I know you want there to be an illegal action - but quoting the law doesn't make your dream any more real.
But maybe you have proof?
TRANSACTIONS DEFRAUDING CREDITORS
PART 7
February 2010
TRANSACTIONS DEFRAUDING CREDITORS
31.4B.138 Transactions defrauding creditors - general
Essentially, the purpose of the provisions in the Act relating to transactions defrauding creditors are to enable the setting aside of transactions at an undervalue where the intention of the transaction was to put assets out of the reach of creditors.
I know you want there to be an illegal action - but quoting the law doesn't make your dream any more real.
But maybe you have proof?
Given all that has happened, I think you'd have to be wilfully blind not to find it all just a little bit suspicious though.
I know, call me naive, but can't we have a double or quits and investigate everything from the point Richardson bought into the club (expressly against Derrick Robins's wishes)?
Just to prove everybody has been nothing but whiter than white, of course.
The problem is of course much like SISU's application for a judicial review is unhelpful if it's without foundation due to the time it takes to process, so is something like this.
Honestly not sure what's left other than to rip it all up and let it be a free-for-all where everyone who wants to, sues each other!
I know you want there to be an illegal action - but quoting the law doesn't make your dream any more real.
But maybe you have proof?
If there has been anything illegal, then proof would only be likely to come if the CVA is rejected.
Given all that has happened, I think you'd have to be wilfully blind not to find it all just a little bit suspicious though.
On the wider point, I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying that if there have been odd things going on in the past, it therefore follows that the present should have a blind eye turned to it.
The last set of signed acounts show an asset we are told by the administraors isn't any longer there.
It's not my dream, it's a reported fact, isn't it?
What exactly do you want to achieve?
I want the club and team to stabilize and find some footing again. It's been long enough.
I want the team to succeed on the pitch, players to play without the distraction of fans fighting themself and the owners.
I want the club to start making money and become independant of the owners - if not at the Ricoh then at its own stadium in Coventry.
I want it to happen as soon as possible, so sisu can make a profit and sell it all.
What do you want?
If so can he prove it was moved with the intent of defrauding the creditors? Apparantly not - he has a duty to report anything like that to the court.
At this moment in time hate to say it but minus 15 point is the last of our concerns. Relegation seems likely anyway we are unable to recruit because of this embargo, deliberately done imo to put a gun to heads
Ah yes the invisible one..
I find it very difficult to envisage a positive future for the club under its current ownership.
This is particularly so because I simply cannot understand the rationale for the move to Northampton. I can see why SISU may wish to build a new stadium, but in the interim period, I cannot understand why they would not do everything possible to stay at the Ricoh.
Instead they have appeared (from what I am aware of) to make absolutely no effort to make that happen - because in TF's statements, ACL told them they wouldn't negotiate further in February.
Given the amount of revenue that will be sacrificed (deliberate choice of word) by the move to Northampton, I'd have thought that they'd move heaven and earth to persuade ACL to give them a three (or five) year deal - but no.
So when I cannot understand their stated motivations and while I rule out insanity, I have to be suspicious that there is a different agenda that I am not aware of.
So in short, I want financial pressure, political pressure and media pressure on SISU to persuade them that the sensible option is to cut their loses and sell.
But what if it really is as simple as - till this morning - ACL would have nothing to do with sisu?
ACL have been very open about their agenda: They want sisu out. In that atsmophere I can see why a groundshare in (e.g.) Northampton would be the only option. If say sisu had kept coming back to ACL and begging for a three year deal - as they asked for long ago and was refused - and not seeked for a groundshare option, then they would have been totally at the mercy of ACL.
Try make a decision tree and see what you come up with.
This morning is the very first time ACL have openly said they are willing to talk to sisu/TF. It may be too late, but maybe ACL will agree to a symbolic rent as the club will need to pay Northampton a break fee.
Then we are about the same level, though I've never worked in banking.
So I assume you - as I have - in many occasions have had to listen to the experts in regards to your own company. The experts being accountants, auditors and lawyers.
Just like TF.
If you and I listened and never took deliberate illegal actions, even knowing there would never be an investigation, then why would TF do something illegal full knowing an investigation would be more than likely?
Isn't he only obliged to report that back to court if the event transpired within 6 months of the date of the application for administration? Again, this from memory!?!
Holdings & Limited are different legal entities.
The law regarding asset stripping is specifically designed to stop the transfer of assets out of a company, leaving it with only liabilities.
I'm not an accountant either, but I've run my own business, worked in banking, and I've some experience of financial laws and regulations. I can also read accounts (though not to the forensic level of others on here). Saying that the accounts are a bit of a 'mess' doesn't usually cut much ice with the courts.
I'm not on my own in thinking that something extremely dodgy has gone on. Smarter people than me have their doubts too. Frankly, I'd be hugely surprised if there hasn't been something going on, but the only way we'll really know is if there's a proper investigation. I hope we'll get one.
He is an officer of the court and has a duty to report any illegal action he encounter. Sisu are NOT his clients, so there are no obligations to them.
That is an excellent question.
My thought is that he might have done it either because he's been told to do it, or was naive enough to do it, or thought that if he could sling enough mud about he might never be caught doing it, or simply had to do it to preserve SISU's hold on the company and has taken an almighty gamble.
Any of those things are possible. My gut feeling is that it's the last one that is the most likely; my opinion is that I don't think TF thought it would go this far. Indeed, he may well be right!
In truth though I'm speculating as much as you, but I wouldn't be dissuaded from taking someone on in court over something so important, on the basis that they might have already thought it all through. I'd look at the merits of the case and take it from there.
This case looks simple from that point of view. There were assets in CCFC Ltd that are no longer there, yet the liabilities remain. Other than saying the accounts are a mess, TF seems to have no reasonable explanation. That merits investigation, imho.
To misquote Queen - Invisible Man
I'm the invisible (wo)man,
I'm the invisible (wo)man,
Incredible how you can,
See right through me.
To misquote Queen - Invisible Man
I'm the invisible (wo)man,
I'm the invisible (wo)man,
Incredible how you can,
See right through me.
I never stated they were his clients. Not at all. I simply stated he was obliged - from memory - to report back any such activities that occurred within 6 months of the date of application.
On one hand, you claim you're not an accountant, nor lawyer. Then you seem to know the associated law very well - or assert with a confidence that sits at odds with your claims of ignorance.
Which is it?
Not at all, quite the opposite...
I don't think it would be helpful to us to focus on just one part however. It all needs flushing out if we're to move forward.
Is a truth though that the delays while things process (even if they exonerate people) aren't helpful to the immediate issue.
Again boils down to a price worth paying or not.
Duh, duh, duh, another club bites the dust.
So in short: He is either stupid or a criminel? And a stooge on top of that.
I am sorry, but it's when you are that disrespectful your judgement gets clouded.
Ask yourself this: What would you feel if there was an investigation and nothing major was found and in the proces the club had missed out on a few good players in the transfer window and even started at -15 pts. All for nothing?
So in short: He is either stupid or a criminel? And a stooge on top of that.
I am sorry, but it's when you are that disrespectful your judgement gets clouded.
Ask yourself this: What would you feel if there was an investigation and nothing major was found and in the proces the club had missed out on a few good players in the transfer window and even started at -15 pts. All for nothing?
Why can't SISU file accounts on time? I know we're blocked because of the Admin but how many have we had before because of the accounts! (the question is rhetorical by the way)
I have said consistently on here that Northampton Town and David Cardoza are the weak links in this and all pressure should be put there to get them to pull away from this ground share.
I am still not certain any agreement has finally been signed or not, but money talks and should be pushed their way to get them to pull out if all else fails.
Let's look at the evidence in front of us......
There are 18 years worth (minus current outstanding) of accounts that have been signed off by various Officers of the Club and two diffrent firms of Auditors that state that the playing activities of the Football Club are within Limited, along with associated incomes and assets.
All of the statements within these sets of accounts back this up, as there is information on income which includes gate receipts, sponsorship etc, staff numbers which includes the playing squad, the statements by the Directors and the statements by the Auditors.
Then suddenly at the same time as the club (SISU effectively) start to refuse to pay ACL the legally contracted rent owed to them, the accounts are suddenly 'in a mess' and actually all the assets are in Holdings (also with 18 years worth of signed accounts stating otherwise).
This is a monsterously big smoking gun, and I refuse to beleive that 18 years worth of signed accounts are in fact incorrect. And when I say incorrect I mean totally incorrect. Not just a slight mistatment of the trading purpose but all of the income and expenditure, staff numbers, directors statements, assets and liabilities are all totally wrong.
I would think it was quite obviously an attempt to defraud creditors and is shockingly brazen. I expect there are two firms of Auditors who are either very worried or extremely annoyed that their services to date are being questioned, as they are direct liable for signing off of mis-stated accounts. Tim Fisher is making a very bold (or very stupid) statement by stating that the accounts are incorrect.
The sooner these people are out of our club the better as I am ashamed to have them associated with it's name and history.
Not One Penny More!
Let's look at the evidence in front of us......
There are 18 years worth (minus current outstanding) of accounts that have been signed off by various Officers of the Club and two diffrent firms of Auditors that state that the playing activities of the Football Club are within Limited, along with associated incomes and assets.
All of the statements within these sets of accounts back this up, as there is information on income which includes gate receipts, sponsorship etc, staff numbers which includes the playing squad, the statements by the Directors and the statements by the Auditors.
Then suddenly at the same time as the club (SISU effectively) start to refuse to pay ACL the legally contracted rent owed to them, the accounts are suddenly 'in a mess' and actually all the assets are in Holdings (also with 18 years worth of signed accounts stating otherwise).
This is a monsterously big smoking gun, and I refuse to beleive that 18 years worth of signed accounts are in fact incorrect. And when I say incorrect I mean totally incorrect. Not just a slight mistatment of the trading purpose but all of the income and expenditure, staff numbers, directors statements, assets and liabilities are all totally wrong.
I would think it was quite obviously an attempt to defraud creditors and is shockingly brazen. I expect there are two firms of Auditors who are either very worried or extremely annoyed that their services to date are being questioned, as they are direct liable for signing off of mis-stated accounts. Tim Fisher is making a very bold (or very stupid) statement by stating that the accounts are incorrect.
The sooner these people are out of our club the better as I am ashamed to have them associated with it's name and history.
Not One Penny More!
I'm sorry but I could turn that argument right on it's head. You hold Fisher and SISU in so much respect (in this regard, I'm not accusing you of being a SISU-apologist here) that you're completely ignoring the merits of the case. You've convinced yourself that they've done no wrong on the simple basis that they wouldn't have taken that chance/been so stupid.
I am not so convinced.
How would I feel if the CVA is voted down, and we took a 15-point hit, and there was an in-depth investigation that showed SISU have acted properly all along?
Firstly, I'd be astonished.
And after that I'd still consider that we'd done the right thing. Because from where I'm sitting SISU are taking this club away from its home and into the abyss. If FFP was going to hurt us at the Ricoh, it's going to kill us at Sixfields. There's no plausible plan to come back. Five years in the wilderness, at least.
Anything that gives us a chance of avoiding that fate is worth pursuing to my mind.
But let me ask you this also: If an investigation didn't find anything major to incriminate either Fisher or sisu ... what will you do then?
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