincelot went early this season. I believe he lobbied for the move and the manager allowed him to go for a fee rather than keep an unhappy player. RV has said in a subsequent interview that he thought Coventry was ready to take off but it was sabotaged by the owners due to lack of investment. I suppose he looked around and feared the worst
It's unlikely the fee was significant. The only other player sold during this season was Sordell whose fee may well have been used to pay for the signings that Slade made in January as well as The Yak who was a free agent
However..............
Several of our young players who did well early this season were subject to bids during this January window but Slade had said we wouldn't sell them cheaply. The club stuck to this position possibly because it was part of the agreement when Slade joined
These players are on relatively long contracts so my guess is that the owners may look to sell them when the window reopens after our last game in April
This might be the reason some of them haven't been picked much in recent weeks
Maybe that's the strategy?

Nick · Mar 2, 2017

OSBs comments from here - SBS&L accounts 2016

Comments as follows

- Turnover up 700K to 5.4m
- match income up 517k other incomes up 163k
- reduced direct costs by out sourcing things like shop
- operating loss is 1.876m after player sales that becomes 602k profit before deducting interest costs of 2.4m the bottom line is a loss of 1.869m. improvement from 2015 but both years relied on player sales of 2.5m
- commitment to academy apparently 600k
- interest up from 1.37m to 2.47m in part because of withholding tax (£800k - withholding tax runs at 20% so this must relate to £4m in gross interest)
- mentions Wembley then hints Cat 2 Academy might not be sustainable in L2. Academy was said to be fundamental to CCFC. If in doubt surely that impacts on financial future. No agreement or site at date of reports
- accounts going concern relies on a non contractually binding letter from the owners not to call loans in and to source extra funds (worth of such letters have questioned in a recent court case)
- apparently the club will need further funding in the next 6 months
- Balance sheet 43.4m negative. Total creditors 45.7m
- cash flow from all player sales was 2.5m. That's not just Maddison. in 2015 there were 615k expected in add ons. Going forward it is £200k expected
- cost of player purchases per the cash flow £378K per note 8 £278K cant tell which is right
- interest actually paid out other loans £54717 shareholder loans £25k
- new loan we knew about in 2015 received £530k
- cash flow is positive by 626k (2015 was 128k negative)
- total paid out for rent in P&L acc = 491K that would be Ricoh, Higgs, shop and any other
- wages down by £740k because less accrued for Pensions and less National insurance paid but gross wages down 200K to 4.1m
- payments to directors 215k down by 100k
- interest payable on Arvo & Sisu loans 1.45m up from 1.37m. Interest rates seem to be on the new £530k 10% ARVO on 1.75m 11% and on the £6m 19%. No movement in capital on the major loans from ARVO or SISU investors.

Better but still in the mire. I would think that financial "safety" this year has only been achieved because of the recent Wembley windfall. Forget the CT headline. The club made an overall loss and the balance sheet got worse but just at a slower rate than 2015 and before

Godiva · Mar 2, 2017

Gosford Green said:
Well if SISU are receiving interest payments then they are getting money from the club. Let's see if the accounts state that.

- Interest payable has increased in the period from £1,369,689 to £2,470,973. This is a result of additional withholding tax due on the interest owed to ARVO. During this period a value of £25,000 was paid in interest, so the value in the accounts is predominately accrued interest not paid.
Read more at NEWS: Coventry City FC and Sky Blue Sports and Leisure publish accounts for the year ended 31 May, 2016

Nick · Mar 2, 2017

Random how it relies on them saying "nah, we wont call it in".

Bit too risky on somebodies word, there is a big red button like Trump has

oucho · Mar 2, 2017

Sorry if this has been confirmed above, but what rate of interest are the various SISU entities applying to the loans/debt?
.
And is this a typical rate that an owner would apply to their own business? What is the reason for this rate of interest e.g. tax purposes, paper profitability?

Genuine questions if anyone has a quick answer.

IrishSkyBlue · Mar 2, 2017

so basically in a nutshell were just declining slowly but keeping our heads above water for sisu be happy enough make any bit money try recoup while ruining us and not giving 2 fucks!

Esoterica · Mar 2, 2017

clint van damme said:
my efforts to relocate to the playboy mansion are continuing, it's never going to happen though.

Don't give up. If you tuck it between your legs and wear a padded bikini, you might still make it.

italiahorse · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
I can't see them putting money in, they will just keep slashing the costs to suit. Less money in = Less money out.

SISU's accounts showed they got a decent wedge each.

I prefer Less Money Out = Less Money In
Can't run with the TF theory myself.

fernandopartridge · Mar 2, 2017

Those interest rates are staggering (but not surprising, I suppose the club are lending from the commercial equivalent of Wonga). Also, interesting that in reverse to standard logic, the interest rate increases with the amount borrowed.

Nick · Mar 2, 2017

fernandopartridge said:
Those interest rates are staggering (but not surprising, I suppose the club are lending from the commercial equivalent of Wonga). Also, interesting that in reverse to standard logic, the interest rate increases with the amount borrowed.

One of the reasons I'd prefer to be break even and not them "investing". Yes, people shout for them to put money into the club but it won't be a gift.

Captain Dart · Mar 2, 2017

better days said:
At the end of last season most of the senior players who still had a value left when their contracts expired
Romain Vincelot went early this season. I believe he lobbied for the move and the manager allowed him to go for a fee rather than keep an unhappy player. RV has said in a subsequent interview that he thought Coventry was ready to take off but it was sabotaged by the owners due to lack of investment. I suppose he looked around and feared the worst
It's unlikely the fee was significant. The only other player sold during this season was Sordell whose fee may well have been used to pay for the signings that Slade made in January as well as The Yak who was a free agent
However..............
Several of our young players who did well early this season were subject to bids during this January window but Slade had said we wouldn't sell them cheaply. The club stuck to this position possibly because it was part of the agreement when Slade joined
These players are on relatively long contracts so my guess is that the owners may look to sell them when the window reopens after our last game in April
This might be the reason some of them haven't been picked much in recent weeks
Maybe that's the strategy?

Maybe, flog them off and take the money then sell the club on with no academy or ground.

Sub · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
One of the reasons I'd prefer to be break even and not them "investing". Yes, people shout for them to put money into the club but it won't be a gift.

Thing is nick we will forever be in debt to these owners because they have done what no owners should do. They have driven away the main source of income by treating the customers like shit. It is their own fault nobody elses fault. Shit product less customers less money coming into the club. Repeat shitter product even less customers so on and so on till it goes bang no more club. They will not get their money back with the way they treat the fan base and everyone else they try to do business with.

Suffolk sky blues · Mar 2, 2017

Tim says it's not my fault & I don't get paid.ps new stadium on its way but I can't tell you when.TWAT.

olderskyblue · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
Loss of £1.8M down from £3.3M

You needn't bother now OSB, I've sorted it

tbf, OSB's summary is a tad more detailed than yours nick....

Colin Steins Smile · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
OSBs comments from here - SBS&L accounts 2016

Comments as follows

- Turnover up 700K to 5.4m
- match income up 517k other incomes up 163k
- reduced direct costs by out sourcing things like shop
- operating loss is 1.876m after player sales that becomes 602k profit before deducting interest costs of 2.4m the bottom line is a loss of 1.869m. improvement from 2015 but both years relied on player sales of 2.5m
- commitment to academy apparently 600k
- interest up from 1.37m to 2.47m in part because of withholding tax (£800k - withholding tax runs at 20% so this must relate to £4m in gross interest)
- mentions Wembley then hints Cat 2 Academy might not be sustainable in L2. Academy was said to be fundamental to CCFC. If in doubt surely that impacts on financial future. No agreement or site at date of reports
- accounts going concern relies on a non contractually binding letter from the owners not to call loans in and to source extra funds (worth of such letters have questioned in a recent court case)
- apparently the club will need further funding in the next 6 months
- Balance sheet 43.4m negative. Total creditors 45.7m
- cash flow from all player sales was 2.5m. That's not just Maddison. in 2015 there were 615k expected in add ons. Going forward it is £200k expected
- cost of player purchases per the cash flow £378K per note 8 £278K cant tell which is right
- interest actually paid out other loans £54717 shareholder loans £25k
- new loan we knew about in 2015 received £530k
- cash flow is positive by 626k (2015 was 128k negative)
- total paid out for rent in P&L acc = 491K that would be Ricoh, Higgs, shop and any other
- wages down by £740k because less accrued for Pensions and less National insurance paid but gross wages down 200K to 4.1m
- payments to directors 215k down by 100k
- interest payable on Arvo & Sisu loans 1.45m up from 1.37m. Interest rates seem to be on the new £530k 10% ARVO on 1.75m 11% and on the £6m 19%. No movement in capital on the major loans from ARVO or SISU investors.

Better but still in the mire. I would think that financial "safety" this year has only been achieved because of the recent Wembley windfall. Forget the CT headline. The club made an overall loss and the balance sheet got worse but just at a slower rate than 2015 and before

Thanks to OSB for his review of the end of year company returns. I would be interested in others "take" on the direction of travel that this return shows. For what it's worth my take on it is:
1. The club is operating at a loss and can only maintain a positive financial position through sales of players. The "surplus" in this return possibly gave the club an option to not sell the younger players in the January window. Possibly so higher returns could be sought in the summer window & attributed to the next financial year.
2. The rate of interest charged to the club by other SISU owned companies is significantly higher than could be sought via a commercial route.
3. The return stands at circa 1.4% of debt.
4.It would be interesting to see who is classed as an employee within the figures & contributions to pensions.
5. Payments to Directors. Given that we currently only have 2 listed, it will be interesting to see what next years figures show.
6. The clubs business model of utilising sales of talented academy graduates has only 1 - 2 years of life left, assuming that the club is unable to maintain cat 2 status.
Overall, I can't see the club being a going concern if the academy folds. I would expect that with the new housing plan for Warwickshire due to be announced soon covering 2018 onwards that Ryton would be an asset realised at that point, if the club was wound up.

shmmeee · Mar 2, 2017

oucho said:
Sorry if this has been confirmed above, but what rate of interest are the various SISU entities applying to the loans/debt?
.
And is this a typical rate that an owner would apply to their own business? What is the reason for this rate of interest e.g. tax purposes, paper profitability?

Genuine questions if anyone has a quick answer.

Think the other thread said 3 loans at 10%, 11% and 19%.

I don't care what people say, it's time for the club to go pop. No way anyone is going to take on this basket case the state it's in.

What a mess. Given a clean slate less than a decade ago and have overseen two relegations, more than halved the customer base and added almost £60m of debt.

Wouldn't trust them with a lemonade stand let alone a football club. Absolute losers.

Gosford Green · Mar 2, 2017

Nick said:
One of the reasons I'd prefer to be break even and not them "investing". Yes, people shout for them to put money into the club but it won't be a gift.

And this has clearly benefited the club up to now. League 2 and probably the worse team in the whole football league. That's all ok then, great way to run a football club.

chiefdave · Mar 2, 2017

It comes down to the difference between a business and a football club doesn't it really? If you view it as a business you could take these accounts as positive. Although you have the ever decreasing circles argument - that more cuts will be needed and the same pattern repeats every year.

But very clearly if you judge things on the basis of performance as a football club its one disaster to the next.

afan4life · Mar 2, 2017

"League One status is the priority focus for the club"

Tim, please sit down I have some grave news to tell you!!!!!!!!!!!

oucho · Mar 2, 2017

shmmeee said:
Think the other thread said 3 loans at 10%, 11% and 19%.

I don't care what people say, it's time for the club to go pop. No way anyone is going to take on this basket case the state it's in.

What a mess. Given a clean slate less than a decade ago and have overseen two relegations, more than halved the customer base and added almost £60m of debt.

Wouldn't trust them with a lemonade stand let alone a football club. Absolute losers.

Anyone who buys the club from SISU will come do a deal whereby SISU get paid a percentage of the debt, just to walk away and give up the rest of it. The sticking point, of course, is what that percentage should be.

We're worth nothing as an asset but SISU cannot simply wave bye-bye to a balance sheet asset of £40m+ - taking a 100% haircut isn't on their agenda. In reality the write down will always be huge but they're in damage limitation mode and are holding out for something better than nothing.

Pete in Portugal · Mar 3, 2017

Captain Dart said:
Maybe, flog them off and take the money then sell the club on with no academy or ground.

That's the way I see it. Sisu appear to be intent on cutting their losses by realising the value of the last few remaining assets - the young players plus Ryton - plus the gamble of getting compensation from JR2.

Then they will either find a buyer, or more likely, put the club into administration with the debts to Sisu and Arvo intact. The timecale is unknown, but at the moment, the end of next season looks a strong possibility. In the meantime, they will continue to cut costs in an attempt to break even. The slow death of the club will therefore continue and fans will continue to vote with their feet and with their wallets.

Accounts Thread (Was called £1M pounds profit) (10 Viewers)

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