ACL Shoot themselves in the foot & The Fans in the Head (11 Viewers)

Grendel · Apr 11, 2013

Don't worry James my lawyer thinks I am in the clear.

Given the amount of defamatory things said about our current owners it is somewhat ironic don't you think.

I must admit I actually confused one Northern club with another who were as we both I am sure know were threatening to move grounds until they got their own way. That said the club originally mentioned were of course disputing payment as they negotiated a vastly superior deal.

Compared to posting such things as SISU have pocketed money, paid ex managers to say nice things about them, having an administrator on their side it pales into insignificance.

Out of interest having discovered the £1 million mentioned in the article why didn't you enlighten us all as to what Doncaster ended up with as part of the deal to take a 99 year lease? You clearly know don't you.

Grendel · Apr 11, 2013

What you forgot to mention

Your memory must have slipped James because you must have known the real Doncaster deal as I assume you read what I have now read.

So who has the best deal - us or them - oh and do consider the £32 million stadium was Council Funded;

Here is the deal;

- 99 year lease agreement - all assets transferred for £1
- £100,000 per year rent
- Annual rent reduced to £10,000 per year for first 9 years to account for existing naming rights agreement
- A wide range of annual Community obligations included as consideration
- Responsibility for all running costs with exception of insurance contribution
- £75,000 per year contribution from Doncaster Council to insurances
- Full operational control
- A cheque to the Club from the Council for £400,000 for refurbishment of the Keepmoat stadium
- Stadium to maintained in a reasonable condition, fair wear and tear expected
- Permission required from Council for significant changes to structure
- Permission required from Council for changes of use
- A £7000 a year lease for the club training ground
- All food and beverage and stadium income for the club's revenues 365 days a year

James Smith · Apr 11, 2013

Grendel said:
Don't worry James my lawyer thinks I am in the clear.

Given the amount of defamatory things said about our current owners it is somewhat ironic don't you think.

I must admit I actually confused one Northern club with another who were as we both I am sure know were threatening to move grounds until they got their own way. That said the club originally mentioned were of course disputing payment as they negotiated a vastly superior deal.

Compared to posting such things as SISU have pocketed money, paid ex managers to say nice things about them, having an administrator on their side it pales into insignificance.

Out of interest having discovered the £1 million mentioned in the article why didn't you enlighten us all as to what Doncaster ended up with as part of the deal to take a 99 year lease? You clearly know don't you.

Actually I don't know the full details of the deal for their long lease at the Keepmoat, thank you for enlightening us, I do hope you will provide evidence to back up your claim. I do always try to provide some evidence to support any claim I make so that people don't think I'm making it up as I go along.

psgm1 · Apr 11, 2013

GaryJones said:
ACL pushed Sisu into sending the club into Admin and in turn resulting in the points deduction which effectively ends our season - If ACL had waited until the end of the season we might have made the play-offs and promotion which would have resulted in more money and a better chance of the club being able to meet ACLs demands over the preceeding seasons.
"We couldnt take the risk that Sisu wouldnt liquidate the club - thats why we did it" what a load of bollocks - why would Sisu liquidate the club completely?
This season is all but over for the fans and what we now probably ALL are doing is adding the 10 points back on to see where we would have finished! Whats the betting that we defy the odds and finish in the "virtual" top six?
Just our luck...............

Yeah nasty old acl. How dare they allow the club to play for free for a year.

Yeah its acl's fault for not investing in the team for the past two seasons. Its acl's fault for running up £60 million of debt!

WHAT A FUCK KNUCKLE!

The arena all told has cost 1.3 mill a year - now considering sisu claimed the club was debt free when they took the shares (without payingfor them - nasty old acl for not paying for the shares - oh wait a minute its sisu!)

and since sisu have been around for 5 years at most acl has cost £5* 1.3 mill which gives £6.5 million - so WHERE has the other £53.5+ million of debt come from?

Nasty old acl -- Try using BRAIN!!

Sisu are the root of ALL the current troubles - get over it!

Spencer · Apr 11, 2013

James Smith said:
Well the comments you made in post 46 regarding a football club (I won't name them here so as not to be seen as repeating the defamatory statement) and their situation before they were offered the new long lease are what I'm referring to. You implied that a football club had refused to pay their rent and had "taken on" the management company of the stadium at which they were tenants. This could be seen as you suggesting that this club had deliberately decided not to pay their rent and to force their landlord to agree to their terms. This could be seen as defamatory because and I defer to the BBC for a good description of this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/page/guidelines-law-defamation/

I'm sure that you will have something to back the statement up in post #46 because otherwise it could be seen as defamatory. If I was looking to do business with a firm and read that the firm was refusing or had in the past refused to pay their debts, I might get a negative image of that firm and decide not to trade with them. Do you see what I'm getting at? Oh and by the way that something you hope to use as evidence doesn't include someone's post on this website unless it contains a link to something written by the Stadium Management company, Doncaster Rovers, Doncaster Council or someone writing on their behalf. There is a real danger that if you quote someone else who hasn't referenced their statements and those turn out to be defamatory, that you will just be repeating the defamatory statement which isn't a good thing. Was your lawyer concerned that your post contained potentially defamatory statements and wanted me to back this legal eagle up? Or was she or he concerned that they couldn't see what was potentially defamatory in what you wrote?

I would hope that you have at least been advised of the definition of defamation by them, as it would be prudent for them to do so if they are supposed to be helping you understand the legal implications of your actions. I won't need to explain the potential ramifications for certain other people of your post, as your lawyer will be able to do that far better than me. Of course if you have evidence to back up your claims then this is all academic and you won't hesitate to post that or at the very least a link to it on here.

I'm not a lawyer and I've never claimed to be one, but as part of my degree I studied Media Law* and worked in the media for a few years. I may be a bit rusty on all this and if there is a solicitor or more likely a barrister who would like to correct me on any of this please feel free.

*combined studies degree which allowed you to choose the modules you wished to study.

Ah so I see you've looked at my references, would you care as the person who made the claim of a cheque like to back up the statement with some evidence of this please?

It's not unknown for football fans to be on the receiving end of a solicitors letter when they post something about directors or officials of their club that they can't substantiate. Didn't a former CCFC director and chairman in the guise of Mike McGinnity do just that for a comment that was only on a message board for a few hours.
http://coventrycity.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=885&p=2&stid=8366059

Sheffield Wednesday fans and their message board made it as far as the high court in an attempt to unmask the identities of those who had posted potentially defamatory statements. The owner of the website was the one who was hauled into court to be made to reveal the identities of the posters.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/oct/22/news.blogging

Ultimately the case was dropped but I don't know why.
http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=67950

Did you enjoy writing that? Because (and to avoid any legal pitfalls) in my opinion, it came over like you're trying a little too hard.

Grendel · Apr 11, 2013

Spencer said:
Did you enjoy writing that? Because (and to avoid any legal pitfalls) in my opinion, it came over like you're trying a little too hard.

But not trying hard enough to answer which football club actually got the best deal.

sky blue john · Apr 11, 2013

Grendel said:
But not trying hard enough to answer which football club actually got the best deal.

I don't know why you keep bringing up this example because it has no relevence to ccfc's situation !!!
The counsel were making a loss and wanted shot of their stadium !!!

coundonskyblue · Apr 11, 2013

<p>

Grendel said:
But not trying hard enough to answer which football club actually got the best deal.

Grendel, do you not agree that property prices are dictated by supply and demand? Therefore the circumstances surrounding our club can be completely different to another club?

Jack Griffin · Apr 11, 2013

Grendel said:
Your memory must have slipped James because you must have known the real Doncaster deal as I assume you read what I have now read.

So who has the best deal - us or them - oh and do consider the £32 million stadium was Council Funded;

Here is the deal;

- 99 year lease agreement - all assets transferred for £1
- £100,000 per year rent
- Annual rent reduced to £10,000 per year for first 9 years to account for existing naming rights agreement
- A wide range of annual Community obligations included as consideration
- Responsibility for all running costs with exception of insurance contribution
- £75,000 per year contribution from Doncaster Council to insurances
- Full operational control
- A cheque to the Club from the Council for £400,000 for refurbishment of the Keepmoat stadium
- Stadium to maintained in a reasonable condition, fair wear and tear expected
- Permission required from Council for significant changes to structure
- Permission required from Council for changes of use
- A £7000 a year lease for the club training ground
- All food and beverage and stadium income for the club's revenues 365 days a year

Please identify your source?

Your statements have no substance without independant confirmation, they're just so much blather..

Grendel · Apr 11, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
Please identify your source?

Your statements have no substance without independant confirmation, they're just so much blather..

Are you saying I made it up?

This could be construed as defemation I believe. James?

James Smith · Apr 11, 2013

Grendel said:
But not trying hard enough to answer which football club actually got the best deal.

You are avoiding posting any actual evidence to back up any of your claims. Before I could consider answering your questions you would need provide any evidence to back up your statements and claims.

I could tell you that I had won the lottery in every state in America and thanks to some shrewd investing in the stock market both over their and over here I had more money than Warren Buffet and Eric Schmidt. It wouldn't be true and I doubt many people would believe me unless I provided proof of my statements and claims.

Sick Boy · Apr 11, 2013

It is interesting that no evidence is required for some of the outlandish conspiracy theories which have been posted on here!

James Smith · Apr 11, 2013

Grendel said:
Are you saying I made it up?

This could be construed as defemation I believe. James?

Nope - if you wanted to claim he or she had defamed you, you would need to prove that what he or she said about you was factually inaccurate. As you have yet to back a claim or statement you've made on this thread up with evidence then as far as I can see he hasn't defamed you. It should be noted again that I am not a lawyer, however as you say you've got your own, they should really be telling you this stuff.

Sick Boy · Apr 12, 2013

Have you been using google translate for your Latin, James?

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

Sick Boy said:
Have you been using google translate for your Latin, James?

Yes, as I mentioned in post #125

James Smith said:
Nope and I didn't always work in a shop! As for the Latin, Google Translate is a wonderful thing. :claping hands:

Would have been Klingon if I could have found a suitable translater that is easy to use.

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

So Grendel now that you're back from holiday and have had a few days, is there any chance you will post any evidence to back up any of the claims you've made on this thread?

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

James Smith said:
So Grendel now that you're back from holiday and have had a few days, is there any chance you will post any evidence to back up any of the claims you've made on this thread?

Strangely a whole host of claims have been made regarding SISU and yet the source is not required.

I detailed the Doncaster rental arrangements in full - £10,000 a year at the moment.

If you think I made it up just because you cannot find it so what. You've developed a new trend though as now "Show me your evidence" seems a new catchphrase amongst certain people.

Clue on the Doncaster deal -- it was on a website not too far from home and was an open letter from their chairman.

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

Oh and the article appeared on Boxing day as well.

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

Grendel said:
Strangely a whole host of claims have been made regarding SISU and yet the source is not required.

Those claims were not made by me.

Grendel said:
I detailed the Doncaster rental arrangements in full - £10,000 a year at the moment.

If you think I made it up just because you cannot find it so what. You've developed a new trend though as now "Show me your evidence" seems a new catchphrase amongst certain people.

Yes you detailed them but without a link to the source. I don't think you made it up it's just that without a source we only have your word for it and for a lot of people that doesn't make it a fact. I provide links to my sources in my posts so that people can see what I'm referring to without having to guess where it came from.

Grendel said:
Clue on the Doncaster deal -- it was on a website not too far from home and was an open letter from their chairman.

So you're not going to provide one then?

Jack Griffin · Apr 12, 2013

Grendel said:
Oh and the article appeared on Boxing day as well.

LOL, the hunt for the elusive estimated facts goes on.. I'm not looking for it Grenduffy, its your problem to find it.

All I can conclude is that nothing you've said so far is proven..

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
LOL, the hunt for the elusive estimated facts goes on.. I'm not looking for it Grenduffy, its your problem to find it.

All I can conclude is that nothing you've said so far is proven..

I don't have to prove it do you think I made it up?

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

Oh I'm bored with this;

www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-261212-559871.aspx

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

Grendel said:
Oh I'm bored with this;

www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-261212-559871.aspx

I think I need a lie down, that is actually a link to a source And you've copied it perfectly - thank you.

One down several to go

So about your claims in post #46 any luck on those yet?

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

I'm going to buy a lottery ticket, I'm clearly getting lucky today.

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

James Smith said:
I think I need a lie down, that is actually a link to a source And you've copied it perfectly - thank you.

One down several to go

So about your claims in post #46 any luck on those yet?

Nope I see many people make claims and I am not being singled out thanks. Found one other club that recently was refusing to pay rent though. I am finding more details as the article is a bit confusing. £650,000 in arrears it seems.

James Smith · Apr 12, 2013

Grendel said:
Nope I see many people make claims and I am not being singled out thanks. Found one other club that recently was refusing to pay rent though. I am finding more details as the article is a bit confusing. £650,000 in arrears it seems.

Ah so you're letting me and everyone else come to our own conclusions as to the veracity of your other claims and statements.

I've just realised that you might not actually have read the document I referenced (https://www.doncaster.gov.uk/db/chamber/default.asp?Nav=Report&ReportID=14161) about the Keepmoat stadium, because the I only saw the club webpage from your link today when you posted it. I note that the CCFC page makes no reference to the fact that the stadium through the management company were making a loss which was costing the council around £300k a year and was projected to continue to do so in the future.

Grendel · Apr 12, 2013

James Smith said:
Ah so you're letting me and everyone else come to our own conclusions as to the veracity of your other claims and statements.

I've just realised that you might not actually have read the document I referenced (https://www.doncaster.gov.uk/db/chamber/default.asp?Nav=Report&ReportID=14161) about the Keepmoat stadium, because the I only saw the club webpage from your link today when you posted it. I note that the CCFC page makes no reference to the fact that the stadium through the management company were making a loss which was costing the council around £300k a year and was projected to continue to do so in the future.

The point is though they have the opportunity to make it profitable and it is in their hands. To even try and make an argument our deal is better than this would be arguing purely for arguments sake. All parking and beverage revenues is theirs. Losses ultimately are not relevant under FPP rules revenue is king. We are disadvantaged.

Sky Blue Kid · Apr 13, 2013

Jack Griffin said:

LOL, the hunt for the elusive estimated facts goes on..

Click to expand...

Jack Griffin said:
I'm not looking for it Grenduffy, its your problem to find it.

All I can conclude is that nothing you've said so far is proven..

Lol, nice 1 Jack, at last somebody else sees Grenduffy as he truly is..."Estimated Facts" hahaha

covman · Apr 13, 2013

Sky Blue Kid said:
Lol, nice 1 Jack, at last somebody else sees Grenduffy as he truly is..."Estimated Facts" hahaha

Poor old Grendel. He really is a little unintelligible..

Sky Blue Kid · Apr 13, 2013

Spencer

Youth Team Player

Join DateMar 2013Posts198
50 Like Received In 27 Posts

Originally Posted by procdoc

This is the last I'll say on this. The amount of times you've dismissed people on here with one sentence answers far surpasses nearly everyone else'a. You always resort to sarcasm and trying to put other posters down. I don't actually disagree with everything you say such as your recent Tim Fisher thread. Surely you can see why posters get so riled with you? You constantly try and talk down to people, including me. Anyway have nice bank holiday and I'm sure we both hope for 3 points tomorrow, apologies for saying you're not a real Cov fan, just got caught up in the moment! I'm sure we will be disagreeing soon again but until then PUSB

I've just read this thread and it seems to me that Grendel offers reasoned arguments for his opinion. Fair enough, it doesn't accord with yours, but that doesn't make it unreasoned.

If anything, it strikes me that your only argument is based around, "SISU is bad."

If I was a sarcastic man I could have great fun with your arguments - but as you say sarcasm is the lowest form if wit!

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ACL Shoot themselves in the foot & The Fans in the Head (11 Viewers)

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